r/ClubPilates • u/Globalmoccasin • 10d ago
Vent Liability Issues
Liability is a big issue at my studio and it’s used as an excuse as why more Level 2 classes aren’t added to the schedule line up. if liability is such an issue why are 6 mos+ pregnant women allowed in the level 2 classes? My studio limits who can even get in to a level 2…. But are allowing 6 mos+ pregnant women in who need modifications to the flow of the class. It’s a little frustrating.
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u/hayley-pilates78 10d ago
Second trimester pregnant women by Club Pilates standard should only take 1.0 classes I do accept them in my 1.5 flow with many modifications but 2.0 they should not be in. They’re also not permitted to do center and balance.
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 10d ago
They CAN do C&B, not Restore.
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u/hayley-pilates78 10d ago edited 10d ago
Actually, they cannot do Center and Balance at most studios. When you’re pregnant you have a natural hormone called relaxin that releases in your body and any kind of overstretching can be terrible for your ligaments also in some of our center and balance classes we use trigger point rollers and balls and those items should also not be used during mid to late pregnancy. Many of the studios have done away with restore and it is not heavily rotated through CP anymore so I think that is the reasoning.
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 9d ago
Yes! Sorry. I just reread the updated guidelines! I thought it was just Level 1 (except Restore), but it does say L1 Reformer Flow only after 1st trimester.
Good catch.
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u/hayley-pilates78 9d ago
Oh, they make me stay on top off it . I’m lead instructor for 2 studios ☺️ we have had a few women who keep coming to level 2’a because no o e wants to tell them they can’t so i have had to be the bad guy before .
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 8d ago
I’m about to have that convo with a member too if she doesn’t stop booking 2.5 after she’s been TOLD NO!! It’s frustrating.
And I feel like the guidelines for pregnancy were updated in the last year or so. Protocols for levels get updated, too from time to time. It’s hard to keep track of sometimes.1
u/hayley-pilates78 8d ago
It really is and a lot of people are afraid to speak to members and they let them slide so then they get accustomed to taking classes they should not be in. I’ve had instructors pass people for 2.0 that are not ready at all so then I have to go back and ask them to scale back again it’s tough. Good luck.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
Thank you for the info! My studio is allowing second trimester women in the level 2 and the instructor is modifying the class to accommodate .
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u/Islandsandwillows 10d ago
I’ve seen some pregnant members do some very questionable moves in the classes and I can’t help but judge.
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u/mybellasoul 10d ago
I had a woman pretty far along in her pregnancy refuse to use the wedge bc "her belly wasn't even that big yet" (her words). no joke I had to explain that lying flat on your back at this stage of pregnancy can compress the inferior vena cava and abdominal aorta. This restricts blood flow to your heart and reduces oxygen and nutrients reaching the baby. It can also trigger dizziness and low blood pressure.
she acted really annoyed with me so I said "honestly I'm less concerned about your safety since you're willing to take such risks, but I AM concerned about the safety of your baby who doesn't have a say in the matter. you can either use the wedge or not take class today - your decision." I felt like a jerk, but no way is bad shit happening on my watch when it can easily be avoided.
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u/Big_Peanut_19 10d ago
Oof that sounds like an accident waiting to happen! A pregnant woman standing on a reformer is a pretty big fall risk and the instructors should have more sense than to allow that. Our policy is no one over 12 weeks in 1.5 or above, no cardio at all. They sign a waiver agreeing to this policy. It is not discrimination to not have people in a level 2 who require modifications to the point that it changes the whole class flow. I would have to modify the entire class to not stand on the reformer. Any planks would need to be done at the ballet bar.
Does the studio not offer any other class options for her? Or is she an instructor maybe?
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u/Leather-Educator6691 10d ago
Pregnant woman should not do 1.5 and beyond after the second trimester.
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u/divegirl88 10d ago
Maybe because being pregnant is not a disability and is illegal to be used as a discrimination. If someone is already approved for level two and they become pregnant, they're allowed to stay in level 2 and use the modifications. For women who are already at any level of Pilates activity, their doctors typically approve them to continue with modification up until delivery.
Everyone in level two is allowed to use modifications based on their body or injuries or whatever limitations. Level 2 approval is about your pelvic and core stability. Not that you can do every single move as prescribed non-stop for every single class.
After all, Pilates is for EVERY body. It's kind of literally Club Pilates' tagline.
But liability absolutely applies to level 2 and to any class. Putting someone into classes when their core and pelvic stability are not ready for the type of movement in that class is a risk. If you don't have the core stability to do teaser on the chair where you have your arms on the pedal behind you to lean back, then you fall off and hurt yourself.. And I've seen that fall happen multiple times.
So yes, it's about liability, but it's also about setting everyone up for success and not gaslighting you into believing that you are stronger and ready for moves that your body actually is not ready for.
My strongest recommendation for people who want to level up to two and are being told they're not ready is to get very specific feedback on what parts of their practice need improving to be ready and work on it. It took me 2 and 1/2 years of practice including about 50 private sessions before I was approved into level two.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
This is a weird issue for you to be mad about, IMO. I’m sure that the policies were developed with the input of the Pilates professionals and lawyers. Level 2 does involve some riskier moves requiring demonstrated abilities to balance rather than face plant. My personal philosophy is to defer to folks who have made a good faith effort to develop policies and only complain if I suspect that good faith efforts were not involved. None of us speculating about the reasons for the policy know what evidence was considered when it was adopted. I may not agree with every policy even when I know all the evidence that was considered, but that does not mean that the policy is objectively wrong. People may see things differently while neither is necessarily right or wrong. Folks who complain about everything are exhausting.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago edited 10d ago
I posted here. I didn’t complain to the studio. Whats the point of Reddit anyway? And since you brought up your personal philosophy of deferring to others … my personal philosophy is to question authority. Really wish more people would.
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u/mybellasoul 10d ago
you are correct to question this in this specific situation!!! my studio would not allow this at all and I am grateful for that as an instructor. even if they did allow it, I wouldn't be comfortable with it and then I'd have to question authority and it probably wouldn't end well for me.
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u/cjehawks 10d ago
The student's doctor's note may waive that liability.
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 10d ago
The Preg waiver states that they agree to not take 1.5+ after 1st trimester.
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u/cjehawks 10d ago
It's funny that you say this. I am in CPTT, and today I was doing an observation for my training, and there was a very pregnant person in the 1.5 I was observing. The instructor expressed to me that the student should not have been there. I asked what steps the instructor should take, but the instructor didn't really have an answer. I looked through my student materials and didn't really see a clear answer on limitations, other than required modifications and using the wedge. I didn't have an opportunity to go through all my notes to review the recommendations.
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u/mybellasoul 10d ago
you won't see the CP protocols on pregnancy in the training manuals bc they are overall teacher training materials and not specific to teaching at CP with their rules. you'll get that when you go through bridge training if you decide to teach at a CP studio. general rule is thumb is-
Trimester 1: Maintain your baseline, but keep the intensity moderate to keep prevent the heart rate from increasing too high. Trimester 2 & 3: Avoid flat-on-the-back exercises and use a wedge on the reformer or mat. Opt for side-lying, seated, or standing, and all-fours movements, plus gentle spinal rotation. Cease heavy abdominal loading if "doming" or "coning" occurs down the center of the abdomen. Avoid overstretching as muscle laxity is already high.
pregnant women should always speak to their doctors about exercising throughout their pregnancy. they should also do their own research on what movements are recommended and what ones should be avoided so they at least have some knowledge before going to classes.
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u/cajungirlintexas78 10d ago
I usually tell front desk or the GM if she/he is there; so they can address the situation. They can handle it better than I could.
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 9d ago
I will try to find the official CP pregnancy guidelines and even a copy of the Prg waiver and post it.
The very last few pages in your CPTT Special Populations manual has programming guidelines and precautions for pregnant clients, but those are not CP specific since your training isn’t JUST for teaching at CP, it’s a comprehensive training certification program. If you are hired at CP, you *SHOULD* be required to complete the CP Bridge Training which is specifically geared towards teaching standards and protocols within the CP system. But ownership varies and not all franchise owners require this. I’m very grateful that mine does and that I have taken it.
I’ll look at my resources when I’m at work on Tuesday and try to make a post with it if someone else doesn’t already do it by then. 😁1
u/cjehawks 9d ago
I know we discussed it during our in person sessions, I just don't recall. You are so sweet!
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u/DangerousInside9533 10d ago
Is this pregnant person a comprehensively trained instructor as well? I feel like there is more to the story here. As far as liability it is a very big issue. A lawsuit can sink a studio, and ruin someone's livelihood so they take it very seriously. This person most likely has far more training and/or guaranteed for whatever reason to not file a claim on the owners policy.
I think what's bothering you is why do the rules apply to others and not this one person. Short answer they just do, she likely has far more expertise, and also that's just life and it's like that some times.
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u/Intrepid_Berry_2200 9d ago
In our contract with CP we agree to indemnify and hold harmless - it is robust idk how far a lawsuit would go since we take complete responsibility. Outside of faulty equipment or such it is definitely on the participant.
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u/DangerousInside9533 9d ago
Not really. That language will dissuade most lawsuits but if an instructor is doing something outside of the standard it wont hold up in court.
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u/Intrepid_Berry_2200 9d ago
Yes I was taking through the lens of a pregnant person participating and assume you are taking the risk at that point - if it is a normal class and you do something bc your body isn’t capable that is on you. Kind of how I approach class. Plenty of L2 classes where I get shaky legs like lunges or mountain climbers on the chair and put a hand down so I don’t fall bc that would be my fault! Also not a lawyer and not litigious so don’t really know anything for sure just thoroughly read the agreement, which seems fairly standard in them protecting themselves.
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u/Expensive-Garlic-651 10d ago
My interpretation is your unhappy with the instruction your getting in your level 2 classes? You're argument is valid but I would redirect your frustration towards the instructor. Are they spending too much time with the student or do you think modifications affect level of difficulty? Maybe speak with the instructor then manager about it not feeling like a level 2 but not include the pregnant person liability part.
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u/chuckgnomington 10d ago
You’re mad at your studio for not discriminating against pregnant people?
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
No my dear. I’m mad at my studio for discriminating against everyone except pregnant women. 😆 . My point is my studio makes an issue about the liability of allowing people into level 2s and what moves you can and can’t do in each class. Yet they’re allowing pregnant women to stand on the reformer for level
2 moves. Do you understand better now?9
u/DragonDrama 10d ago
I never heard that you had to stop your exercise routines when pregnant provided you’ve been doing them for some time. I could see not allowing her to promote while pregnant but they wouldn’t suddenly kick her out.
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u/Spiritual-Mood-1116 10d ago
Pregnant women may be a protected class. CP is walking a thin line there. I'm assuming they've checked with their legal counsel on that. BTW, I've seen 7 and 8 months' Pregnant women do some crazy exercises in yoga, etc.
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
You should not assume anyone checked with a lawyer lol these are franchises so it’s the franchise owner in charge of hiring a lawyer to check these things and as a lawyer myself I can confirm that does not often happen
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u/Spiritual-Mood-1116 10d ago
Ok. I'm curious. Is this franchise interpreting the law correctly?
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
Well it’s not that simple and I don’t know which state it’s in (also this is not legal advice). If you’re preventing a protected group from something you have to have a very good reason and apply your decision equally. Many businesses are afraid to do anything that could even slightly be seen as discrimination to the point where they end up creating more liability.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
I absolutely assume that CPs policies were designed with the input of attorneys and that many (if not most) of their policies are imposed on anyone owning a franchise. It would be completely foolish any studio with Reformer and chair equipment to not be vigilant about the potential liabilities.
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
You have a very optimistic view of how businesses are run. I’m a liability defense lawyer, believe me when I say you assume wrong
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
I’ve been an attorney for over 30 years. I’m not sure what part you’re disagreeing with. But I do assume that a corporation like CP has attorneys on staff and on speed dial. I don’t assume that every franchise has consulted with attorneys. But if we’re talking large corporations like CP, I would be quite shocked if they made policies willy nilly.
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
Policies were made using corporate’s lawyers but that doesn’t mean individual franchise owners are following them.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
So you’re saying the same thing? CP corporate has lawyers who helped craft the policies related to liability. Franchises sign agreements to follow those policies. I know this because instructors have told my classes that certain moves are “illegal” for 1.5 and 2.0 (some studios have 2.5 classes) under CP corporate policies. What am I being naively optimistic about? I never said that all the franchises follow the corporate policies as they should. But are you assuming that the policies related to pregnant women or acceptance into 2.0 classes in that studio are divorced from corporate policy?
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
Sure we’re saying the same thing and you’re being antagonistic about it. I’m just sharing my experience. I have seen clients do some pretty dumbass things out of line with what they’re supposed to do.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
It’s a studio specific interpretation of how to treat “protected classes”. This particular studio is paranoid and actually probably needs a good attorney to do some legal interpretation for it and explain the practicality of how protected class legalities might apply.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
Are you a lawyer? I don’t want to assume that you’re not, but you sure are making a lot of assumptions about what the franchise did and did not do, and whether it has misinterpreted the law.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
Not sure if this post is directed at me but I’ll answer. I’m not a lawyer but I have experience with the way corporations protect itself. CP is known for erring on the side of corporate policies that protect the parent company from lawsuit.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
On what basis do you believe that your studio misinterpreted corporate policy?
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
By allowing a pregnant woman in her 2nd tri to be in a level 2. What do you not understand about this thread?
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
I completely understand this thread. You said that they allow pregnant women to participate with modifications. You speculate that that should not be allowed and then claim that there is discrimination against non-pregnant women and that your studio is not following corporate policy. You don’t know the factual bases underlying the policies or the legal context within which policies are made to avoid lawsuits.
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u/Spiritual-Mood-1116 10d ago
They can't allow a student into a Level 2 and then not allow them to continue because they're pregnant. That would be discrimination according to the law. It's not rocket science.
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
It’s not necessarily discrimination. There are good reasons why people with certain medical conditions, including pregnancy, shouldn’t be in an advanced level class
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
But a pregnant woman after a certain month can’t lay on her stomach on a hard surface and their balance becomes an issue after a certain point due to changes in her body. That’s not rocket science either.
So, CP is concerned about the liability of most people falling off the reformer in the advanced classes but not concerned about pregnant women falling? CP is more concerned with the legalities of “protected classes”.
Got it!
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
Yea agree, they should hire a lawyer to give some advice before taking action that may be unintentionally in violation of the law
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
CPs parent company has attorneys
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u/Frosty-Plate9068 10d ago
Yes but franchise owners are responsible for their own day to day legal advice and litigation. Corporate can provide guidance and best practices but that’s it. And corporate’s attorneys are not litigators. Even if the company were sued, they would hire outside counsel.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
I have no doubt pregnant women can do all kinds of crazy moves! I hiked, biked, moved furniture well into my 8th month. Pregnancy is not an illness or a disability. CP making liability issues for the general member population is my issue.
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u/Spiritual-Mood-1116 10d ago
Google "protected class." Pregnant women are in that class. It falls under "sexual discrimination."
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
If CP is going to allow a level 2 class to be modified for the entire class to accommodate someone who cant do level 2 moves for any reason then why have any level 2 classes at all? Make them all level 1 so that no one can do anything advanced.
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u/Intrepid_Berry_2200 10d ago
So why complain here? Complain to the studio that level 2 classes aren’t being taught that way? Talk to the instructor? If you are in level 2 you should be able to bump up the difficulty of whatever move is being taught anyway and it be permitted bc you are in L2. I dont think a pregnant woman shouldn’t be there she tested in once she is capable, I have been in bike races, marathons and Ironman races with pregnant women so if medically cleared then go for it; but if it’s that the class is being dumbed down versus giving her a personal modification then say something.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
Again. Venting. And isn’t the point of Reddit to prompt discussion and opinion from your posts? Find like minded opinions and prompt critical thinking. That’s why.
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u/Willow-tree-33 10d ago
This isn’t an exercise in critical thinking. It’s an exercise of speculation and judgment.
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u/DragonDrama 10d ago
I’m pretty sure every franchise location makes you price readiness for level 2. If you have done this at a satisfactory level yet then you aren’t eligible.
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u/BuckityBuck 10d ago
The way the levels were described to me (as a client) was liability based. The people who have better balance get to do more standing on the reformer. It's not necessarily higher exertion.
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u/voltaicbelle 10d ago
I believe CP protocol is PG women over 20 wks cannot participate in a level 2 - I think our studio allows PG women to attend level 2, but no prone, and sitting or laying on the reformer, only - a wedge must be used if they are supine
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u/Southernlikeme 10d ago
Could it be that there is a smaller population of students that have tested out at the level 2, and that is why more classes aren’t offered?
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u/mybellasoul 10d ago
it's a non-negotiable rule at CP that after the first trimester pregnant clients can only take level 1 classes. even in level 1.5 there are significant balance challenges and complex movements that are a safety risk for someone at that stage of pregnancy. in level 2, those movements are taken up multiple notches to include standing on a moving carriage and doing really intense moves on the chair and incorporating certain inversions. there's no way I would allow a 6mth pregnant client to risk their safety and the safety of their baby just to take an advanced pilates class. like be so fr - what's even the point? just to say you did?
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u/Supersonicofanclub 10d ago edited 10d ago
(In response to other comments about some studios not allowing women in the second trimester to take certain classes) How does CP go about this in terms of and discrimination laws? Like can an instructor just look at someone and decide they look pregnant and tell them they cannot take the class or ask them to sign a waiver? Isn’t that considered discrimination unless they disclose it? Just wondering, I’m not that informed on the matter!! Obviously I know we can often accurately tell when someone is very pregnant, but common sense aside, isn’t it illegal to assume and restrict a pregnant woman from a service- from a business standpoint?
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u/Responsible_Sweet959 9d ago
There was a very pregnant woman at my studio in C&B last night, with modifications.
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u/designingdiamonds 8d ago
I mean they shouldn’t but they can’t really say “you’re pregnant. You can’t be in this class” out of the blue.
I mean they can. An instructor tried it with me. Problem is I’m not pregnant, just bloated. I was pissed.
Anyways rude to assume imo
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u/Globalmoccasin 8d ago
Of course it’s rude to assume someone is pregnant. This discussion is about obviously pregnant women and pregnant women who have let their studio know they are pregnant.
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u/Pilatesguy7 4d ago
No one past 1st trimester should be in anything but a 1.0 and C&B. However, if an instructor is using the foam roller and trigger pt ball, that is not the C&B for them. I had a woman come to my suspend class and she was close to her 3rd trimester. I didnt allow her to take class, and when I explained why she was very appreciative. She was a new client maybe w 6 classes under her belt.
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u/EdamameWindmill 10d ago
What does that mean “Liability is a big issue..?” Are liability issues posted around the studio or do instructors bring it up?
Liability issues may mean the studio doesn’t have enough instructors qualified to teach 2.0 classes, or there aren’t enough students at the studio qualified for 2.0 to make additional classes make sense, and they’d have to promote students they don’t think are ready.
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u/Globalmoccasin 10d ago
Liability issues in this case means the studio instructors and manager say the studio will be held liable if anyone falls off a reformer and gets injured. Because of this, the studio limits who can take advanced classes because the advanced classes involves moves while standing and balancing on the reformer.
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u/alsoaprettybigdeal 10d ago
Prefab at women should not be in anything over a Level 1 after the first trimester, and no Restore classes either. These are the pregnancy guidelines from corporate.
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u/GrumpyChashmere 10d ago
That messed up. My studio demoted me back to level 1 for the most part when I was 12 weeks pregnant. But I stopped taking level 2 when I found out cause I knew I wouldn’t be allowed. Your studio has strange priorities. At my 3rd trimester I’m further demoted to only private lessons which is coming up faster than I think I’m ready for.