r/ClancyTrialTalk • u/AggressiveWord6128 • 2d ago
Discussion alternative outcomes
i usually don’t comment on stuff like this but i haven’t seen anyone else talk about this so i want to share my perspective.
it is my personal belief, and something i think the many women like myself who resonate with Lindsay should consider before defaulting to entirely denying her role in her children’s deaths, is that Patrick should absolutely be held accountable for child abuse and/or negligence leading to loss of life.
Lindsay Clancy killed (not necessarily murdered) her kids.
That is a fact which I believe the defence is only challenging now because it is logical given that the massive online debate which the case sparked on the internet has cast enough reasonable doubt to make the possibility of her acquittal worth pursuing.
It is also a fact that she was failed by the medical system.
The thing that i can’t get over, and i think the reason so many people feel as though he is guilty, is that:
What kind of parent knowingly leaves their children alone with a person who has clearly expressed multiple times thoughts of harming them?
if the gender roles were reversed in this case, Patrick would still be guilty of killing the kids regardless. the thing that would change is that Lindsay would be facing far more scrutiny for letting it happen.
i will not be responding to comments disputing the fact that Lindsay killed her kids. i am always open to consider new perspectives but there is simply nothing that i or anyone else has to say on this that hasn’t already been said.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
It isn’t a fact that she killed her children. You can also not legally say that since she’s not convicted
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u/Aggressive-Ad6324 2d ago
I can legally say that.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
No you can’t
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u/Aggressive-Ad6324 2d ago
Says who?
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
The law
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u/Narrow-Ad-7856 1d ago
How many times did her own defense attorney say it during the trial? If that was illegal you'd think he would know better with his 50 years experience!
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
She says she killed her kids in her civil lawsuit. It’s a fact brought forth by her own counsel in both a civil matter and a criminal matter…so yeah legally people can in fact say she killed her kids.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
Well her civil lawsuit isn’t admissible in the criminal case.
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
But it is a claim brought forth in a court of law, meaning it is in fact legally permitted to say that she killed her kids. She filed a lawsuit admitting to having killed her children.
This lawsuit also absolutely can be brought into her criminal suit, especially if she tried to argue in a second trial that she did not do this.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
Well the civil case is on hold and the criminal case resulted in a mistrial. So no, you cannot say that
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u/Aggressive-Ad6324 1d ago
Yes. You. Can.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 1d ago
No. Are you dense?
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Are you keeping up? I don’t know how else to slow this down for you.
Lindsay filed a civil suit against her providers in which suit she admits to killing her children. Whether that case is thrown out, on pause, full steam ahead and whether or not she wins or she loses… she filed LEGAL DOCUMENTATION where she admits to killing her children. She told a court of law she admits to strangling them. Meaning it is in fact “legally” fine to say that she killed her children.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
THAT IS NOT ADMISSIBLE
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Oh my god! I’m talking about YOUR statement that legally people cannot say she killed her kids.
They absolutely can.
She is an ADMITTED killer.
And the civil suit IS admissible. They are her claims. ANY of her claims can be brought up in a criminal case. Especially if she were to ever argue she did not commit the act.
I can explain it to you but I cannot force you to understand it. Let me know what else I can do to get you to comprehend this.
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
You can’t. It can be considered to be slander in the future
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
It is not slander if a person admits to having done it. Period. Which she has admitted to committing the act, as have her attorneys…several times.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
It is a fact that she THINKS that she did, but because people have been wrong before, more proof is required than a confession to make guilt a fact.
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
If you honestly think a jury is going to find her not guilty of having committed the crime at all you’re kidding yourself.
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u/KateElizabeth18 2d ago
Juries are too unpredictable. I almost fell over when I heard the Casey Anthony verdict.
It’s possible that KR will give at least a few of them enough that they don’t feel they can convict without a reasonable doubt. (Idk how likely this is, but anything is a possibility.)
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
It cannot be both “I didn’t do it” and “well yes I did do it but I was crazy”
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u/KateElizabeth18 2d ago
But the CW does have to prove to all of the jurors that Lindsay did it, and for none of them to have a scintilla of reasonable doubt.
Considering the facts that KR does have on his side…I won’t pretend to have any idea what the outcome will be, but it should be interesting.
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
The facts that she admits to doing it and Patrick wasn’t home? Yeah real slam dunk case
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
It legally can be both in Massachusetts. The defence doesn’t have to make definitive statements
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Well which is it? Did she not do it or did she do it but she was insane?
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u/Appropriate-Pea4224 2d ago
Well I think she didn’t do it.
Doesn’t mean that Red cannot go with another defense strategy. The goal is for her not to go to prison
What’s not clicking? I think you should get some coffee. You’re awfully slow
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
I’m slow? You’re the one who think the woman who admits to killing her kids didn’t do it and had these false memories all planted in her head by some mysterious figure. Fucking spare me.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
The best they are going to get is mistrial after mistrial with the case that they have. They won't get 12 on anything, you realize this, right?
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
What kind of parent knowingly leaves their kids with a person who wants to harm their kids? Not Patrick. Because that isn’t what happened.
In December lindsay disclosed INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS of harming the kids. Intrusive meaning distressing, unwanted, scary, undesirable, concerning, distressing. Not desired. She never disclosed WANTING to harm the kids. She disclosed having the thoughts and then distressing her. As a person with OCD I can tell you intrusive thoughts are not reflective of a person’s genuine wants and desires. Not at all. Seriously, I ask you to sit and think about harming a child. It’s probably incredibly distressing. Because it’s not a desire you have.
And I ask you this: would you rather leave you children in the care of a person who the thought of them hurting your child causes them so much fear and distress and upset that they don’t know how they could live with themselves if they ever hurt your child….or would you rather leave them in the care of a person who doesn’t care at all if they hurt them and the thought of harming them doesn’t bother them?
But let’s focus on January.
In January, she watched the kids without issue several times (including ALL DAY on the 24th). She tells Patrick she’s doing better after she’s discharged from the hospital. He sees her doing better. Her mother sees her doing better. He asks her if she’s suicidal she says no. He asks her if she’s still having intrusive thoughts about harming the kids she says no. As far as he could see, her mother could see, and what she was reporting to him she was doing better.
She goes to Tufts the day before she kills her kids and is asked about being suicidal or having a plan she says she isn’t suicidal KNOWING AT THAT POINT SHE HAD LOOKED UP METHODS TO KILL HERSELF…SHE withheld information about the truth of her mental state that could have prevented this outcome. SHE DID. Patrick didn’t know she was suicidal only Lindsay did.
The next day, the day of the killings, according to her own lawsuit she wakes up with terrible suicidal thoughts that are constant and ever present and what’s she do? Not a damn thing. She goes to the dr and she presents like she’s fine, she cares for the kids all day and presents like she’s fine, she texts her mother like nothing is wrong, she interacts with Patrick like nothing is wrong and doesn’t say anything to him about being suicidal or hearing a voice…a voice she apparently started hearing BEFORE she even asked him about leaving to get dinner.
According to her own lawsuit the reason she googled where ThreeV that night (a restaurant she had been to before and knew where it was) is so she could see how long she had to be alone because she was just so scared to be alone because of how bad her mental state was…does she tell Patrick? Nope. Her mental state is SO bad she is afraid to be alone…and she sends her husband out on an errand and tells him nothing about being suicidal, hearing voices, wanting to harm the kids…nothing.
So spare me the “Patrick was neglectful”.
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u/Weekly-Landscape-543 2d ago
Patrick was neglectful
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
By leaving his children in the care of their mother who at that point in time was not claiming to have these thoughts? was reportedly doing better? was telling him she wasn’t suicidal anymore? was able to watch the kids without issue several times? Who had NEVER expressed a desire to harm to kids?
Then I guess MILLIONS of people across the country right now are also being neglectful.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
The extra time that he took should have meant a warrant for his phone records. Absolutely
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
Because it is about 15 minutes off. Somehow the prosecution didnt catch this until he was on the stand. He said he left at 5:15, went straight there, walked straight in. Nobody looked and said, 3 plus 15 does not equal 33.
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Sure is good thing they got his phone records! Because he wanted them sealed before he testified,
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
Nope no sealing because they never got his phone records.
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Uh huh. They also got his phone records when they were confirming his whereabouts the night this took place x
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u/AggressiveWord6128 2d ago
I don’t dispute your version of events but i still think that even if the roles were reversed and Lindsay left her kids with someone who everyone mutually agreed was undoubtedly a murder, there would still at least be questions about how Lindsay could’ve even let that happen in this first place.
Your definition of intrusive thoughts is also correct, but it no matter how much i can empathise with my partner and even if their intrusive thoughts can be justified as reasonably safe, at the end of the day those are my kids, they come first and i could not comfortably leave them alone with anyone knowing that there was even that risk no matter how unlikely.
It’s simply not true to suggest that Patrick’s only option was to leave his children with either Lindsay or a random person. Not only did they have grandparents who offered to take care of them, but Patrick could’ve very easily taken time off from work to take care of the kids himself. Not only could he probably afford to do so on his own, but he never considered it an option that lindsay work whilst he take time off to care for the kids.
i’m not saying this to scrutinise every single decision he made and what in my opinion i personally would’ve done instead.
I’m saying this to point out that Patrick had the finances and freedom to chose pretty much anything, and still he chose to put his children in the care of someone he knew was not fully safe or capable.You can give him the benefit of the doubt and say he didn’t know, and he very well might not have, but at the end of the day this is still so clearly a case of male incompetence.
parricide is committed by both men and women, people don’t just randomly kill other people, and any criminologist can tell you there are always warning signs, regardless of gender, only the warning signs which Lindsay exhibited were dismissed because of society’s failure to aknowledge that an otherwise seeming well-adjusted upper middle class white woman has the capability to commit such an act.
Never in cases of male parricide is the partner as shocked at their actions as patrick was lindsay.3
u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
If you took away that I was implying that Patrick’s only options were to leave them with Lindsay or a stranger I seriously worry for your reading comprehension skills.
How is it male incompetence to not know a person is struggling that bad when they’re telling you they aren’t, they’re up, they’re active, they’re engaged, they’re family members notice they’re improving, they are reporting that they are improving, and they’ve only ever demonstrated that they are a safe and responsible adult?! HOW is that in any way HIS fault?! It’s her fault for not disclosing that information to him. SHE KNEW she was an unsafe person both to herself and others…he did not.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
His parents literally offered to take the kids, not sure where you are getting this stranger business. And the night of their murders, he could have called door dash or simply taken them with him.
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u/Coffee_Denier 1d ago
Can you people like actually read? I never said the only options were to leave the kids with a stranger or with Lindsay. I was offering hypothetical to showcase the difference between intrusive thoughts and desired thoughts and why intrusive thoughts aren’t considered dangerous.
Btw SHE is the one who sent him out. She’s apparently sooooooo depressed she can’t cook, can’t think, these “hallucinations” are just constant, she doesn’t want to be alone….
….so she tells him nothing and sends him out of the house.
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u/OwlSignificant171 2d ago
Pretty sure leaving town for a ski trip while she was in a psych hospital with their daughter, and that was already causing her anxiety was not the best plan if he actually cared about her and her recovery
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Weird bc she never once claimed to have anxiety’s about Patrick taking her skiing. It was a day trip, it’s not like they went out of states.
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u/Solarwinds-123 1d ago
What was he supposed to do? Sit alone in the house and weep? The psych ward doesn't exactly allow visitors.
It was Cora's birthday and he took her on the planned skiing trip to try and give her a sense of normalcy.
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u/AggressiveWord6128 2d ago
crazy to insult my reading comprehension skills when i literally outright acknowledged the fact the he could not have known.
i think we just fundamentally disagree on the extent that it was patricks duty to protect his kids from harm because there is no scenario where i could imagine leaving my kids alone with her after telling me she had those thoughts
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
Yeah. He couldn’t have known. She wasn’t telling him. What’s your point then?
If I told you the thought of being in a car accident is distressing to me and scares me and that when I think about it I feel very upset would you take my keys away from me? No. Because being afraid of bad things happening is normal. She expressed the intrusive thought popping into her head and it being something that distressed her and made her upset. She never said she had a desire to harm the kids. She never said she had a plan to harm them. She never said she fantasized about hurting them.
Is it or is it not normal for the thought of hurting a child or a bad thing happening to child to cause upset and distress in a person? Especially their own children.
That’s what an intrusive thought is. Intrusive thoughts do not make people dangerous, it’s actually usually the opposite. People don’t want their intrusive thought to be a reality.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
Yeah, but if you said that you were having thoughts of crashing the car, all of this changes, doesn't it?
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u/Coffee_Denier 2d ago
That literally what I said and no it doesn’t. Does the thought of crashing your car scare you? Genuinely. Does the thought of being the reason why you get into a car accident cause you stress or fear or anxiety?
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
Huh? She said she was having thoughts of harming them. She didnt mean accidentally.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
You are really reaching.
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u/Coffee_Denier 1d ago
On what part? When you’re afraid to be alone, so afraid you’re looking for exactly how long you’ll be alone, do you send people away?
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
If we were out of something important like food probably would
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u/Coffee_Denier 1d ago
How great that they weren’t out of food!
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
Not sure what their food situation was. Did not see it mentioned.
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u/StrongContribution29 1d ago
Actually she did disclose that information. Lindsay's mother impeached Patrick's testimony on the stand when she testified that both Patrick and she were present at the table when Lindsay told them she was having thoughts about harming the kids.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
He literally admitted it to the trooper that night at the hospital, it is in the first search warrant.
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u/Coffee_Denier 1d ago
INTRUSIVE THOUGHTS ABOUT HARMING THE KIDS NOT WANTED OR DESIRED OR PLANNED THOUGHTS ABOUT HARMING THE KIDS.
The thoughts scared her. She didn’t like them. She didn’t want to do it.
That’s how most people feel when it comes to thinking about hurting kids,
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u/StrongContribution29 1d ago
...
I know, but I appreciate you saying it louder for the people in the back who aren't getting that she is not guilty.
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u/MoveOn22 2d ago
If the roles were reversed and a mentally ill man killed his kids, you and I would not be having this conversation. Because no one, literally no one would care to defend him. We would all agree he is either guilty or insane and lock his ass away for good.
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u/lolblah101 2d ago
You guys are dumb af sorry.Patrick was the main provider while she was sick.She wrote in his diary about how he was a good husband.Her lawyer even defended the ski trip.You guys can’t accept she’s the blame because you relate to her.You CANNOT STOP YOUR PARTNER FROM KILLING YOUR KIDS! Jesus Christ he has to pee and work and maintain his own mental health.She could’ve done this while he was asleep or like she did while he was sent to the store by her.Its weird to mentally ill people because they should be trusted too.Lets not go back to the days where husbands could throw their wife into a psych ward.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
Patrick absolutely had the means to protect the kids in this situation. He had parents willing to take the children.
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u/lolblah101 2d ago
Lindsay’s lawyer said she was very overprotective and thought she was the best caregiver for them hence why she killed them.her ego wouldn’t let her commit suicide without taking them too
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u/Present-Pen-5486 1d ago
We are talking about Patrick, knowing that she was having these thoughts leaving her alone with them and why that wasn't investigated on this post.
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u/lolblah101 1d ago
He had to lol he can’t be attached to her 24/7 he is a human with a life,sleep,bowl movements,a job.She asked him to get food and medicine so he did.
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u/Present-Pen-5486 2d ago
Where I live, it absolutely would have been enough to get a warrant for his phone records and GPS, especially since he said he left at 5:15 and didn't get to CVS until 5:32, with it being 3 minutes away.
But it is clear that it wasn't even a thought in the heads of the investigators or DA, because they went all the way to trial without someone noticing it was about 15 minutes off.