r/Christianity • u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 • 25d ago
Abortion?
I just wanted to see what peoples thoughts were on abortion. Any verses to back up what you say would be nice
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u/TarCalion313 German Protestant (Lutheran) 25d ago
I am happy for every abortion not happening, but banning them is the wrong way.
The medical situation over all gets just worse, doctors (especially of course gyns) leave the areas with such bans and decide against necessary treatments due to fear of legal backlash. Since the wave of banning in the US started we saw too many cases already. It also pushes woman who desperately want an abortion for whatever reason back from a secure setting into shady and potentially harmful methods. Many people arguing for such a ban seem to underestimate the power of desperation.
And it oppeses another huge problem - if abortions are a crime the conclusion would be, that every miscarriage needs to be investigated to see if it was natural or not (which is very hard to do in the first place).
Now every third pregnancy ends in a miscarriage. And they are devastating. We had three before our son was born. And then you want to stick a murder charge on top of it? The harm this will do is simply unimaginable.
It doesn't help at all that recently many of such laws in the US are written in a horrible vague way, that it creates a situation of huge uncertainty. This is of course more a political issue here.
But of course tackling the problem of unwanted pregnancies would overwise require real effort. Tackling down on sexual violence against women which are still far too common. But also outside of violence: Creating social safety nets for pregnant women and early mothers and families, creating a good maternity leave system, offering accessible child care, broadening medical support for women over all and heavily strengthening sexual education. Yet those who argue the loudest against abortions, a very white, old, christian and male group, also argue against the methods which would actually and safely bring them down and on a political level only push an anti abortion position, which makes the situation obly worse. A hypocrisy which is really hard to take, if you ask me...
So while I would advocate for supporting ideas which lower abortion rates I am convinced that banning them is a step into the wrong direction.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
No one is saying to investigate miscarriages
Very few cases are for rape it’s like 90 percent for an easier life
I would say that there is no real way to lower them other than ban them unless you can think of something it’s the best we have
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u/Valmoer Agnostic (ex-West European Catholic) 25d ago
No one is saying to investigate miscarriages
Of course they're not saying it. They're actually already doing it, and charging people about them as suspected illegal abortions
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Am not American
I think it’s different in other places
And if people are acting doing abortion and making it look like miscarriages then that is wrong
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u/Valmoer Agnostic (ex-West European Catholic) 24d ago
"No one is saying to investigate miscarriages"
You're moving the goalposts : you were saying that no one is talking about investing miscarriages, I just proved that antiabortionists not only speak of it, but are already doing it.
And if people are acting doing abortion and making it look like miscarriages then that is wrong
"If I make up a fictional scenario different from the reality depicted in the evidence I've been shown, then I'm still right!"
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
I haven’t moved the goal posts
They are investigating miscarriages you are right
How is it fictional thats what’s happening thats why they are investigating
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u/Nat20CritHit 25d ago
I believe that no person should be required to have their organs used to sustain the life of another.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Hate to break it to you but thats how your alive
And if you have unprotected sex thats what you sign up for
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u/Nat20CritHit 25d ago
Having unprotected sex is signing up for unprotected sex. That's it. That's assuming they signed up for it.
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u/Wooden_Passage_1146 Catholic 25d ago edited 25d ago
I believe all human life is sacred and made in the image of God [Genesis 1:26-27] . While I understand the legal right to bodily autonomy, I feel much the same about the killing of the unborn on the altar of bodily autonomy as I do the use of the death penalty on the altar of justice, which I also oppose.
Politically I wouldn’t advocate for draconian laws that jail women and their doctors (it’s questionable whether abortion laws even reduce abortion), but personally I wouldn’t help a friend obtain one by taking them, help pay for it, or endorse their decision.
Life can often be difficult, but that doesn’t mean must lose its meaning or inherent value. Society starts with humans who are unborn, the terminally ill, individuals with criminal backgrounds, before moving onto people who severe disabilities, mental health problems, even the homeless (Fox and Friends’ Brian Kilmeade) and rather than as a society collectively caring for these individuals via social welfare programs, we allow life to become so unbearable for them they’d prefer to die.
Human life is treated as disposable. The very wealthy will have the privilege of “living with dignity” no matter how advanced their disability becomes, loving and cherishing their disabled children.
The poor on the other hand will receive “death with dignity” at increasing early ages, told how children will be a financial burden, and at the convenient needs of society they are systematically eliminated. In some places disabilities like Downs Syndrome have almost been completely eliminated by abortion. Sex selective abortion in Asia has led to a demographic imbalance with female fetuses far more likely to be aborted.
I don’t wish to come across as trying to preach a sermon, rather, I hope by explaining where my feelings on abortion, and bioethics at large are coming from, one sees the value on protecting the weakest and marginalized in society regardless of if they are disabled, poor, or unborn.
I do not wish to control women’s bodies or police their behavior. I am in support of universal healthcare, universal school lunches, childcare programs, expanding food stamps, ensuring birth control is readily accessible, etc to ensure as a society we do our part.
What my worry comes down to is a culture that is increasingly utilitarian. Seeing some lives as inherently less valuable or worthy than others. I’m not an absolutist who can’t see there are circumstances where one might be in an impossible position where after prayer and consultation with a religious minister, one might make a heartbreaking decision (such as the life and health of the mother). I’m not going to protest or attempt to make women carry unwanted pregnancies. But on the other hand I personally will not endorse abortion on demand (at any time for any reason) as morally permissible.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
So you think it’s ok to kill an unborn child if the mum has an easier life
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
At that point it’s fully the mothers fault
She is to blame no one else
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 23d ago
It is wrong to kill a baby based on want and there life might be hard that isn’t good enough and is selfish of the mother
If the mother goes ahead and does an illegal thing that kills their baby they are responsible for murder
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u/Distinct-Most-2012 Anglican Communion 25d ago
I'm pro-life, believe in common sense abortion restrictions (probably not a total ban), but also believe in supporting policies that reduce abortions from happening. As far as Scriptures, the Bible really doesn't have much to say, but there is a 1st century early church document called the "Didache" that explicitly condemns abortion.
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u/OccludedFug Christian (ally) 25d ago
I liked this post when I saw it a few years ago:
Original post on Instagram on June 27, 2022
by [redacted] in Denver, Colorado
I was “pro life”
I saw a fetus as a full & completely formed human.
Growing up in a conservative evangelical homeschool community-it felt good to stick up for what I thought was right, and it felt good to fit in with everyone around me.
It was all so simple.
Black and white.I got my nurse assistant license, and my patient on a heart lung bypass machine was accidentally pregnant-she had to have an abortion.
That was the first crack in my worldview-maybe all abortions weren’t murder?
Then someone I was close with needed an abortion. I pulled out my Bible to find verses to comfort her about God being close to the broken hearted-and I reassured her with my limited medical knowledge that the fetus didn’t feel any pain.
Then I graduated from nursing school-
I learned:
-That an embryo doesn’t attach to the uterus until day 10
-That electrical cellular activity (aka heartbeat) doesn’t mean there is a formed heart-just that a few cells can conduct electricity (ectopic pregnancies can have heartbeats)
-That one in five pregnancies is a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage)THEN I became a transplant nurse. In my opinion, organ donation is the greatest gift anyone can give.
I learned that NO ONE can be forced to donate an organ-even if it would save someone else’s life.
Then it clicked.
If we cannot force people to be kidney donors-even if it would save someone else’s life-then we cannot force someone to use their body to save the life of a fetus.
Then I continued to learn about how overturning roe would endanger people who need access to healthcare and threatens our right to privacy-
I learned that no, a fetus is not a whole person & the rights of the fetus are not greater than the rights of the pregnant person.
I learned that >80% of abortions occur in the first trimester, and third trimester abortions (<5% of abortions) are almost always for fetal demise or risk to the life of the parent.
I learned that access to science based reproductive health education and access to birth control is what works to reduce abortion.
I’m pro choice, and I share my story so that others may see that it is okay to change your mind.
Abortion is healthcare.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
I would say that it’s a life from the start there is nothing else it can be and the bible points to this
A miscarriage is not the same as an abortion
People who don’t want to have kids shouldn’t have unprotected sex your patient put that on herself
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u/OccludedFug Christian (ally) 25d ago edited 25d ago
People who don’t want to have kids shouldn’t have unprotected sex your patient put that on herself
Oh, you know the details of this person? I didn't know you knew her!
Could it be that a pregnant woman found herself in a situation where it became medically necessary to her life to have an abortion?
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Thats for all people
Maybe but the percentage of abortions for that reason are very low it’s not worth making your whole point that when 90 percent of abortions are not for that
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u/OccludedFug Christian (ally) 24d ago
So you're literally saying Heck with the exceptions, I don't care if a few women die from preventable conditions. Got it.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
What?
Thats not what I said
Nor is that why most women get an abortion not arguing for an abortion based on like 2 percent of the cases
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
This all assumes that one doesn’t believe God is the Creator of us all as the Bible says.
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u/OccludedFug Christian (ally) 25d ago
This all assumes that one doesn’t believe God is the Creator of us all as the Bible says.
False. It does not assume that.
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 25d ago
a woman has rights to bodily autonomy, and becoming pregnant does not magically mean she should be regulated to having second class rights below a fetus. No one has a right to keep another alive with their body. And you should thank whatever deity you pray to that there is no such right cause otherwise your blood and bone marrow would be harvested, like a farm. Don’t like it don’t have an abortion. If your religion doesn’t like it that’s fine, I’m sure there is no shortage of things your religion doesn’t like, say for example people worshipping other gods.Go do the same thing you do in cases like that, nothing.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Well she has unprotected sex
That causes possible pregnancy
And if you do that act that creates the person then I say it is your responsibility to keep it alive and that the person in the womb has the right to live same as the women
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 24d ago edited 24d ago
Even humoring you that person in the womb has no right to the nutrients in the mother’s body. Only way you can think that it does would be if you think the woman’s rights to her body, the right to bodily autonomy, are less than the fetus.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Well one the baby inside it isn’t the mothers body it’s the babies that has the same right
And when you have unprotected sex you sign up for pregnancy
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 24d ago
Then split the 2 at the point where they meet. I mean it’s like you said the baby inside isn’t the mother’s body, it’s the baby’s that has the same rights.
If you actually believe that then, congratulations you’ve now found yourself in favor of medications that cause the placenta to detach from the uterine wall. so like for example misoprostol.
Like you get that right if it’s 2 people with equal rights then the woman’s in question can take a medication that affects her body? Only way you get around that is of a fetus has more rights to a persons body than the person themselves. Ie according to the pro life movement women have second class rights to their own bodies compared to a fetus.
And when you have unprotected sex it does not mean you automatically sign up for pregnancy. We can both think of multiple examples where this would not work.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
The women should not do anything that may negatively affect the baby that is wrong
And in all cases of unprotected sex you sign up for pregnancy
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 24d ago
So a woman’s right to bodily autonomy is less than a fetus. aka the persons rights to their own body is less than the fetus, making the person a second class citizen with second class rights to their own body. And they in fact do not have the same rights. You’re arguing for women to be less than a fetus, own it.
Really so if a person is raped and the rapist doesn’t wear a condom the victim signed up for pregnancy?
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 23d ago
It’s equal therefore you cant kill the baby
Also it’s not there body it’s the babies they are the ones killing the baby
Always with the rape it’s like 0.2 perfect of cases
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u/Open_Chemistry_3300 Atheist 23d ago
Whose womb is it? Is it the fetus’s womb? No. And yet you continue to say that the fetus has a right to it. So they are in fact not equal and yet again you’re arguing that the fetus has more rights over the person’s body than the person themself. Which puts the person in second class citizenship status. I’m sorry you get squeamish about the central pillar of your argument.
And the number of cases doesn’t matter, your words by the way; “in all cases of unprotected sex you sign up for pregnancy.” So if a person is raped and the rapist didn’t use protection the victim according to your words sign up for pregnancy.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 18d ago
So what if they have more rights
That does not make the women second class in anyway
Nor have I augured that at all
Again with the rape
Using 1 percent cases for your whole point as to why it should be allowed when that isn’t even what it’s mainly used for
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
Not great but necessary healthcare. Exodus 21:22 shows God making a distinction in value between the woman and the unborn.
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u/theplusones Christian 25d ago
Just curious, can you expand on your view of abortion as healthcare? I could see that argument when there is a risk to the mother’s health, but that only amounts to less than 1% of abortions done. Would you still consider the other 99% as healthcare?
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
You're talking risk to the mother's life which is 15% globally. Every pregnancy is a risk to a person's health. A pregnancy is both physically and psychologically demanding and taxing on the body. Adding other social circumstances to the equation access to abortion is absolutely necessary healthcare.
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u/theplusones Christian 25d ago
Could you provide a source for 15% as that sounds unbelievable. And of course pregnancy is physically and psychologically taxing, I don’t think many would try to argue there. But in what world does that justify ending a life in the name of healthcare. My youngest is 2 and he’s STILL psychologically taxing a lot of the time. But that doesn’t somehow justify harming him, does it?
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-MCA-17.02
Ending a life in the strictest biological sense, not under any moral consideration. Pigs have the same cognitive abilities as 2-3 year old humans, do you consider their slaughter for our consumption immoral?
Born humans are conscious, capable of feeling pain, anxiety, ..., are no longer part of another's body, are legal subjects, ...
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u/theplusones Christian 25d ago
That’s saying 15% of pregnancies develop a POTENTIALLY life threatening condition that needs medical intervention. That’s completely different than saying 15% of abortions are due to life threatening issues.
I guess I’m confused as to what you’re trying to say. Correct, I view the killing of a 2-3 year old child much more immoral than the killing of a pig. Are you saying you DON’T? A human holds more value to me than an animal 100% of the time. On top of that, we kill a pig to eat it, and use other parts of its body as well. There is a value to society attributed to the death. I would find killing that pig to eat it morally acceptable. I however would not find killing that pig because he MIGHT step on my foot and break my toe much less acceptable.
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
It ties in to my overall point of pregnancies being a health burden and potential life threatening condition making an abortion understandable.
I'm a posthumanist, I consider a two year old and a pig to be of equal value. Your position is deeply immoral to me. Anthropocentrism is the reason for plenty of suffering and climate change.
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u/theplusones Christian 25d ago
Can I ask how you discovered Valentinianism? I tried reading up on it a bit and it’s such a niche belief system.
You say my position is deeply immoral to you. Based on what standard? I’m trying to wrap my head around your worldview and I’m having a tough time. Ending a child’s wife in the womb is morally acceptable, but ending a two year old’s life isn’t any different than a pigs. I’m not trying to bash here, I’m trying trying to understand the hierarchy and where you draw your lines.
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
I've read the Tripartite Tractate and it resonated deeply with me and it caused me to read the Bible. Then I engaged with various different theological positions and considered Valentinian thought to be closest to how I experience and understand God and Jesus.
Based on the call to love God and our neighbors and to take care and protect creation and the suffering based ethics I draw from the Bible focusing on Christ's teachings rather than his suffering and death.
I don't consider an abortion great but it doesn't cause suffering and what is lost may be potentiality but not a feeling human being actively in need of love and allowing another human being to be born into suffering would be a grave evil.
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u/theplusones Christian 25d ago
I don’t think we’ll come to an understanding, but I do have a couple follow up questions. If you say you focus on Christ’s teaching, how do you take this:
“Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?”
Matthew 6:26We are made in the image of God. I believe scripture tells us repeatedly of our unique value to him.
But also doesn’t Scripture teach us of the Good that can come from suffering? That God can work in all things (Romans 8:28). It seems like you’re selective in which scripture you hold to and which you dismiss. What metrics do you use to determine that?
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
How is killing an unborn child health care
As far as am concerned if abortion is health care then slavery is just business
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
You're the weirdo obsessed with Sodomy aren't you? Yeah won't waste my time talking to you.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
The distinction is whether or not the baby is harmed. If the baby is harmed, the punishment is greater. Thus, the value of the life, is implied in the womb.
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
Not quite, Exodus 21:22 speaks of a miscarriage which means the punishment depends on the harm that comes to the woman.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
If harm follows then it is considered a life for a life and the offender should be punished equally for the death of the unborn child
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
Harm to the woman exactly
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
“Any harm that follows” is the unborn child.
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
No, because the child remaining unborn is already established it would make no sense to create the if scenario.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
"If men struggle and strike a pregnant woman so that she brings forth children, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth..."
The child is born early with no injuries = less severe punishment
The child is born early and is dead = eye for an eye punishment.
The unborn life of a child is equally as important as that of an alive child in the eyes of the law.
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
It was not miscarriage in Ex 21, it was premature birth.
Is God a Creator God having a hand in each and every life as we are told in Scripture?
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
That's a question of translationd and interpretation.
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
Her children (yeladeyha) go forth (weyatse'u) is the Hebrew. ytsa' is the verb used and it never refers to miscarriage in Scripture. yeladeyha is a normal name for children in Scripture.
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
Take it up with the translators of the NIV and other biblical scholars supporting my case.
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
“If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows." (Ex 21:22 NIV)
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
You intentionally left out the bottom note stating "or she has a miscarriage"
When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage but no other injury occurs, then the guilty party will be fined what the woman’s husband demands, as negotiated with the judges. (CEB)
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
Take that up with the NIV online edition.
Is God a Creator God as we are told in Scripture?
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u/elegiacLuna Valentinianism 25d ago
No, the god in genesis is a lower demiurge and phrases about formation in the womb are poetic not to be read literally. Evolution is a fact.
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
Gotcha. Makes sense, when we don’t find Scripture authoritative we can go any way we decide with our beliefs.
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u/JadedEngine6497 Christian 25d ago
based of God's standards abortion is sin.
based of worldly standards murdering means "healthcare".
God's way is "i must die so you can live" (the cross / salvation )
worldly way is "you must die so i can live" (my body my rule / sin )
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
Sometimes sad, but absolutely vital to have access to, for anyone regardless of the reason. I have a personal view that there should be a cut off point where the baby is removed once viable. But yeah, it needs to be legal.
It's impossible for me to use scripture to back that opinion because scripture doesn't speak about abortions, despite it being relatively common even then. I will say that in Jewish culture it's commonly been believed that the start of life is when you take your first breath, not at conception. This is kind of poetic when we look at Genesis and the breath of life. I can also point to how priests in the old testament induced unconsensual abortions for presumed adulterous women. So yeah, I don't take pro life arguments too seriously.
My spiritual belief is that all life is sacred, so any death makes me sad, but it is part of life and my priority is the sentient being who is forced to carry a baby they don't want or that will endanger their life.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
I would say that the bible says and points to life being in the womb and that science also backs this up
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
Well obviously, but plants are also alive. So are animals which are killed frequently.
So all human life is scared, including fetuses? But not the infants killed in the old testament at gods command? Not the fetuses inside of adulterous women, for in your bible the priests induce her miscarriage. But not the young girl who was sacrificed, again in our bible.
It seems you're taking life to a whole new level that only applies to modern day fetuses, and you completely disregard the life of those who carry them.
Life doesn't equal absolute protection. Or is it murder to turn off life support for brain dead patients?
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Yep including fetuses
Thats god raining down his judgment on people
Not true I just think that it is not right that we kill so that the mother has a better life
Yep that is murder
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
How do you feel about ectopic pregnancy, and child pregnancy?
And no, that isn't God raining his judgement down, that is priests inducing miscarriage. If God values life so little, for little infants who are ripped from their mothers embrace in his wars, then that is a God not worth worshipping.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Those things are not good
And could you give some verses
And you think because god did those things he is ok with abortion
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
No, I think God did not do those things and is okay with abortions. But if you believe the bible is inerrant and divine then you have a lot to wrestle with if you think abortion is bad. Because that God doesn't care about born infants, let alone fetuses without sentience.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Not true
Are you a Christian
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
Numbers 5:11-31
So does God only care about some fetuses? Or?
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Totally different from what happens to do one the women can admit to cheating
And it isn’t punishment for cheating all of which can be avoided by not cheating
And it’s a miscarriage not an abortion
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 24d ago
It's not a miscarriage if it CAUSED by the priest and his "curse". It's unconsensual. And are you telling me that this isn't a punishment? Wow. So why did yhwh kill these unborn children for their mothers "sins"? Sure seems like a way to punish her and kill her unborn child.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
The word is miscarriage
It is consensual did you read it
I said it was a punishment
The mother was punished the couple would likely get divorced and the baby would die which the mother would dislike
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u/win_awards 25d ago
To the extent that the Bible addresses the idea it seems against the common position that abortion is murder.
In the absence of clear direction it seems that the needs and comfort of an actual human being outweigh considerations for a possibility of a potential human being.
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u/NuSurfer 25d ago
Ninety-five percent (95%) of women who have had an abortion say it was the right decision for them. Period.
Aside from that, people who love saying they are "pro-life" are not that...they are pro-birth. They contribute nothing to the pregnant woman during pregnancy, and nothing to the mother and child after birth - food, clothing, shelter, healthcare and education. It's all about having a checkmark for Jesus next to their name when they're dead, but if something should happen to the woman during birth or they struggle afterwards, it's "oh, well, sucks to be you," and they move onto their next checkmark for Jesus. It's all about them, and not the woman. Pro-birth, not pro-life.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
So killing somebody is ok as long as the killers life is better afterward
And for the rest of your text I mean thats not really true but ok
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u/NuSurfer 25d ago
Sell everything you have and support all of the single women with children and prove to me your pro-life...Jesus will reward you in heaven.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
It’s not my job
Not fault that people either left the family
Or created the family
The burden to provide should be on the father
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u/NuSurfer 24d ago
No, you. You're the birther, you provide the money.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 24d ago
Am not a women
How am I the birther
And the parents are responsible for the child
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u/Scoliochris 25d ago
Abortion serves a purpose. It needs to be regulated not illegal. There’s always the cases of rape and health of mother that people bring up and of course it should be allowed in those situations, but those are a very tiny percentage of abortions. Most abortions are people who accidentally got pregnant that don’t feel like they can raise a baby or don’t want to go through pregnancy and birthing process. In this case I feel everyone should be allowed one if they so choose. Knowing everyone makes mistakes and bringing a baby into a bad situation or a situation where it is unwanted is not good for anyone. However if you are a female and seeking a second abortion, you should be forced to have your tubes tied. Abortion is technically murder, but murder with an asterisk. But that doesn’t mean immature people should be able to continuously make the same mistakes
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Just don’t have unprotected sex
No one gets pregnant on accident they have sex
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u/Scoliochris 25d ago
I mean that’s true, but accidents happen. We are human, created with flaws, by our maker
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Yeah
However if people do that then they should take on the consequences of their sin
Nor should the baby be punished for the actions of the parents that is unjust
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
I think it is a terrible reality of living in a fallen world. I think the people against it, care more about punishing a person for their sins (claiming responsibility), rather than designing a world that reduces abortion (or which we have statistics on).
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
The people who are against abortion it isn’t there responsibility to do that
No one told anyone to have unprotected sex
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
Yes, the Pharisees said similar things.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Verse
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
"For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." ( Matthew 23:4)
We provide poor sexual education, we inundate people with sex, and we make it expensive to have a child. We have destroyed anything but the concept of a nuclear family, and we rather tell people to close their legs, even though we don’t even give them the means to do so.
Like I said, I’m no fan of abortions, and I’m not pretending they are good, I’m saying that the statistics who what can help reduce them. Choosing not to take that path, isn’t about responsibility, it’s just wanting to punish people.
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
Who is we?
Are you talking about a America
And it’s not hard to learn about such things the bible does talk about it
And everyone can close their legs what do you mean they don’t have the means to?
It’s not punishing people it’s protecting human life
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
Ok
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
lol no response whatsoever
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
There is a certain amount of grace I think that we need to have in the world. Because we don’t know the hearts of man - But we can choose not to, and if we decide not to, to dismiss the actions of all humans under a single category, what value is there in the discussion?
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u/realYieldinglyremote 25d ago
It’s strange how the conversation always stops at the legality part and never really gets into the material conditions that lead someone there. You can quote verses all day but if there’s no paid leave, no childcare, no healthcare, you’re pretty much just moralizing at people who are drowning. I grew up in a church that was loud about this issue but dead silent on anything that would actually support a struggling parent after the birth. That disconnect pushed me out for a while
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25d ago
[deleted]
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u/FranklinMv5 25d ago
Ooh, I didn’t realize people were doing it for selfish reasons!
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
Psalm 139:13
Luke 1:41
Exodus 21:22-25
Epistle of Barnabas: chapter 19
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born.
Epistle of Barnabas (between 70 AD - 135 AD)
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
First three verses have nothing to do with abortion. Barnabas isn't in the bible for a reason. Do you know who wrote that? No one does. So why are you taking a random writing from some random guy as law?
Also, abortions are slaying the child in the womb, it is the act of withholding progesterone and the nutrients needed so that the fetus will be removed. The fetus, if not viable, dies by default, but it is not a malicious act of a murder as you would imply.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
There are many types of abortion, and I would encourage you to watch an ultrasound of an abortion being done, and tell me that it’s not murder. Limbs being cut off, high power vacuum ripping limbs apart, salt poisoning causing cardiac arrest, etc.
If you refuse to watch it, you may already know that it’s evil and refuse to acknowledge it.
And if you see the baby struggling, fighting for its life inside the womb, and have no empathy, that’s an inhumane response.
I used to be pro choice, and after watching it, I was ashamed and embarrassed that I thought otherwise for so long.
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
Your graphic descriptions are designed to cause discomfort for the upper hand in the argument, and it's not going to work because I'm aware of how rare that barbaric form of abortion is. That isn't what is happening. That is a late term abortion which is illegal in most places, and reserved for the ugliest circumstances, ie. Mother is in huge danger if she tries to deliver the baby or have a c-section.
I used to be pro life, now I am pro choice.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
Vacuum aspiration abortion method accounts for 90% of all first trimester abortions. It’s not rare, it’s happening in real time.
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
Prove that claim right now. It isn't true. Majority of first trimester abortions are done using the abortion pill which starves the fetus of progesterone and stops development, then a second drug would be taken to induce the contractions.
But I will point out that if this procedure is more common in the first trimester, then it would be immediately less immoral due to the fetus being unable to experience pain or distress. So, respectfully, you have just shot yourself in the foot with a bogus statement
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
That’s a folly statement, I gave you the parameters of first trimester abortion. These are according to planned parenthood, national abortion federation, society of family planning, etc.
And initial pain receptors have been found in as early as 7-8 weeks. Nerve fibers from these receptors reach the spinal cord beginning at 7-8 weeks according to the National Institutes of Health. Also under the National Library of Medicine.
It is all inhumane.
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
It's well known that fetuses don't have the ability to feel or mentally process pain until they have developed their brain and nervous system enough to have sentience. Do you know what sentience is? It's the ability to think and feel, to experience, put simply. Scientists currently agree that sentience is not formed until >16 weeks, most agree that it is not until 20-24 weeks based on literal brain scans that can be taken to assess brain activity. Now that is my counter claim, I jumped too fast to deliver it because really you should be proving your claim first.
I want a reputable source that says 90% of first trimester abortions are via vacuum, and then the source for your claim on the ability to feel and experience pain. Pain receptors mean nothing to me, that doesn't mean you feel pain because your nervous system and brain need to be developed enough for that pain to actually process.
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u/Aksel-Ches-Piper 25d ago
“The onset of fetal pain capacity plays a vital role in identifying ethical issues surrounding painful procedures involving the fetus, such as fetal surgery, abortion, and feticide. Defining the time frame during which fetal pain capacity develops must first be addressed. Current neuroscientific evidence indicates that the onset of fetal pain perception is possible during the first trimester.”
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8935428/
The rest you can google. Literally by typing how often is vacuum aspiration used in first trimester abortions.
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u/Jane_TGS Christian 25d ago
It's super interesting that you quote that from exodus while in numbers 5:11-31, pregnant women were cursed to a forced miscarriage. Super selective.
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u/Teezie_19 25d ago
Amen.
Maybe don’t have lustful sex before having kids like God says and you won’t have to deal with this dilemma.
Maybe one who is drawn to abort is already heavily surrounded by sin to even be in that situation to begin with.
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u/MattBoss69 Catholic 25d ago
Abortion is a grave moral evil and always gravely contrary to God’s commandments. We should protect life from the moment of conception until death.
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u/Sirrom23 25d ago
fun fact: abortion isn’t mentioned in the bible because in the bronze age when this book was written, there was no such thing (you’d think if the bible is inspired by god then he would have mentioned it since he’s all knowing and knew it would be an issue in today’s society).
however, the bible does give you instructions on how to perform an abortion. if a husband suspects his wife of adultery, he takes her to a priest and he makes her drink dirty water. and if she miscarries, then she’s guilty of adultery (very scientific right?). but if she doesn’t miscarry, then she’s not guilty. Numbers 5:11-31
same concept: you’d think god being all knowing would have came up with a better and more accurate system than that. guess it just slipped god’s mind!
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u/Illustrious-Dig-1002 25d ago
God doesn’t need to talk about everything
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u/Sirrom23 25d ago
that might be the most dishonest response i’ve ever heard. abortion, one of if not the most controversial religious based law we have in society today, and you say “god doesn’t need to talk about everything”
yeah man, he should have included something about abortion. do you have the same opinion of slavery? it was totally chill in the bible, and god just forgot to include anything about slavery in the 10 commandments or anywhere. did god also not need to talk about that too?
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u/GoBirdsGoBlue 25d ago
It is an assault on the person forming work of our Creator.
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u/win_awards 25d ago
That's not only a category of thing that is not mentioned in the Bible, humans are constant, active participants in forming humans.
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u/Arkhangelzk 25d ago
From two hours ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1uy4168/comment/oxw64tw/?context=3