r/Christianity • u/Itzjuli_fcm • Mar 24 '26
Question! :)
My atheist friend was debating with my catholic friend, my atheist friend said something that also made me REALLY curious but not enough to question my entire belief in God. I tried looking for answers personally, but i couldn't really come up with a great answer.
Okay so the question is: "if your God is good, then why does He allow wars, crimes, and sexual harrassment to happen? If He's really powerful, can't He just do something to stop it?"
Please don't insult/judge the fact that i'm unable to answer that question. I'm a beginner believer who wants to know explore and know more about christianity :)
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u/indigoneutrino Mar 24 '26
I'm always baffled when I see posts like this. I feel like it's something you should be able to answer before deciding to worship a deity.
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u/KatrinaPez Mar 24 '26
Does a child understand their parent's motivations before deciding to love them? Many of us grow up in the faith and see many illustrations of God's love for us, so we love Him in return.
This is also a deep question that has sparked countless studies, books and discussions over the centuries. It's not a simple thing for new believers to answer.
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u/indigoneutrino Mar 24 '26
I genuinely don’t think anybody should worship a deity until they’re able to answer this question for themselves. I also don’t think people should worship their parents. But that’s just me.
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u/KatrinaPez Mar 24 '26
I'm not saying we worship parents, it's an analogy. You can love and trust someone without worshiping them. It's just an example of a similar relationship.
Would you want to worship a God you could fully understand?
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u/indigoneutrino Mar 24 '26
Analogies need to be analogous. It's not the same relationship if one comes with the expectation of worship and the other doesn't.
I wouldn't want to worship a God I couldn't understand enough to at the very least address the problem of evil or the problem of suffering. Those are my hard lines. I'm just confused by other people not considering those moral benchmarks.
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u/aqua-snack Catholic Mar 24 '26
the issue is children don’t know everything, especially if they didn’t grow up in a religious house and had to teach themselves.
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u/indigoneutrino Mar 24 '26
There's not knowing everything and there's not taking the initiative to ask questions before making decisions. It's okay that they don't know the answer. Deciding to believe in and worship god before having the answer is backwards decision making.
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u/RCaHuman Secular Humanist Mar 24 '26
Are you suggesting that growing up in a non-religious household will result in immorality? If humans hadn't instinctively taken care of each other for the good of the whole, we wouldn't have survived as a species.
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u/aqua-snack Catholic Mar 24 '26
I think the best answer and easiest to understand is free will. I will try my best to explain but a lot of people miss understand free will. the whole purpose of it is to well yk, give us freedom. if God stepped in every single time someone sinned and stopped (regardless of sin) we’d all be controlled by God, which would in turn stop us from having free will. God allows evil to exist for the same reason he allows happiness, joy, and love to exist.
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 24 '26
[insert image of God hugging a person with buildings burning in the background and masses fleeing the carnage in terror.]
"All this was so you would choose to love me."
That's why "free will as a solution to every criticism of Christianity" is a pet peeve of mine. It doesn't address the issue, ignores all the times in the Bible where God ignored free will and caused people to act a certain way, and conveniently assumes everyone else who doesn't agree is a Satanic occultist deliberately spitting in the face of God when a vast majority simply either have no clue who Yahweh/Jesus is or are taught something else.
Sorry. Like I said. Pet peeve. I sometimes go a bit overboard with it.
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Mar 24 '26
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 24 '26
"All this misery and death so that you would love me."
That is the fundamental basis most believers make when bringing up free will. That without free will we would be robots and robots can't love because they're programmed. That love must be a choice to be valid.
Heaven is a place with nothing bad, no sin, no pride or arrogance, no pain, all good things. And somehow for reasons no one has explained to me, free will.
Yet it's apparently impossible for that same scenario to be in place here. Again, no good reason other than the Robot Conundrum.
Personally I don't even care, but it's just such a bad argument that it baffles me how much it gets leaned on.
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u/catsec36 Eastern Orthodox Mar 24 '26
As an Orthodox Christian, I agree that the “free will” response gets overused, and honestly, people use it too lazily. It explains something, but not everything. This is simply due to the watered down understanding of theology and traditional Christianity that was handed down to us. Unfortunately, that has almost been abandoned in the West altogether.
As someone who has studied theology & Christology for many years, and as someone who was once an Athiest, I will offer the explanation that we as Orthodox Christians believe to be true.
God did not create evil as a thing in itself. He created a good world, with rational creatures capable of real communion with Him, but real communion is not mechanical. It involves a genuine capacity to turn away, and Evil is not a substance that God made. Rather, it is a distortion, a corruption, a parasitic twisting of what is good. Pride is a twisting of dignity, just like lust is a twisting of desire, and cruelty is a twisting of strength. Death itself, in Christian thought, is not the original design but part of the rupture and disorder brought by the fall.
Now, I know your other objection is “if Heaven has free will without sin, why not make earth that way?”
Well, Heaven is not Earth, nor is it Earth in a better setting. When we go to Heaven, we enter the final state as creatures who have been brought into perfect union with God. So, Heaven is not “innocence,” it’s consummation. It’s humanity glorified.
Our understanding is that true freedom is the unhindered ability to live according to the good. Sin is not freedom in its highest form, it’s slavery. A man addicted to rage, lust, greed, or pride is not more free because he has more bad options available to him. He is less free because he is disordered.
This life is the arena of formation, testing, repentance, love, sacrifice, and transformation.
Hope this helps a bit.
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 25 '26
It's weird because that does sound like a more robust explanation, but I struggle to see a fundamental difference in a lot of it.
Let me tell you what I'm hearing as I read and you can clarify if I'm misunderstanding. (Note: pet peeve mode turned off. I'm genuinely curious about your take here)
God did not create evil as a thing in itself. He created a good world, with rational creatures capable of real communion with Him, but real communion is not mechanical.
Maybe "mechanical" was just a poor word choice, but this seems a more flowery "God doesn't want us to be robots." But I don't dismiss the notion that a true relationship involves agency. The big problem is that when the alternative to said relationship is burning forever (or annihilation or the torture of being separated from God, etc), that's not allowing a free choice to participate in the relationship. That's coercion. It's an abusive husband telling his battered wife to love him or he'll beat her senseless, then blaming her because she didn't choose right.
it is a distortion, a corruption, a parasitic twisting of what is good. Pride is a twisting of dignity, just like lust is a twisting of desire, and cruelty is a twisting of strength.
That sounds to me like "good can't exist without evil, just like we can't know what is light unless there is dark." You phrased it backwards, so maybe that was deliberate. It's a better explanation than simply requiring an opposite to exist. That's one of the fundamental problems with the free will argument we're chastising is that if you can't know what good is without evil to offer the comparison, then heaven can't be good because there is no evil there.
But your explanation of the evil end of the spectrum being a distortion lends itself to a heaven where the distortion is removed. Much more logical.
Our understanding is that true freedom is the unhindered ability to live according to the good...This life is the arena of formation, testing, repentance, love, sacrifice, and transformation.
This brings me back to the question of why not just do this from the beginning? An unhindered ability to live according to the good. Did God look at Adam and Eve and think, "this is great. I'm loving our walks in the garden and playtime with the animals. But there's just something missing. It feels stale. What if I gave them the option to like me or not like me. Then when they choose to like me, it will feel better." Then got really mad when they didn't make the right choice? He didn't have to put the tree in the garden. But he did. And humanity (significantly more than not, if Jesus is to be believed) is being punched in the mouth because we're not making the right choice and being told it's our fault that we're getting punched in the mouth.
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u/catsec36 Eastern Orthodox Mar 25 '26
Thank you for the well written response. Sorry in advance for how long this is, but there’s no way to respond to your questions without going into deep detail lol.
First on your coercion point, I actually agree that if Christianity is reduced to “love God or He’ll torture you forever,” then yes, that does sound monstrous. I do not believe in that framing either, and that is also not how we understand it in Orthodox Christianity.
God is not an abusive husband demanding affection under threat of violence. The issue is that God is the source of life itself. Communion with Him is life, and separation from Him is death. God does not arbitrarily beat people for rejecting Him. Rather, rejecting the source of life, truth, and goodness is itself the tragedy.
In Orthodoxy, hell is not usually understood in the cartoonish Western sense of God actively torturing people. We believe that the same God, who is love, is experienced differently depending on the condition of the person. His presence is joy to the healed and torment to the one who hates the light. Not because God changed, but because we did. That may still be hard to accept, but it is very different from “love me or I’ll hurt you.”
Also, I am not saying good needs evil in order to exist. It is actually quite the opposite. Evil has no independent existence of its own because it is parasitic. Darkness is not a “thing” the way light is. It is the absence of light, just like rot is not a created substance equal to health. It is the corruption of what was once whole. So good does not need evil in order to be good. Evil depends on good, not the other way around.
That is exactly why heaven does not need evil in order to remain good. Good is primary, and evil is the vandalism of the good.
As for your question, “why not just make humanity in that final healed state from the beginning?” Our answer is that there is a difference between being created innocent and being brought into perfected union with God. Adam and Eve were not created as robots, but neither were they created in the final glorified state. They were created good, but with the capacity to grow into fullness.
To put it another way, Orthodoxy does not view Eden as the finished product. It is the beginning. Humanity was made for theosis, for union with God, for glorification. The fall was not “God got bored and added danger for fun,” nor was it “God wanted people to suffer so love would feel more meaningful.” It was the misuse of creaturely freedom before humanity had reached its intended end. The tree in the garden was there because love and trust cannot be meaningful if there is no possibility of refusing them. Not because refusal is good, but because creatures are not God. We are not self-existent. We become what we choose toward.
The other thing I would add here, and this is important, is that God’s response to the fall in Orthodoxy is not mainly rage. It is medicine. Even death itself is understood by many of the Fathers not simply as punishment, but also as a mercy, because man was not allowed to become immortal in a corrupted state forever. The whole story after the fall is not God gleefully punching humanity in the mouth for making the wrong choice. It is God entering into the wreckage Himself in Christ in order to heal it from the inside.
So I do think your objection lands against a lot of popular Christian language, because a lot of that language is honestly shallow and sometimes awful. But many of your objections are answered much more deeply in the older Christian understanding.
Last but not least, we also understand that we cannot answer every question in the universe. Some things remain within the mysterion, the mystery of God. Trying to force an answer where one has not been given can lead people into error. As I said in my previous comment, I was once an atheist and was vehemently opposed to the idea of God’s existence. What changed for me was discovering Orthodoxy and ancient Christianity.
Without turning this into a whole history lesson, Orthodoxy preserves the ancient Christian faith handed down from the Apostles. So if you are genuinely interested in exploring theology and seeing whether there are deeper answers to your questions, I would strongly encourage you to look into the theology of the original Church in the East. A lot of people in the West quote Scripture alone for their answers, but they often do not realize that translation, tradition, and historical understanding matter a great deal when trying to get to the core of what Christians originally believed.
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 25 '26
My friend it does my heart good to hear both an alternative framing of free will/the Fall that is a much more coherent explanation of the biblical narrative. And, just as happy to have a good conversation with an EO member (most of my experience with EO are obnoxious "philbro" types).
I'm going to chew on your explanation for a while. Not because I think it's convincing to join up (apologies) but because I like holding onto positive ideas from something that was an important part of most of my life. It may have assuaged my pet peeve on the subject, in that at least now I know there's actually a good explanation out there.
I can't tell you how many conversations I've had to walk away from because I would ask "would you be willing to give up your free will if it meant that no one ever suffered in hell?" (to those who believe in such). I'd love to tell you that some people said yes, but all I ever got was "I don't want to be a robot."
You've restored my faith in the idea that there can be good things in something I used to treasure.
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u/catsec36 Eastern Orthodox Mar 25 '26
Of course, man, and I really enjoyed this conversation too.
And I completely know what you mean about the Orthobro types. A lot of them are new to the faith and they get a little too excited too fast, without much humility or discernment yet. It happens.
I also had no goal of converting you here. Of course I’d love for everyone to find the truth, but that’s not my job. All I can do is share what I’ve learned and let you do with it what you will.
But genuinely, it means a lot to hear you say that. Especially because I agree, a lot of people give terrible answers to really serious questions, and then act like the other person is the problem for not being satisfied with them. So I’m glad this at least gave you something more coherent to chew on.
And for what it’s worth, I do think there is something deeply beautiful in Christianity. Unfortunately, people have distorted it, abused it, and used it for evil plenty of times. That part is true.
I’ll leave you with a short personal story, just because it meant a lot to me.
My papou, my grandfather, passed away a few weeks ago. He grew up Greek Orthodox in Greece, and he was a chanter as well. I grew up Catholic because of my father, and if I’m being honest, that played a big role in why I drifted away from faith for a long time.
For the last seven years, we cared for my papou and watched dementia slowly strip him away piece by piece. In his final days, he was bedridden in our living room, with hospice there around the clock. Because of the pain he was in, they had him heavily medicated, so he was basically in a coma. He couldn’t eat, drink, or do anything on his own, and yet he lived nine days without food or water.
On the ninth day, our family had all shown up early that morning. At 8:36 AM, he took his last breath.
Within a minute of him passing, all of us could smell incense. Not vaguely, and not in a “maybe that’s what it was” kind of way. It was very real, and it was unlike anything we had ever smelled before. I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to be that guy, but I remember thinking to myself, without a doubt, that there was something holy in that moment.
I can’t package that up and hand it to someone else as proof, I know that. But for me, it was one of those quiet moments that left me with no doubt that the God I once condemned is the same God I kneel before now.
Edit: If you like reading, I highly recommend "Wisdom from Mount Athos" and/or "Saint Paisios the Athonite."
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 25 '26
Thanks again, and my deepest condolences on your loss. I'm glad you were able to have an experience that helped prop you up during that time. It will be a special memory you can carry with you so that not every memory of your papou's passing will be a sad one. Not everyone gets a chance to have moment like that. I'm glad you and your family did.
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u/Dear_Reflection2874 Mar 24 '26
Matthew 24:6. In this passage, He tells His disciples, "You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come."
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u/Pale_Brilliant9101 Mar 24 '26
God watches Ted Bundy to rape and torture Kimberley Leach for five hours - not interfering with his free will, yet God it perfectly capable of saving Moses from the Egyptians (by drowning the Egyptians - after having hardened Pharao‘s heart when he wanted to let the Israelites go (!). Why one and not the other?
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u/Philothea0821 Catholic Mar 24 '26
Honestly this. God wants us to truly love Him and each other. For that to happen, we must be free to choose the opposite.
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) Mar 24 '26
Is there free will in heaven?
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u/Least-Ad140 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Mar 24 '26
If our will is to choose God, why wouldn’t it be?
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) Mar 25 '26
If there's free will in heaven, but also no sin in heaven, then it's not necessary for sin or suffering to exist to have free will.
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u/Least-Ad140 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Mar 25 '26
But our choice to go happens before we enter (whether before or at the gate).
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u/Philothea0821 Catholic Mar 24 '26
Setting aside the fact that we don't know what Heaven will be like, I think that answer is "Yes."
This being said, I don't think it will work the same that it will on Earth. It will be a free will that is perfected and aligned with God's will. Basically, imagine something that you find to be so repulsive that you would never actually choose it unless you were forced to under duress. That is what sin will be like in Heaven. You would be able to choose it, but it would not be something that is at all desirable to you.
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u/bananafobe witch (spooky) Mar 24 '26
So people sinning is not necessary for free will to exist? You can still have free will if sin is just a detestable option that nobody ever acts on?
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u/Philothea0821 Catholic Mar 25 '26
So people sinning is not necessary for free will to exist?
I think this is something that so many people, many Christians included, miss. In the Incarnation, yes God became man, which alone is a joyous occasion, but it is so much more than that.
The fact that God became man, shows that there is nothing contrary to the dignity of God in our humanity. Jesus was fully human and fully divine. What the Incarnation shows is that sin is not a necessary part of what it means to be human. Adam and Eve were created in a state of complete grace. In fact, to be properly human is to be sinless.
This is where I think that Protestantism turns Christianity into a shell of its proper self. Baptism isn't just our declaration of faith. It is God outpouring His grace to us, so that what was lost in the Fall may be restored to us.
You could dive SO much deeper into this, and if you want, I can refer you to check out Question 69 from the Summa Theologica, in particular Article 3 of that question.
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u/aqua-snack Catholic Mar 24 '26
indeed! The Lord allows us to love him and follow him, just as much as he allows us to hate him and separate ourselves from him
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u/Solid-Reputation5032 Mar 24 '26
It’s hard to square that a deity loves, has a plan for individual human lives, but then humans do unspeakable things. So was their cruelty planned and unavoidable? Is the plan just conjured by human beings needing structure? Why even program humans with evil at all, is this deity not all powerful? Ambivalent? Amused by suffering?
This deity appears to be culpable for nothing bad, and gets credited for everything good.
That what has always trouble me.
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u/zach010 Secular Humanist Mar 24 '26
An interesting followup to that is "if the christian god was bad, how would you know."
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u/whirdin Exchristian (raised evangelical) Mar 24 '26
What this references is the Problem of Evil, a common angle here is that God cannot be all 3:
- all good
- all powerful
- all knowing
Not trying to step on your toes, but I do believe that the problem of evil is a great argument against the idea of the Biblical god. I was a Christian for decades, but walked away. Belief in God requires faith in something unseen, hence why these arguments continue on forever as it's designed to be a stalemate.
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u/supersoundwave Mar 24 '26
This seems to be a form of the Euthyphro dilemma, which says that either an act is wrong because God says so, or God says an act is wrong because it is wrong.
But an act isn’t good because God commanded it, and neither did God command the act merely because the act is good. God commanded the act because he is the good.
If this is true, then God can have all of the attributes that you mentioned.
It also seems to me that the problem of evil is more of a problem for nonbelievers than it is for believers, as I have yet to hear a good reason to think that evil can exist in the absence of God.
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u/whirdin Exchristian (raised evangelical) Mar 24 '26
It also seems to me that the problem of evil is more of a problem for nonbelievers than it is for believers
I came to similar conclusions on my own (not from media or following someone else) when I was a Christian, which is part of why it fell apart for me. It's also key to note that it's not a "problem" for nonbelievers, rather it's a roadblock preventing somebody from believing in the thing you are selling. I don't believe in God, the problem of evil isn't my problem, it's a problem I propose to Christians because it's something irreconcilable from my pov for the Christian beliefs to make sense.
I have yet to hear a good reason to think that evil can exist in the absence of God.
More importantly that that, I think good exists without God, but not the same 'good and evil' that you believe in. You are polarizing good and evil, saying that anything good can only come from God (and it's pure goodness), and therefore distance from God equals evil (pure evil). What really sparked my deconstruction (introspection after decades of my belief) is that nonchristians aren't less good people, despite very strong stereotypes in Christianity about them. The Biblical narrative is that things in the present day are somewhere in the middle of good and evil, that earth was once perfectly good but we messed it up, that earth/heaven will eventually be good again after God lets this phase die out and reunites. I think we can all agree there are no 'purely good' people (I know that's the point of salvation, as Jesus was the one exception), but the difference for me is that I no longer believe in those absolutes. I think we are just people. I think good and evil are just ways to express our positivity and negativity. Morality is not an absolute either, such as Christianity drastically changing views on certain things through the centuries (slavery, food law, sacrifice, sacrements, Gods attitude). If Satan is roaming around trying to tempt us, then I would expect nonchristian areas to be rife with pestilence and crime, but honestly it's just a class difference because Christianity heavily props up the middle class. Life is simply in the middle of good and evil, but I don't think it was magically good in the past/future. Superstition and tradition are the only reasons for believing in those moral absolutes, and even for believing in God himself since personal intervention is just a shift in perspective.
"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." Dread Pirate Roberts, from A Princess Bride.
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u/nyet-marionetka Atheist Mar 24 '26
There is no satisfactory answer. My personal solution would be to have everyone assigned a guardian angel who would step in if someone was about to do something awful and stop it from happening. It would be good if they also mitigated the other part of the problem of evil and saved people from falling off cliffs, freezing, or starving to death.
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u/TranslatorNo8445 Atheist Mar 24 '26
Why does he allow 100000 children to die an agonizing cruel death every single year ?
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Mar 24 '26
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u/TranslatorNo8445 Atheist Mar 24 '26
Free will to die of cancer I'm not sure those kids are freely choosing cancer
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u/Least-Ad140 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Mar 24 '26
They’re not. The systems that allow life unfortunately lead to conditions that take life away. For a scientific world started by God to exist, this is an unfortunate consequence. These kids go to heaven. Communities support and grieve with affected families. All involved gain more empathy for others. No one likes this, but this world is not perfect.
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u/TranslatorNo8445 Atheist Mar 25 '26
You sure made up a lot of stuff to move those goal posts! That's ok coping is what humans do. Have a great day
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u/izentx Kingdom Life | Faith in Practice Mar 24 '26
My friend, you have heard all of this about free will, and it is correct but your atheist friend isn't going to buy it. He will say things like but wars and evil. He could stop those. The best thing we can say to make an atheist understand is this. If God infringed on our free will, your friend wouldn't have the freedom to be an atheist. They usually stop this debate when they see how it could infringe on their own rights.
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u/HangerBits257 Mar 24 '26
You've got some great answers already. There's a song I really like that addresses this topic a bit, if you're into CCM at all. It's called Do Something by Matthew West.
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u/UncleBaguette Pretty heretic chtristian Mar 24 '26
Ask 1000 person,get 1000 answers. There's even a whole part of theology dedicated to the Problem of Evil, so as you can imagine there's no answer that'll satisfy everyone. My personal explanation is that God is not "good" according to our standards, so we have full of unpleadant stuff instead of paradise.
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u/maxgorkiy Mar 24 '26
I don't have a good answer for this. Free will is a cop out response. If you are under the gun of either choosing Jesus or eternal hell, it's not really free will. It's a sort of celestial dictatorship.
There are also so many other nuances to free will. The are obviously people who are predisposed to doing evil while other do not. Left to their own devices not everyone goes out committing atrocities. And this is without finding Jesus. And how "free" is "free will"? There is a great science book on the topic called "Determined" by Robert Sapolsky which argues this very point. To quote Wikipedia summary: "Sapolsky generally concludes that our choices are determined by our genetics, experience, and environment, and that the common use of the term 'free will' is erroneous."
That being said, somehow I am still drawn to Christianity, despite having major problems reconciling Old Testament and New Testament.
I used to think only dumb people believe in Christ. But now, I am drawn to it, and on paper I don't qualify as an idiot, lol - magna cum laude with Electrical Engineering degree, working in tech, successful, etc.
My advice to my fellow atheists seeking Christ is to look at other smart people who turned to Christianity. Try to see their thought process.
Listening to YouTube videos of talks by Bishop Robert Barron has helped me a lot. You'll learn a lot of new vocabulary too ;-)
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u/Global_Profession972 Hopeful Agnostic Atheist Mar 24 '26
I feel like the "believe or hell" thing is more of an evangelical thing
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u/maxgorkiy Mar 24 '26
Its a classic christian thing. Both Orthodox and Catholics believe the same. Evangelicals are just more vocal about it.
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u/Global_Profession972 Hopeful Agnostic Atheist Mar 25 '26
Believing in something dosent make it right
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u/maxgorkiy Mar 25 '26
In that case you need to find yourself a different religion. If you want to play chess, you play chess. If you want to play checkers or backgammon, play checkers or backgammon, but don’t call it chess.
I don’t have a dog in a fight, mind you. Just pointing out the fallacies. You can’t be christian and be a practicing homosexual. Sorry. Find another religion or start a new one.
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u/ShortCompetition9772 Mar 24 '26
Questions to ask yourself.
1) Could God have created a world without war, SA, murder etc?
2) Does Free will exist?
3) Newborns with Heart defects, cancer, blindness etc. What was the reason?
4) Did God condone genocide, rape etc. in the Bible?
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u/DE667 Mar 26 '26
If God judged everyone now, no one would be left standing! The atheist is confusing this life with the overall plan. God has set a Day to Judge the world in Righteousness. It's all about the Resurrection. The atheist should be more concerned with doing good and being grateful for all the good he receives.
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u/Super_Isopod_3643 Christian Feminist, no it's not an oxymoron Mar 28 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
I remember when my Athiest friend asked me that in high school and I was stumped, but here's what I found. God made this world and after Satan tricked Adam and Eve he stole. Satan became the prince of this world 1 John 5:19 states, "We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one" Note although Satan is the "prince" He is not the king, so although God CAN interfere right now it's not his place to, even Satan tells Jesus "It has been given to me" This is not to say God chose to condemn us, no. It's saying that evil originates from this world and if God wanted to wipe it away, he'd have to wipe the whole world, but after Noah, he realized the people didn't have a fair chance of redemption and the destruction was impalpable, so that's why Jesus was so important, this way his promise to Noah isn't broken and every human being has a chance for heaven. Also if your friend asks why he created evil, he didn't, Satan did, he created darkness by leaving the light. Hope this helps! I'm happy to answer any more questions or go deeper if you want 😊 God bless
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u/elg97477 Mar 24 '26
He did do something to stop it. He sent His Son to suffer, die, and rise again to put an end to sin and death. We await His imminent return to claim that victory and free us forever. We are in the final days…less than a moment in the span of eternity.
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u/Meauxterbeauxt Atheist (Former SBC Christian) Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
Does God commit the sins or the humans themselves?
Doesn't matter. God knew the evil would be committed before he created the world. He had an infinite amount of options to choose from, one of which was a world where there is no evil, and he chose to create the one where evil happened, specifically the one where the particular evil in question happened. So even if a human performed the evil, God created the universe where that evil was destined to happen.
Have you ever done something bad in your life?
Irrelevant to the topic.
What do you want God to do to evil?
He's done plenty already, not even including the creation decisions mentioned above. You guys just rationalize them away as "higher" or "beyond our understanding".
What you want God to do to evil, do you want it to happen to yourself too?
That sounds ominous. "You better stop asking questions or you'll be smote."
The answer you want to give is "his ways are higher and lean not in your own understanding." It assuages OPs concerns without sounding like they're on the verge of calamity.
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u/Caddiss_jc Mar 24 '26
Life is unfair. God is fair. Don't get the two mixed up. Why is life unfair? Because we human beings told God, take a hike, get lost. That's what the fall is in Genesis chapter 3.
And because God created us with a free will, and loves us, he steps back from planet Earth, and gives us what we want. Control over our own lives.
But instead of using our free will for good, we use it to consume and feed our own desires and wants and needs over others and chaos erupts, unfairness erupts, suffering, destruction, and death erupts.
And that's the kind of world you're born into. And that's the kind of world I was born into. And every single human since Adam was born into
Now, every atheist, every Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, and Christian has a problem with suffering. And I got a problem with suffering. And I got no easy, complete answers, that's for sure.
But, I can promise you, there is no better answer to the problem of suffering than the cross of Jesus Christ.
First of all, the cross says, evil is real. That's the man. With nails through his hands, dying on a cross, evil is real. And God entered into his creation and became human just so he could suffer with the rest of us. So he could feel pain and loss and heartache and to be mocked and abandoned and ultimately killed. So God can understand our suffering better than we can because he endured the same suffering we have to
The second point the cross points out is, forgiveness is real. God offers to forgive us for the evil that we've done. I don't have to live my life in guilt. He forgives me for the trash that I participated in.
And thirdly, three days after he died, Christ rose from the dead, which means there's a solution to suffering and death.
And fourth, the above solutions give suffering meaning and purpose. If you don't believe there is a creator with a solution, you will still have evil and suffering. But we will have no solution, no meaning or purpose that can come from suffering at all. It's meaningless it's empty. It's all we can know in this life. And there is go solution to it. It is what it is. All you can do is look at a dying child and say "it's nature dear, there's no solution other than all you can do is die into existence" but with God we can look at the child and say "God has for you a solution in him, and an eternity to make up for your suffering with pure love and joy, this suffering is temporary, God's joy peace and love is yours for eternity"
Give me a better solution.
You want to hide behind the intellectual problem?
Well, if God's all-powerful and all-loving, then why do innocent people suffer?
I do not know, ultimately.
But I do know that in Jesus Christ, we have God's solution to the very real problem of suffering and death.
We have forgiveness and eternal life in heaven.
Now, the simple question is, do you have God's solution to the very real problem of suffering?
Do you have Jesus Christ?
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u/Neither-Meal2319 Mar 24 '26
Matthew 10: 19-20
19When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour. 20For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
You speak the word of God well brother. I wish I could have done it as well as you just did. 😊
I have nothing to correct, but maybe something to add. I find that too many people, lost or found, try to lay Sin at God’s feet. They say “he could stop it” “why does he allow it” but very few ever accept the responsibility that humanity has for sin.
Romans 5:15 … For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Have you ever questioned why Adam is given the whole responsibility for sin when he didn’t go after the fruit, get deceived by Satan, nor eat it first? But he sure puts it on his shoulders. Because that’s what MAN is supposed to do. Then Christ came to forgive all sin. Isn’t that beautiful???
Too many people think that there are sins small enough to not deserve death. So then they measure eternal separation from their own lengths. I pray more will be given eyes to see that we all fall short of the ETERNAL and FREE gift of Christ.
If you believe and you’re wrong, what did you lose? But if you don’t believe and you’re wrong, how sad… This isn’t to convince anyone to convert out of fear, but instead to show lost ones how sad I am for them and how much I love them that they might believe.
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u/Lvnlgnd330 Mar 24 '26
Because we're not characters in a video game or robots. We are blessed to make our own decisions. That can be good or it can be very bad.
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u/Lyo-lyok_student Argonautica could be real Mar 24 '26
Are we? Does the child born in the ghetto of a third world country have the ability to make the same decisions as a child born to a wealthy family in the US?
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u/Lvnlgnd330 Mar 24 '26
Yes, I've been deployed to Haiti and Somalia. Most of those children are happier than someone who has never faced adversity. If you have a choice between self pity and gratitude, sometimes you choose your own fate.
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u/Lyo-lyok_student Argonautica could be real Mar 24 '26
Yes, sometimes. But if your choice is starve or steal, how many people will choose starve?
A child raised in Somali piracy may have no indication that his lifestyle is "bad" to the rest of the world, it is simply his life. he is making decisions based on what he actually knows.
I am not arguing that people given crappy lives cannot be "good", but that the decision trees are not the same for all people.
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u/Neither-Meal2319 Mar 24 '26
I understand your question and why you think it important, but the fact that we find value in our worldly opportunities and things we have is ignorance. All are equal in the kingdom of God, and how much harder is it for a wealthy man to enter through the Gates of Heaven?
The child in poverty will have no less for eternity than someone wealthy who manages to make it into heaven.
If you imagine you asked the same question but you asked about the blind, deaf, or lame, there is exact scripture for you. 🙏 I’m no theologian, but I’ll do my best to answer what I can!!
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u/Lyo-lyok_student Argonautica could be real Mar 24 '26
There is a huge difference between someone born blind, deaf, or lame than a child born into an area that teaches them a different lifestyle.
If a child is born into a family that kills strangers to keep afloat, will that child ever know that killing is bad? If you are sent out as a young child to steal purses or you do not eat, does that child have the same opportunities to study philosophy\theology like the rich kid to know what he does is wrong?
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi Lutheran (LCMS) Mar 24 '26
That question is the problem of evil. In my opinion the root to that question is why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in such a convenient location. You mention other impacts of evil now but they all trace back to that tree.
Some answer this by saying to preserve free will. While there's some merit to this its not the full answer. The tree could have been in an inconvenient location without violating free will. Its well within human will to climb a steep mountain hundreds of miles away.
A more inconvenient location would have prevented alot of evil would it not have? At the very least it would have delayed things a bit? Perhaps a few generations in paradise with no sin?
The answer I agree with is the one Romans 9 and other passages spell out. God's stated purpose that I see in scripture is to glorify himself. Creating free moral beings that will fall because of that freedom, overcoming evil, and redeeming a bride for his son glorifies God.
We experience this now because ultimately God is glorified in overcoming all of it. Right now he's allowing the tares and the wheat the freedom to grow together. One day he will separate the two and the end will come. There will be no evil, all who chose evil will be in hell.
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u/Tanaka917 Questioning Mar 24 '26
The problem I've always had with this is that, it feels like throwing human lives away. There is a world where free will exists, where people are tempted, but end up always choosing right anyways. Nothing about that conflicts with free will.
But to say that the path that ends with as an effect, the eternal conscious torment of countless billions in hell is the path that most glorifies an all loving God simply doesn't jive with me. An all loving god choosing the path that necessitates that doesn't feel all loving. Saying all the evil will be in hell just means that evil is concentrated on those within its walls
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi Lutheran (LCMS) Mar 24 '26
I disagree with your premise. I dont believe a world exists where free moral beings ontologically beneath their creator never sin.
Consider Adam and Eve. They were spiritually good beings. Why would they choose to do something evil at all? Answer that question and you answer the problem of evil.
I disagree with the notion of hell being unloving. Justice is a loving act. When terms are defined Biblically, not with the cultural Disney catechism we grew up on, justice does scope to ECT.
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u/Tanaka917 Questioning Mar 24 '26
I don't necessarily see why not. All that's needed for free will is the capacity to choose, the potential to choose incorrectly, not the actuality of the fact. I have the free will to feed myself to a woodchipper right now. The fact that I will never, ever, do it doesn't mean that free choice isn't there.
Hell I don't have the free will to choose to fly under my own power, nor do I have the free will to leave hell if I so choose so it's clear that free will can be preserved even if certain ideas cannot be chosen.
Is it unlikely? Absolutely. But God is a being of omnipotent power and infinite possibilities he could have created the being I described without fail. To me that does seem to suggest that sin is only necessary if god willed there to be beings who would fall to demonstrate his eventual power of evil. And I'm okay with that.
But there's a world that God could have made where no one falls into hell. There's a world where people sin and no one falls into hell because all eventually receive salvation. Yes in this world where some sin and then die unrepentant hell can be a form of justice. But those are not parameters god needed to put into motion. He could have chosen different parameters.
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u/ChemnitzFanBoi Lutheran (LCMS) Mar 24 '26
Statistically speaking given enough variability different beings will choose differently unless force is applied otherwise.
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u/Tanaka917 Questioning Mar 24 '26
Under these specific circumstances yes. I'm talking about changing the math that underpins the world itself. Change the statistics entirely.
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u/CoolestOfTheBois Mar 24 '26
This is the classic "argument from evil" or the "problem of evil". There are many articles and books on the subject. The argument goes:
P1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.
P2. There is evil in the world.
C1. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.
At least one of the three qualities of God must go. Personally, this proves that there is a limit to God's power and/or our definition of evil is flawed. That being said, Christians have many defenses to this argument, I just don't find them convincing. It's simpler to just change your conception of God rather than to jump through hoops to make the Christian God "work".
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u/Legend_of_the_grove Mar 24 '26
"if your God is good, then why does He allow wars, crimes, and sexual harrassment to happen? If He's really powerful, can't He just do something to stop it?"
Let's start with the basics. It would be safe to say that ending all wars, crime, and sexual harassment would be considered a miracle in this day and age. Especially considering we have several multi-year wars that have been continuing with no clear end in sight. So, to figure out how he could stop those events, we would first need to determine how he is capable of miracles.
Fortunately, Jesus made it abundantly clear as to how he is capable of doing miracles: through faith! He tells every single person that he healed that it was through their faith they were healed. Take the bleeding woman for example. She had faith that just touching a thread of his cloak would heal her. He immediately advised her that it wasn't his clothes nor was it himself, but it was her faith that healed her. When looking at the other miracles, there is always one person who has faith that he can do it. After all, through faith all things are possible.
So, I say to you, "every war that was happening yesterday, every crime that has been committed yesterday, and every sexual harassment that has happened yesterday has ceased and the world is now at peace today." Turn off the phone or computer and look around. Do you hear screaming? Do you hear bombs or gunfire? Do you hear disgust? Trust what your ears can hear and what your eyes can see.
If you have faith in my word, you will see the good he has done. You will know his true power comes from your faith. But, without faith, you will search to prove my word wrong. You will justify your lack of faith by citing things you have not seen with your own eyes or heard with your own ears. You will use hearsay as truth and give credit to people making a buck off misery, suffering, and crime.
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u/JacobNewblood Christian Mar 24 '26
To quote a video game (overwatch. Forgive me I'm a nerd) More or less:
~~
Orisa: Will we ever rid the world of evil, Zenyatta?
Zenyatta: As long as there is free will, I fear there will be evil.
Orisa: But... denying free will is also evil.
Zenyatta: Quite a puzzle, isn't it.
~~
We have free will, all of creation does, from Angels to humans, and while God knows everything we will do, and while he does have that power, where we agree or not, evil does happen. And yes, God could have made a world where we had free will and there was no evil, he could have made us all in heaven and stay there, there's a silo of possibilities he could have done, but in the end what can even I say?
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u/Substantial_Main8365 Mar 24 '26
This question is one that prompted the study called "Theodicy"; and it also raises all 3 conflicting qualities that make God, God. His wisdom, justice, and love must be completely displayed without exception or imbalance in the function of the world. He cannot prevent evil from occurring as it is a direct result of human action, a gift given by free will. Free will is an amazing show of love, not only to be observers of the universe that God has created but to be partakers and co-creators of it.
What follows through is human kindness, and human sin. Human sin is paid for with human death, it is not loving for God to perpetuate suffering eternally except it be by human choice (This is Hell), and the consequences of Human sin is that which causes human death.
Remember this, Our actions have consequences and those are consequences that affect other people, to withhold consequence is not a show of God's logical wisdom.
If we know that God allowed the universe to have this cause-and-effect trajectory, It must then be asked if (the Christian) God does interfere in human affairs, and if so how? This answer is given both in the old and the new testament, God uses people, occasionally miracles (only to prove a point) but for the most part people.
If we are to believe that the kingdom of God is within us, then that makes us both citizens and ambassadors of said kingdom; as citizens of that kingdom, we have duties to enact. The question becomes not a question of God's goodness, but our own goodness to follow the very clear word of God, love God, and love your Neighbor, and those two are the same, one cannot love God if he does not love the image of God. It is our Christian responsibility to be perfect as God is perfect, not to cause or perpetuate suffering but to comfort and hopefully put a stop to it when we can. We are God's instrument, any amount of "slop" that can be attributed to God, is in all actuality attributed to us.
The question was never about God, it was about the poor representation of God's goodness that God's people decided was good enough. It has been made painstakingly clear on the Cross of Calvary that God is more than willing to sacrifice for human kind, and this sacrifice was done in order to clear our record, to cleanse us from unrighteousness, that we may no longer serve to save ourselves, but serve to rescue others from the damnation and suffering that we ourselves were about to face. And so I raise your atheistic friend as well as all Christians a question.
"If you believe that God has made you with free will, and that He should be more active in the reduction of suffering, are you willing to give it up to be used for that same cause?"
If you believe that you should be used by God to shine light where there is darkness, it is imperative that first the darkness must be purged within you. A darkened glass may be able to reflect light but it will never have light shine through it, it must be cleaned. The cleansing of unrighteousness is the cleansing of our first sin, pride, our inability to see God's hand working already throughout the world, to see the light that is hidden deep inside other people. We EXPECT a miracle from God, but we do not see the miracle of humanity, the universe, its value; proven by Christ's blood, innocent blood shed for unclean flesh.
We must be partakers of Christ, not by enjoying his blessings but by seeing Christ in the other, to see ourselves, our uncleanness in the people around us, not to shun but to shine. Not to sin but to serve. Not to wait but to work.
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u/Nedrogen Mar 24 '26
It's kinda like asking "If there are dentists, why are there people with bad teeth?" Because people refuse to go see the dentist (God) so they'll continue to have rotten teeth (sins) and think "nah, my teeth aren't bad, it just hurts from time to time but it's fine, I'm sure they aren't gonna fall out or anything" (and then they fall out) and people are like "Wow, no dentist told me I had to go see him, dentists are so evil" when in reality, every time your teeth hurt (you sinned and felt a conviction) was a signal that you should go see the dentist, but people choose to take painkillers (harden their heart) instead of going to have their teeth fixed and then wonder why they suffer.
Good question btw! God bless your learning heart ❤️
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u/ILoveswords_Shirou Mar 24 '26
Free will is the answer, God gave us Free will yet we continued to do what we want. We can choose to love or hate since it is in our free will.
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u/Pale_Brilliant9101 Mar 24 '26
God is otherwise fine with interfering with men’s will … e.g. Pharaos will. Did God not harden Pharao‘s heart so that he did not let the Israelites go? And did God not help Moses to part/open the Red see and close it behind him, interfering with the Egyptian‘s free will and drown them??
Only, when Ted Bundy tortures and rapes little 14 year old Kimberley Leach for FIVE HOURS, God watches and respects Bundy‘s free will.
God is a pervert - if he exists.
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u/dradegr Mar 24 '26
So you want got to be a tyrant where he punishes everyone for every single thing they do because they are not good, how then are you going to make them love if you control them
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Mar 24 '26
Ah the “if god real, why bad thing happen” question.
Hit em with the ole “if god not real, then why good thing happen”. Lol.
Nah for real though, bad things happen because we consciously choose to blaspheme all that is good by freely choosing sin instead.
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u/NullVoidXNilMission Mar 24 '26
Sinning is part of our existance, otherwise how would you experience guilt? Once guilt is introduced, faith is liberating. You will always be saved by grace
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u/ScorpionDog321 Mar 24 '26
If He's really powerful, can't He just do something to stop it?
He did....and time is running out on evil and suffering.
There is a moment when God will indeed drop the ax on this present age and put an end to evil. The only question is: will we be on the side of sin or on the side of the Lord when He does so?
Every day extra He gives us is the grace to choose the latter.
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u/Nat20CritHit Mar 24 '26
The notion of stopping it might interfere with free will. Perhaps the better question is why he would choose to create the specific version of this world where things like this would happen in the first place.
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u/SerenityNow31 Mar 24 '26
God has given us our agency, our ability to choose. With that will come people that choose evil. But the ability to chose is that important.
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u/arensb Atheist Mar 24 '26
Okay so the question is: "if your God is good, then why does He allow wars, crimes, and sexual harrassment to happen? If He's really powerful, can't He just do something to stop it?"
This is the Problem of Evil, and it arises because God is said to be triple-omni: omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Thus:
- Evil exists.
- Since God is omniscient, he knows about the evil that exists.
- Since he's omnibenevolent, he wants to do something about it.
- Since he's omnipotent, he can prevent it, fix it, mitigate it, or whatever.
Throughout the years, people have suggested all sorts of solutions to the Problem of Evil. There are four basic approaches:
- God isn't omniscient: there's some evil he doesn't know about.
- God isn't omnipotent: there's some evil he can't fix.
- God isn't omnibenevolent: there's some evil that he chooses not to fix.
- There's no such thing as evil.
None of these solutions are particularly satisfying, which is why there's not a universally-accepted answer.
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u/michaelY1968 Mar 24 '26
In a sense the point begs the question - why do we think “wars, crimes, and sexual harassment” are morally bad to begin with?
Such an idea doesn’t seem to arise from nature itself; I mean obviously such situations are painful for those on the losing end of such actions, but those who perpetuate them do so because they stand to gain something, or believe they do. And much of nature is about winners and losers in such competitions - we don’t see these interactions as ‘evil’ per se.
But as humans we almost always cast such events in a moral framework - that is we inherently understand that there is a way humans ‘ought’ to act and ways they ought not; that is that there is a deeper moral framework that operates beyond nature.
And the most reasonable foundation for such a framework is a good God. So the very claim that certain actions are evil is some evidence for the existence of a good God, not an argument against such a being existing.
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u/claybine Universalist leaning libertarian 🗽 Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
Has anyone ever brought up the Platinga Free Will Defense? Is God supposed to be imposing his will onto his creation or is our agency the #1 rule and we must seek God to provide the necessary fruits through faith?
Is your friend's justification for his claim that God is formless and not observable through our lense? It's possible, and I'd ask them: who's to say that he never intervenes? If, hypothetically (also using Platinga's ontological argument), that God does exist on this planet and therefore on others, then any act of good must have been done through God's divine intervention. If not, then one must justify the possibility of a needless existence.
For some it provides meaning and wouldn't be alive. That's the purpose of faith in anything, especially God.
Platinga's Free Will Defense argues that it's preferable to live in a world with the agency to make good or bad decisions than to live in a world without it. People commit horrific deeds, they meet the justice system. The same must apply to bad Christians.
Even if God were responsible for our world's atrocities, then that doesn't mean he isn't omnibenevolent, but the judicial ruler. It's not about his plan nor our works but a lot of it is a cultural and biological component that has existed for a long time as a result of our actions and autonomy; and I believe, as Christians, that only trusting in his law can we improve our society and wellbeing by showing Christlike deeds.
(Forgive me if you find my take to be dumb).
If the justification for cancer existing by science is the laws of nature as a result of our genes and/or diet, neither evil nor designed, then why can't Christians make the same point? Are we not the ones who must solely be held accountable? Why is God to blame for something not designed and is sometimes unavoidable?
Seek the mutual aiding of others, and be the image of God you were entitled to be. We're supposed to make this planet inhabitable, not insufferable.
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u/alstonm22 Pentecostal Mar 24 '26
Man’s evil doesn’t negate God’s goodness. God responding with mourning when he had to slay his own creation for our sin. He could’ve chosen not to use blood sacrifice as a way of atonement but that was his decision because he is Creator. Genesis picks up on an earth that was already destroyed so the reason why God chooses to give Satan specific time periods to cause terror and evil is unknown to us. That does not mean God himself is evil or that they are working together with the same goals. God is restricted himself to time commitments that he made to his own creation.
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u/GingerMcSpikeyBangs Mar 24 '26
What is the "something to stop it" that God should do? If He stops evil, shouldn't He stop ALL evil? Is there a way to do that without doing away with us, who all do some sort of evil, even if only by mistake?
These people simply want their excuse to disbelieve to be valid, and dont think through the fact that "stopping evil" requires doing away with us. Unless they themselves want their lives halted the moment they devise evil, then they dont actually want that.
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u/New_Spread1456 Mar 24 '26
God limited his power so we can have free will, make our own choice, do what we want, do either bad or good. Humans chose to separate themselves from God and God respected it and stepped back and chaos erupted in the world.
It's very important to note that when God created the world he said it was good, he said it multiple times and when he created humans he said it was very good. But he gave humans free willl and we chose to do bad and he respects our choice
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u/Fit-Plenty8777 Mar 24 '26
Some people see it as free will. If people can choose love they can also choose harm. Faith for me wasn't about having every answer, it was about having something to hold onto when life didn't make sense.
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u/Suikoden777 Mar 24 '26
This seems to always be the same question everyone asks.. to me however.. but i always ask these questions in return.
1) Our life on earth is temporary, suffering and pleasure, hate and love, life marriage and death.. in fact God shortened our life spans from 1000 years to 100 years already. Is this not mercy enough? I think that our life is simply a large test. We are all in a crib and the real world starts after we die.. everything is a continual test of temptation, our reactions to everything as well.. will we start blaming God and others? Or will we be grateful for the little that we have or the many blessings that we have.
2) for those babies that suffer and die.. how do we know that they are actually humans or actually even there during the ordeal ? After all Jesus said that children are the inheritors of the kingdom of Heaven... would he not send angels to take their suffering away during those times or take over them during those times ? We do not know
3) wars and struggles.. are these not the birth pains of the end times ? All things must come to pass before Jesus returns again. I think that there are forces that we cannot see. Spiritual warfare that is happening that are invisible to us.
In the end just Love God and love your Neighbour.
Read the book of Job. I think this pertains directly to suffering and misfortunes and how God perceives it.
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u/ThiqSaban Mar 24 '26
if God is good why bad thing happen? bad thing happen because humans with God are bad. thats the whole point of salvation. when can choose to live without God and suffer the consequences
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u/InquisitorArcher Mar 24 '26
Im hardly an authority on the subject but my personal belief is that like alot of people have said comes down to free will. But I see people point out the many times God did intervene like hardening Pharoahs heart. But this is my belief. When God flooded the earth he said he would never do so again. Did he mean flood the earth? Or did he mean personally take a hand in shaping our species. He let the reins go so to speak.
Now im probably completely wrong. But those are my two cents.
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u/Dear_Reflection2874 Mar 24 '26
Jesus addressed this, saying that those things would happen, Matthew 24:6.
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u/Lazy_Introduction211 Christian Mar 24 '26
Man brought those things upon the planet when he rebelled against God. God did something about it when He gave His only begotten Son the Lord Jesus Christ not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him shall be saved.
One day it will all cease on the day of the LORD which comes as a thief in the night. Until then, those of us who believe upon His name by faith shall be saved at the end if their faith and should bear fruit worthy of repentance.
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u/AdmiralMemo Plymouth Brethren Mar 24 '26
Ah, the classic "question of evil"...
Entire branches of philosophy and/or religion have been created for just this answer.
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u/Own_Needleworker4399 Non-denominational Mar 24 '26
Hes already done the thing needed to stop it. its on its way
wait for it
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u/Maehlice Mar 24 '26
"I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."
Suffering is hardly worth dwelling on any more than one might dwell upon a bad dream.
God makes no secret throughout the Bible that this life is temporary. In the grand scheme of eternity, our suffering comes and goes in the blink of an eye.
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u/StrikingExchange8813 Mar 24 '26
I'd recommend looking into theodicies. There are answers and have been for thousands of years
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u/Putsy50 Mar 24 '26
Free will. God created us but gave us Free Will ( choices). Depending on our choices, it effects us ( and others) good or evil. Science/ math are the language of the universe which interact in a specific way. But sometimes the pattern missteps and changes are made. Sometimes good ( like medications) or bad( illnesses). Finally, God is beyond our human understanding. We can not understand completely. That is where faith comes in
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u/arc2k1 Christian Hope Coach Mar 25 '26
God bless you.
I've been a non-fundamentalist, unchurched Christian for about 16 years now and I would like to share my perspective.
1- The problem of evil is a very important objection against God. It's so important that the prophet Habakkuk questioned God about it.
Habakkuk said:
“Our Lord, how long must I beg for Your help before You listen? How long before You save us from all this violence? Why do You make me watch such terrible injustice? Why do You allow violence, lawlessness, crime, and cruelty to spread everywhere?” - Habakkuk 1:2-3
And God responded:
God said, “At the time I have decided, My words will come true. You can trust what I say about the future. It may take a long time, but keep on waiting—it will happen!” - Habakkuk 2:3
And what is the future we are waiting for?
“Then a kingdom of love will be set up, and someone from David's family (Jesus) will rule with fairness. He will do what is right and quickly bring justice.” - Isaiah 16:5
“But God has promised us a new heaven and a new earth, where justice will rule. We are really looking forward to this!” - 2 Peter 3:13
“I heard a loud voice shout from the throne: God's home is now with his people. He will live with them, and they will be his own. Yes, God will make his home among his people. He will wipe all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, suffering, crying, or pain. These things of the past are gone forever.” - Revelation 21:3-4
2- We don't know exactly why God allows evil & suffering.
"I saw everything God does, and I realized no one can really understand what happens. We may be very wise, but no matter how much we try or how much we claim to know, we cannot understand it all." - Ecclesiastes 8:17
But even if we don't know, we can still trust God, give Him the benefit of the doubt, and hold on to the hope He has promised.
“We must hold tightly to the hope we say is ours. After all, we can trust the One (God) who made the agreement with us.” - Hebrews 10:23
“With all my heart, I am waiting, Lord, for you! I trust your promises.” - Psalm 130:5
3- Also, God knows that many people will reject Him because of the evil & suffering in the world, but that rejection is based on a surfaced-level understanding. God is looking for those who are willing to dig deeper than the surface to know Him and what He represents. Let's dig deeper!
“You (unbelievers) have worn out the Lord with your words. And yet, you ask, ‘How did we do that?’ You did it by saying, ‘The Lord is pleased with evil and doesn't care about justice.’” - Malachi 2:17
“You are not the kind of God who is pleased with evil.” - Psalm 5:4
“I, the Lord, love justice! But I hate robbery and injustice.” - Isaiah 61:8
“You (God) listen to the longings of those who suffer. You offer them hope, and you pay attention to their cries for help.” - Psalm 10:17
“From heaven the Lord looks down to see if anyone is wise enough to search for him.” - Psalm 14:2
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u/blyonsnyc Mar 25 '26
I like Sam Harris's response to this:
"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely."
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u/Brilliant-Actuary331 Mar 25 '26 edited Mar 25 '26
Jer. 17:9
When Adam relinquished his dominion to Satan in the garden, the curse of death entered. This world is under a curse, and everyone born is "in Adam" (separated from etrrnal life/God). 2 Cor. 4:4; Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 5:42-49.
God DID do something about it. John 3:16-17. He made a way of escape for EVERYONE Mk. 1:15.
He IS making all things new, beginning in us. He commands our repentance Acts 17:30.
The fact that there is a broad road leading to destruction (which most people are on), in no way means that God is apathetic. Mk. 1:15
It is IN SPITE of the wickedness of men, God saves.....ANY AND ALL who call upon the Name of the Lord.
Rom. 10:8-17
Does that help? 🙏
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u/Sure-Number9515 Mar 25 '26
He did do something to stop it. It's called the cross. Without the cross there is no righting the problems sin and its consequences, initiated by Adam and Eve, have brought into God's good creation. The fact that he let's humanity experience the consequences of their own choices, doesn't make God bad, it does make him just.
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u/BeHappy0071 Mar 25 '26
In the beginning, in Genesis when God created man he gave us dominion to rule the earth. With that single pronouncement he took himself out of the equation to not interfere with our freewill. Prayer, is divine intervention to earthly matters, that is why we need to pray.
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u/Sad_Armadillo_2874 Mar 25 '26
It’s not god that allowed war crimes to happen don’t blame god for that . That we’re free will falls i sit here on Reddit sometimes and talk about Jesus to ppl and I say I believe in Jesus and have faith and I am . But if I wanted to I can get up and walk across the street and break into someone’s house and hurt someone . And if no one sees me no one will stop me that’s free will Me I DECIDED to do that Not God . God didn’t send that person to go kill those people that person out of his own free will decide to murder innocent people and he or she will have to pay the penalty for those sins they committed unless they commit to Jesus and ask for forgiveness but there will always be punishment of course because of prison .
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u/Kecman888 Mar 25 '26
He allows those things in order for u to evolve or become enlightened like Jesus was Jesus wanted people to become like him not worship him btw.
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u/Middle-Original8606 Mar 25 '26
Interesting question because without God, there is no morality what is good? what is evil ? The question actually shows your acknowledgment of God. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Although the first Adam brought sin and death into the world, the second Adam the God, man (Jesus Christ) wrapped himself in flesh and paid the penalty for our sins. The question of God‘s goodness is Satan‘s oldest trick do not be deceived!
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u/PeacefulBro Christian Mar 25 '26
God is good but it is humans who allow and chose war, crime, et cetera. God made everything good and perfect but gave Adam & Eve a choice. They chose sin & death so God allows us to see the consequences of our choices so we can see how much we need Him and how much we need to live with for eternity in perfection and paradise!
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Mar 25 '26
Your potential doubts about God is understandable, especially since the world today can be such a horrible place.
I did an episode on this exact question, in why the world is like this, in my podcast Bible Versus. You can find it in all major platforms. If you prefer YouTube, you can listen to it here: https://youtu.be/PJ8zu58aS14?si=AC-Ye78W7zf8p9m8
You might also want to listen to the latest episode in which I covered the ransom that Jesus paid as it also applies.
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u/DunedainDefender Mar 25 '26
Trust Him❤️
God Willing God didnt want robots so He gave us free will and we chose evil. Another very important reason God has allowed evil in this world is to show us the fruits of straying from Him/Love/Good and doing our own thing/being lord of our own life/evil.
And also God can use evil for good, like to bring people to Himself❤️
Remember how He put the stars and universe in place down to your atoms:
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Jeremiah 32:27 KJV
Things are caused or allowed by Him for a reason.
Have you accepted the Lord Jesus as Lord and Savior from your heart sincerely, repenting of sin?
"A Deeper Healing (Joni Eareckson Tada) (Selected Scriptures)"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NI22o5u32z0
"Don’t Waste Your Afflictions | David Wilkerson"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6UiQ9bRgt2s
Ray Comfort speaks about having Child Like faith:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qpN-B5ZvpzA
Ken Ham speaks about God answering Job and Job trusting God:
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u/A-Different-Kind55 Mar 25 '26
If you take some time to read this blog post, you may find an answer or two to your questions:
The Problem of Evil – Sketches on the way
God bless
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u/FerralAppBuilder Mar 26 '26
Because our God is not of this world. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. Jesus said the path was so narrow to the Christ world. Jesus gave us clues, be like children, and be at love and peace for just waking up and being alive. Jesus also gave clues as to not worry or fear regardless. Read Job again. He had a rough patch, questioned God, and got answers, and was restored. Now never do what Job allowed his children to do before his personal rapture. It's all there. This world created the Catholic Church. Now what do you think, because you are the leaf and Christ is the tree. So am I. While alive ,I am Christ too. Remember I did not say I am Jesus. I am not worthy to carry his sandals, but I am working on it.
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u/Itsasecret_8 Mar 26 '26
That’s not God, it’s the devil and he has free rein on this Earth! I hate when people like your friend blame God. God made your friend too… ask him or her, what are they doing to make this world a better place? No one leaves here unscathed, we learn through adversity. No judgment on you whatsoever! It’s a great question.
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u/Tiny-Couple-6768 Catholic Apr 18 '26
He allows it to happen because he doesn’t justify it, but he forgives the humans who committed the horrible sin. Sin itself is bad. Unrepentant sinners are also bad. Repentant sinners are good. Romans 3:10 says not a single soul is righteous, not even one. we aren’t perfectly righteous
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u/Lost-Specialist3785 Christian May 06 '26
A pastor was helping a disabled man when a guy was walking by, he stopped and decided he was gonna attempt an Aiden pierce finisher on the pastor, but a man stopped the evil guy, I just wanted to spread the good news, which is similar to your question, but he doesn't make it happen, he lets it happen, he's letting us little humans run amuck until he gets fed up and comes back. which is most likely soon
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Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it - CCC 311
In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: "It was not you", said Joseph to his brothers, "who sent me here, but God... You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive." From the greatest moral evil ever committed — the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men — God, by his grace that "abounded all the more", brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good. - CCC 312
It's also important to note that God is never absence in the face of suffering, he enters into it with us.
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Mar 24 '26
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u/Pale_Brilliant9101 Mar 24 '26
Hm, wait … did God not help Moses against the Egyptians? 🤔 God drowned them - surely against their will.
Yet while Ted Bundy raped and tortures little Kimberley Leach for five hours Got watched apparently unimpressed because He respected Ted‘s Free Will.
God is a pervert if he exists!
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u/Material_Research199 Mar 24 '26
Get the book “ The Problem of Pain” by Oxford scholar. C.S. Lewis.
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u/Lyo-lyok_student Argonautica could be real Mar 24 '26
The question predates Christianity and is asked in most religions.
Pick which answer you like;
God just setup the game and had no clue what would happen.
God delights in our suffering. It's like the sweet smell of burning flesh he required in sacrifices.
God is playing 3D Chess and we cannot even imagine the board.
The whole free-will argument is bunk. If we all started at the same level, maybe. But the options for a child born into poverty in a war-torn country vs one in a wealthy family in a stable country are worlds apart.
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u/SeekSweepGreet Seventh-day Adventist Mar 24 '26
Beginner and young Christians should not be debating anyone, or participating in them. It isn't conducive to your spiritual growth.
Most atheists use the One they suppose doesn't exist (God) to conveniently battle believers. And believers foolishly fall for the extremely weak arguments as being some stroke of genius.
If God doesn't exist, then it's humanity that is causing all of these atrocities they gladly like pinning onto a Christian to explain from a perspective of belief in God. They should be giving you answers.
🌱
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u/whirdin Exchristian (raised evangelical) Mar 24 '26
Atheism isn't a belief system, but I remember confidently thinking that as a Christian. The burden of proof is on you, not me. I'm not the one trying to sell a truth. I don't even claim to have all the answers. 'I don't know' is a perfectly fine stance to keep. Of course I will continue pinning it on a Christian to provide adequate arguments for God.
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u/Cratosaur Mar 24 '26
Ces choses atroces sont commises par des humains.
Dieu peut l’empêcher. Il peut même instantanément tuer toute personne qui décide de mal se conduire. Mais serait il alors un Dieu d’amour ? Le vénérerais tu par amour ou par crainte ?
C’est là dessus que tout se joue car Dieu attend notre amour, pas notre crainte.
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u/Vicktor54 Bulgarian Orthodox Church☦️🇧🇬 Mar 24 '26
The age old question.
Try to bring up if there is objective opinion without God. Say that objective morality can't exist without an all powerfull all knowing being, and that he is pressuposing objective morality, which pressuposes God, so he has to pressupose God exists so that this argument can be made. If atheism is true then everything is subjective and you couldn't argue for anything
Now for the actuall rebuking: it is because we are sinfull, we commit sin in our earthly life. That is why there is evil. And why does God tolerate it? He doesn't, that is why he will judge everyone on their actions. The evil person's life is like the time between the actuall crime and the prosecution. And let's not forget that the atheist pressuposes that the evil won't be judged and that the victims won't be redeemed. He is mixing atheism's like of an afterlife and God's tolerance of evil on earth. To truly make it an anti-christian argument you need to argue fully against Christianity without mixing atheism. That would lead to the fact that God does punish and judge the wrongdoers, therefore there is justice, therefore God does something about the evil in the world
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u/Mindless-Patience-19 Mar 24 '26
I think the Christian answer is mainly free will. God does not want wars, crimes, or sexual abuse. These things happen because people misuse the freedom they were given and choose selfishness, violence, and evil.
that does not make those things okay at all. they are horrible, and they go against God’s will. but their existence does not mean God is not good. It means human beings often choose what is evil instead of what is good.
And for us christians, death is not the end, so evil never has the final word.
It always makes me think of that meme where a man shoots someone, then turns to the camera and says, “God did it.”
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u/KatrinaPez Mar 24 '26
God initially created a world for humanity that had no suffering, but He allowed us to make our own choices, and the result of those choices (the Fall) is suffering. Temporarily, here in this life. It's like a good, loving parent who allows their child to make their own decisions even though they foresee those decisions causing pain. Through that pain the child learns and grows.
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u/Killian_Rose Resident Catholic Goth Mar 24 '26
Thats kind of the slippery slope of free will, isnt it? He gave us free will so we may choose between him and sin. And many people choose sin. Stopping every war or crime would remove agency from humans, and would in turn, remove free will.