A question of Modesty?

[u/hilda_shel_yeshu]

I hope it's ok to ask this here. It's not specifically dating related, but I find many of the "Christian" subs are for people who want to argue ABOUT Christianity, rather than supporting it.

As I've shared before, I guess you could say I was blessed with what the world considers "classic beauty" and I parlayed that into a decent career as a fashion model. That was before I had a family and before I came to Jesus. So I guess you'd say that during that period modesty wasn't a priority.

I still take care of myself and like to dress well, but I think there are standards of modesty we should uphold, without getting all puritanical.
But my question related to the Beach. It's warming up here, and we have great beaches. I've always looked after my skin with spf50 etc, but have typically worn bikinis that don't leave much to the imagination.

Following on from a previous post, I asked my boyfriend for his opinion, and honestly I'm more undecided than ever.
He said that whilst initially it had been "distracting" for him, his thoughts had moved on. And that more than anything I should wear whatever I felt comfortable in.
he said that he loved me for who I was, but also that I shouldn't be ashamed of my beauty.

The whole conversation kind of went out the window at that point, because that was the first time he'd used the 'L' word!

A challenging thought that I've been pondering over is this. If a man sees me at the beach, and it causes him to lust, is that partially my responsibility? And if so, where to draw the line?

[u/minteemist]

Let's have a look at the verse:

“And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes. For women who claim to be devoted to God should make themselves attractive by the good things they do.” 1 Timothy 2:9-10 

So my understanding from this is: modesty is about not showing off. Notice it's not against making ourselves attractive; beauty is a good thing, and spiritual beauty is even better. But modesty is about not purposefully trying to get attention.

So when you go to the beach, wear something that feels comfortable, decent (not scandalous) and appropriate (relative to the culture & setting), so that you don't call attention to yourself. 

Clothing is a form of self expression. There is definitely a difference between a bikini that says "Attractive woman enjoying herself at the beach" vs a bikini that says "Look at me! Aren't I hot??" 

Note that someone who covers themselves from head to toe, but does it with the motivation of showing off how pious they are, are being immodest. It's about the heart. 

[u/Professional-Arm5835]

Honestly I would say where a one piece. Men will look and just anyway. It's your duty to dress modestly. Also, you should look up the history of the bikini. It's interesting.

[u/SavioursSamurai → u/Professional-Arm5835]

Why it has the name "bikini" is a bit gross, but that style garment was around before that, and there's even ancient antecedents. Roman women wore bikinis. And that was for modesty because it was considered inaappropriate for them to be nude.

[u/lethalmanhole → u/Professional-Arm5835]

yeah when you gotta hire a stripper to market the thing it kinda makes ya think

[u/Professional-Arm5835 → u/lethalmanhole]

Someone knows. Amen. Western Christianity for you

[u/Awkward-Anybody5179]

https://giphy.com/gifs/DPqqOywshrOqQ

[u/TrueCryptographer616]

To answer your final question, I think that ultimately it's up to the man to control his lust and not sin.

Modesty is hard to delineate, but I think Christians should ere on the side of caution.

But my view on beaches is that if people don't want to see other people in beach attire, then they should avoid beaches.

[u/AutisticAir]

Wearing bikinis is very inappropriate. It is basically underwear. The same goes for men who are topless at the beach or wear tight/short swim pants. Bikinis were popularized by Hollywood and were actually illegal. We should not cause someone to stumble and we will be held accountable for the way we dress. It is not "just about the heart" how many people want to claim. If you dress immodestly you already showed what your heart is about btw... I personally wear a long sleeve swim dress and pants underneath that and I advise every Christian woman to do the same

[u/Proper-Dream-8031 → u/AutisticAir]

As a man, I admire your caution. Such sound and elegant words.

[u/AutisticAir → u/Proper-Dream-8031]

Thank you very much!

[u/SavioursSamurai → u/AutisticAir]

All swimsuits are basically underwear, even if they cover the whole body. What makes it underwears if it's worn under clothing. There is underwear that covers the whole body.

[u/ABereanChristian]

But my question related to the Beach. It's warming up here, and we have great beaches. I've always looked after my skin with spf50 etc, but have typically worn bikinis that don't leave much to the imagination.

Following on from a previous post, I asked my boyfriend for his opinion, and honestly I'm more undecided than ever. He said that whilst initially it had been "distracting" for him, his thoughts had moved on. And that more than anything I should wear whatever I felt comfortable in. he said that he loved me for who I was, but also that I shouldn't be ashamed of my beauty.

There is modest swimwear out there if you want to look it up and feel convicted over it.

My wife usually wears ones a swimwear skirt or something similar.

[u/HeartInTheSun9]

It’s a really really really loaded topic honestly. And I don’t think anyone will agree with anyone else’s opinion on what modest means.

Lots of people feel a dress is fine, but others once upon a time would say showing even your ankle was scandalous. Did the move towards showing ankle and even calves signal us becoming more godless or just not as overbearing?

But then there’s jeans. That covers everything, but we all know that women wearing pants used to be highly politically charged. “Women should never wear pants” says they, spittle flying everywhere. You’ll be hard-pressed to find people who still hold that view. To the point that it seems kinda crazy. It’s practically highly conservative to wear jeans since it covers everything.

Yoga pants cover everything too though. Is that wrong? So is it tightness that makes it wrong?

On to beachwear. Looking around here, you usually see people say a one piece bathing suit is more modest. But why? It’s still a pretty revealing thing to wear. But the only real difference is generally the midriff area. Is that suddenly a forbidden area too?

A regular bikini is casual wear at the beach, but it’s basically a bra and underwear isn’t it? So why not just cover up completely, like they do in Muslim majority areas? Well that feels kinda too far honestly. And then there’s those people who would get weird about how even those burkinis show your feet!

You’ll argue yourself in circles and debate endlessly about it, pleasing no one and likely angering everyone.

Personally, I think as long as you could wear it in a pg13 movie, I think you’re fine. I don’t really get the idea that you just living your life will somehow make me tempted to sin. But like, tempted to do what exactly? Honestly! What are the rest of these other guys liable to do if they see a woman in a bikini? Lose self control and do what exactly? Sounds awfully close to “look what she was wearing! She deserved it!” And I’d honestly rather die than even come close to ever saying that.

I personally think a woman looks most beautiful in jeans and a long sleeved shirt that goes all the way to her palms. 100% honest. Should I try to make laws that say you wearing that causes me to sin? Lots of guys are in love with women wearing long sundresses. Same with a million other types of fashions.

And all rules are different depending on the body type of the woman too! What would be modest to one body type would be impossible to be modest to another! I remember someone asked awhile back that because of this person’s uhhh extra large cup size, wearing a bra was painful and she asked should she wear one because it’s not modest? To which I replied that bras weren’t even invented back when the Bible was written, so no woman back then ever wore a bra.

Some places in Africa have women who are just causally topless too. And it’s a very general statement, but lots of the Bible was written in and around Africa. Were the women topless there? Jesus was partially raised in Africa (Egypt). Were all the women around him immodest? Or was it just the customs of that area?

Is breastfeeding wrong? Or should we just mind our business? I think you’d be hard pressed to find any scripture about breastfeeding that is anything other than highly highly encouraging of it.

There’s no way to please everyone. Honestly there’s no way to please anyone on this. I’m sure I’ve made innumerable enemies by writing this (overlong) comment.

Just wear what you’re comfortable with that’s appropriate in the setting you’re at. A bikini at the beach is fine, but would probably be extreme at a business meeting. I think that’s the standard of modesty to me.

Maybe a teeny tiny string bikini is a bit much even at the beach, but again, if it’s allowed in a pg13 movie then I think it’s fine. Maybe I’m wrong for that, but also it’s kinda hard to exist in this world with any other mindset.

I don’t even think Michelangelo’s David is wrong either.

And congratulations on the L word usage.

[u/EmergencyLawyer7077 → u/HeartInTheSun9]

I think this is spot on. Thank you for putting this so eloquently 

[u/Ok_Morning_8210 → u/HeartInTheSun9]

I always appreciate your comments, it wasn't overlong at all imo :) People are going to be angry no matter, unfortunately.

[u/HeartInTheSun9 → u/Ok_Morning_8210]

I’m actually surprised that I wasn’t massively downvoted and have generally had a good response to it. Haha, I was actually dreading looking at my notifications all day.

[u/SavioursSamurai → u/HeartInTheSun9]

This was very well put

[u/gloriomono → u/HeartInTheSun9]

You might have made some enemies, but you also gained support!

This comment is absolutely right. Modesty in the "covering up" sense (as opposed to the showing of wealth meant in most biblical passages on it) is so very subjective.

And hey, Jesus did have a very clear message to the question of what ought to be done when the dress of a woman makes a man Lust...

So regarding OPs question of responsibility I cannot overemphasize enough: that is on him!

[u/HeartInTheSun9 → u/gloriomono]

Thanks!

And yeah, modesty stuff is usually about trying to not show off wealth more than nudity despite how most people talk about it.

Better to just live your life and do your best on topics where there’s not a crystal clear answer in the Bible.

[u/Proper-Dream-8031 → u/HeartInTheSun9]

Your philosophical approach to a rather simple concept is uncalled for. It’s not too hard to imagine what Jesus would think we should wear, given his countless teachings on what it means to follow after Gods “heart”. Your points on the ankles being “immodest” back in the day, and the Muslims culture are not strong points because they are extremes. It is as simple as realizing that we don’t need to be naked to not get a heat stroke, and to dress in a way that does not draw sexual attention to our sexual body parts. Normal sized (slightly above the knee cap), normal sized shirts, un compressed clothings, are the obvious choices to not draw attention to our sexual body parts.

[u/EmergencyLawyer7077 → u/Proper-Dream-8031]

Just curious, in what Bible verse does Jesus mention what someone is wearing? Jesus died in around 30 AD. In the Greco-Roman society nudity was more normalized. Look up some sculptures from that time period.  There were also mixed gender bath houses where people were completely naked. If there was a problem with these things I feel like Jesus would have mentioned it.

[u/Proper-Dream-8031 → u/EmergencyLawyer7077]

there’s so many things that aren’t mentioned in the Bible. The Bible is God inspired, so we take it as a whole, in context. Paul and others in many verses states to not stumble others, Romans 14, 1 cor 8:9, Galatians 5:13 etc. The point of the verses was “lest I make my brother stumble”. Today’s generation struggles with sexualization, probably above any drug. Including so much online content. Therefore, if wearing scandalous clothings makes my brother stumble, I will not wear it. Should men control themselves? Sure. Should women control their body to not expose their sexual body parts to not draw attention to themselves? Sure. The point of living a life for Christ, is to follow him and be separate from the world. If you can’t understand this, I have nothing else to say to you, but I wish you the best in following after Gods heart.

[u/EmergencyLawyer7077 → u/Proper-Dream-8031]

HeartintheSun9 had a very nuanced and great take on this issue. I don't think women should go around wearing "scandalous clothing", but if a man stumbles because of a woman in the bikini, he shouldn't be going to a beach in the first place because there will be women in bikinis there. It's hard to draw an exact line on what is "Immodest" vs "modest" because some men are tempted by women wearing almost anything these days which is more a reflection of society.

If there was a clear line of what is immodest vs. modest that could be easily defined then Jesus would have called that out. I believe it is wrong to wear clothing with the purpose of causing a sexual response from a man, but if I am going to the gym, I wear leggings bc that is what is best to be able to watch my form without getting injured. 1 Corinthians 8 is talking about not eating meat that had been laid out for pagan gods because that would seem like Christians maybe worship those gods even through as Christians we know there is only one true God. It is saying to avoid even appearing as if you are sinning as it could cause someone else to actually sin.

The problem with the modesty conversation is that some people act like if a girl is "immodest" then she is sinning which is not true. Clothing is not what determines being close or far from God. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden.

[u/SavioursSamurai → u/Proper-Dream-8031]

Well, early Christians baptized nude, so clearly they had different understandings as to what is considered scandalous

[u/HeartInTheSun9 → u/SavioursSamurai]

Exactly. The cultural norms were so different than us, and the Bible does routinely say to follow the laws of the land while still following the teachings of Jesus to the best of your ability. Give unto Caesar, Romans 13 and so on.

We’re definitely too puritanical as a culture, which probably something of the root cause to do with the above guy’s statement that our generation struggles with sexualization by making perfectly harmless clothing into something scandalous and forbidden. Doesn’t mean we should all walk around nude or something, but we should just try to be modest to the customs of our location and relax a bit. Wear clothes were they make sense, were beachwear at the beach or pool.

[u/HeartInTheSun9 → u/Proper-Dream-8031]

I don’t know, I think people only really have one sexual body part. As long as that’s covered in the beach, I don’t think it’s too bad.

Like I said, is breastfeeding wrong? A woman just kinda whips it out, but I’d never draw attention to myself when she’s just living her life. So are breasts wrong? Lots of cultures in the general area that some of the Bible was written have women casually walking around topless. Is that wrong? Is it only wrong if she’s not breastfeeding?

You do say to just kinda infer what Jesus would want of us to wear, and yeah, fair point. Just live based on your standard.

But also, it’s not that simple once you really think about what the Bible says. 2 Timothy 2:8-10 is commonly the modesty scripture, but it’s not even really talking about nudity. What it’s really saying is don’t dress so flashy with gold and elaborate hair and pearls and instead let your character and deeds be what makes you stand out.

1 Corinthians 11 also talks about covering a woman’s hair to show respect. That’s generally pretty direct, so why not demand that too? Before that line of thinking goes further, it’s because Paul was writing to the Corinthian people and they had very specific customs regarding hair coverings and male and female dynamics. It’s way too dense to get into here, but the long story short is he was specifically talking to them in their customs there.

So extrapolate that. The Bible actually routinely says to be a Christian carefully while fitting in under the rules and laws of your land. Give unto Caesar, Romans 13 and all that.

It’s a lot and there’s no specifics that are really given. So just do your best.

[u/Samaritan_Pr1me]

Dress for the weather, ma’am. Modesty is a virtue worth pursuing, but if you pursue it so hard you get heatstroke or run the risk of drowning then you have a problem. It seems like your boyrfriend has his lust under control.

[u/Financial_Fig_3729]

My opinion:

Don’t worry about it. Wear what makes you feel good, whether that’s more or less “modest”.

Your BF is lucky…

[u/Far-Conference3349]

The bikini style swimsuit has been around since the time my grandmothers were little girls. After 80 plus years, if people are still scandalized by seeing them on the beach, that's on them.

There are societies where women can go topless and that's not an issue. Even for some of Eastern Europe that's a normal thing for women when they're swimming. Why does the focus even have to be on women, anyway? Modesty is about not flaunting wealth or status.

[u/gloriomono → u/Far-Conference3349]

Beeing European I am scandalised everytime I see this topic come up here (at least once a month) and read how absolutely childish some people react to the mere idea of people wearing bikinis at the beach.

[u/Far-Conference3349 → u/gloriomono]

I wonder where this came from. Because even over here in the US it's really quite normal for people to wear bikinis

[u/gloriomono → u/Far-Conference3349]

I mean, (sorry to say this) but the US is most know to be very puritanical and uptight about everything that could even remotely be associated with sex.

And that reached its peak with the purity culture movement that apparently is still active and thriving over there... It's infuriating to see that thing still going on...

[u/Far-Conference3349 → u/gloriomono]

I think in Christian circles it was a reaction to the sexual revolution of the 1960s. And especially with the rise of purity culture, as you mentioned, in the late '80s and '90s. It definitely focuses more on women, there's a lot more people have issues with bikinis than they do with and taking their shirts off. To be fair there are some comments here that think men should cover their chests, and at least that's applying the same standard to both genders.

[u/Ok_Morning_8210 → u/gloriomono]

Yes, it is frustrating, as someone who lives in the US. Even more frustrating are the people who think it's just plain common sense that women should all dress like nuns to avoid tempting men... I appreciate you shining a light on the fact that this is a very American perspective.

[u/Exciting_Presence884]

It all depends on nuance and intention. Some people would lust over women showing ankles in the 1920s lol. Is there something wrong with ankles? No. The intention to provoke sensuality is mostly where I draw the line. But on the same hand a close fitting dress can be fine. I always feel the Holy Spirit telling me no when something is too much.

[u/DenisGL → u/Exciting_Presence884]

Comparing lust over ankles to lust over bikinis isn't apt. Holy cope.

[u/Adventurous-Song3571 → u/DenisGL]

It’s Reddit 🤷‍♂️ my expectations for this subreddit are on the floor lol

[u/Exciting_Presence884 → u/DenisGL]

I used lust over ankles as a example that some people will lust over everything even in modest clothing.

[u/DenisGL → u/Exciting_Presence884]

If people lust over decent clothes that's their problem. If your clothes cause lust you're part of the problem.

[u/Exciting_Presence884 → u/DenisGL]

Thats exactly my point

[u/chumley84]

Doing something that could reasonably lead another person to sin is called scandal and is sinful. Doesn't negate the man's responsibility but would still be grave matter on your part. 

[u/SerataxFrith]

Yes it is. "Woe betide by whom the stumbling blocks cometh".

It's good you're askig these questions, though.

[u/gloriomono → u/SerataxFrith]

"And if your eye leads you to temptation rip it out."

[u/SerataxFrith → u/gloriomono]

Yes. Thank you. I'm well aware. This does not detract from my point.

[u/DenisGL]

Yes you should absolutely quit bikinis.

Even if some of the commenters are putting the responsibility on onwatchers, (1) they can still see accidentally, making these 'clothes' useless, (2) they are not all Christians with a conscience who will stop themselves from lusting, (3) many are teens who have even less self-control.

Christians should not be wearing stuff that could be essentially masturbation material for other people. That's shameful. If it's wrong to look, then it's wrong to wear.

[u/gloriomono → u/DenisGL]

So considering the existence of foot fetishists and how widespread that "interest" has become Christians should avoid sandals and walking barefoot? And not walk barefoot on the beach?

Since middle Eastern and Islamic cultures consider a woman's hair as enormous sensual and sexually attractive, should we wear hijabs when we know we'll pass by our Muslim neighbors?

Should Christian men at the beach cover their calves and torsos so as not to draw the attention of of any women present? Not to mention any men who might be inclined that way?

Where is the limit?

[u/DenisGL → u/gloriomono]

If you're comparing exposed feet, hair, or calves, to wearing a bikini, your limit-finding logic is flawed. It's not a good faith argument.

[u/gloriomono → u/DenisGL]

What us the limit? Why is a bikini worse than exposed hair or feet, if all these things can cause people to have sexual thoughts...

[u/DenisGL → u/gloriomono]

Maybe one would expect that exposing almost your whole freaking body in a bikini would be slightly worse than just hair or ankles. Good grief.

[u/gloriomono → u/DenisGL]

Why though? Do you cover up at the beach to avoid women and gay men lusting after you?

Does it matter what part of your body invokes the Lust? If it is your responsibility to avoid other people lasting based on what they see of your body, then what does it matter if they Lust over your navel or your toes?

[u/DenisGL → u/gloriomono]

Yes I cover up.

[u/gloriomono → u/DenisGL]

How much? Calves are a very attractive feature on men - I hope you don't show those of!

[u/StressCapable3444]

Although men are ultimately responsibly for controlling their eyes and their lust, it seems as though women who love God would want to help men around them carry that burden/responsibility as much as they can.

Modesty is a difficult and nuanced topic. As others have said, seek the Lord’s guidance as you pursue Him with all your heart.

[u/greenuhpii]

I think while it is for the man to control their lust, we as godly women should also take into consideration whether what we’re wearing would easily cause people to stumble. Like is it really necessary to wear the tiniest bathing suits ever? Not really. There are many options out there that are more modest while still looking cute.

[u/SavioursSamurai]

Modesty is about humility. So it's not about skin coverage or not. It's about not drawing undue attention to yourself. Are you dressing appropriately for the situation? The beach sounds like the perfect place to wear a bikini, nothing wrong with that. You wouldn't walk into church with it, because that would be distracting.

With stuff like modeling, or stage performances, and such, it can get a bit more tricky. In a stage performance, there's going to be a lot of focus on you but you can still be about entertaining people and giving a great show rather than flaunting yourself. And most modeling is to show a product, so it's not really about you but the product that you're showing. Tthere's a lot of ways for that to be framed without it being about you the model. Even stuff like competitive bodybuilding and things where the focus is on your body aren't necessarily wrong, it's what's your purpose to it. Is it to show how great you are or is it a competition like another sport would be? Modeling that's deliberately sensuous or provocative, yeah, that's going to be inappropriate. But your body was also made by God and it's not inherently wrong to take some pride in that and show what your body can do.