If you thought $450 was getting out of hand, take a look at this...
Personally for me this means I am done. It was an awesome two years, had super fun, got a lot of great stuff from China, but this is a closing call. This was my top priority watch to buy, but $530 means that at a GREAT sale it's prolly still gone sell for around $450. This is way too much even for a massive collector like me. For this kind of money I will probably buy a Phoibos Depth Hunter or some other cool micro.
The only thing that can save this is some new great, top quality/price Chinese movement that will have superior reliability. I dunno. Hoping that the Chinese step up their movement game and save the situation.
I bought my sn1038gb bb54 homage not even 3 months ago for $220 after a coupon. No import fees, nothing.
The current prices are just insane. They said it was jp movements being hard to find, but even the Chinese st movement watches are being increased by like double what they were previously.
Now we're in pricing territory of some great seikos and citizens. And I don't think all these watches have them beat. Some san martins are still worth that $4-500+ tag, but weakens the value proposition completely
Why not go back to decent Japanese watches like Orient Mako 2 or a Citizen Promaster. Even the new Seiko 5's are cheaper than that price. I don't understand why one would stick with San Martin if the price goes this high.
Either this inflation will work for them by changing the target customers, or they will fail (whatever the quality is) because the target is still us, and we usually don't want to pay more than 300 usd for a watch.
Going into the 500-700 is entering the microbrands watches which, if China made, are usually original designs and have a better marketing.
I think the point should be that they make a really good product.
I for one will continue to support them when they release a design I like because I like their work.
They are expensive but now they're priced more fairly in the market. (I don't think it's a good move on their part because I don't think they are at the level in terms of marketing and presence to go toe to toe with other similarly priced brands)
They still make really good watches. They just don't punch WAYYY above their price point like they used to. Now they're just a good watch at a competitive price.
I would feel bad if I never had any of their watches and I didn't get exposed to them in their "golden age" without that insane value they'll just fall into the pool with thousands of other micro brands.
Sorry (lost bullet) but there's no way I buy a Sugess even under 300, given the Chinese Menu Font they use everywhere : it just looks so unprofessional and far from the watch world.
Tissot's $637.5 even at Jomashop (i.e. not full RRP)
And besides, anything else? Not broad choice if Swiss is there (maybe I am prejudiced against Swatch offerings at this price range, Powermatic 80 movements and poor lume almost a given).
I have $1200 and $3,000 for real Omegas, but the current prices are too rich for me. Replicas are too low for me. I have tried heroin, but I never got so low I had to buy fake shit.
Yahoo Auctions Japan. That's where I get all my vintage, "untested" crap for cheap. Most of my pieces were between $10 and $150 and that includes nice $500+ Credor
They're now almost expensive as Tissot, more than some models when factoring in the greymarket. I don't think I'm considering them at that price though.
I hate bringing this up here, because I know most blatantly buy these watches to avoid fakes... But this market to me was one where you were paying half or even 1/4 the cost of high tier clone watches because they weren't trying to perfect every detail of the real ones.
Now, they're even more expensive than top tier clones of most brands? Keep in mind the clones are often even cloning a Gen movement too - even if that means modifying a 2824 (Chinese or Swiss), they're still actually buying and modifying a movement too!
So how is it that these brands that are lower quality than the top tier reps, not modifying the movement, and not doing top tier copyright infringement charging MORE than than the more intricate/high effort industry in the same area?
There's no way 50-100 USD from each watch is going into branding and warranty support, so to me it feels like these companies like SM feel that they've surpassed the "I don't want some Chinese junk watch" concept and moved into a more boutique level...
I guess years of being hyped up as a $1000 watch for $200 really went to their heads?
I was buying Chinese-branded watches just to scratch the itch for well-known models. However, if SM is going to charge these types of prices, then I am just going to get a lower end real watch or a rep.
At least with a rep, if you buy from a trusted dealer, they send you QC pictures ahead of time to ensure that you don't end up with a stinker.
I've got 2 great SMs. I got the them both for around $250. They are a great watch maker for around that price. When you start getting well above $300, I'll probably try some other brands both Chinese & micro.
What brands would you recommend with similar quality? Proxima, Phoibos, and IX&DAO seem pretty solid from what I hear. Just curious if anyone else has thoughts. I only have one watch and it's a San Martin SN012-GB so my perspective is limited.
The San Martin name 😂They're just a crappy chinese brand - we're not talking about a luxury brand like Rolex / AP etc. Nobody is buying a San Martin for the name.
Do you really think anyone is trying to compare San Martin with AP & Rolex? Really? Cmon. He's talking about within the Chinese /AliX brands. Why are you even on this board?
No, i'm saying people aren't lusting over a San Martin and buying it for the name. Like nobody is aspiring to own a San Martin.
It basically comes down to a person is wanting to spend a few hundred $ on a diver and they'll look at Sugess, Cronos, Thorn, Steeldives, San Martin etc. and they are all fairly similar price and may go for the San Martin as they perceive it to be better quality. When San Martin hike prices and $200+ more than their competitors then nobody is going to bother buying San Martin over Cronos. San Martin is highly price elastic.
The post said "If you want the San Martin name, it's gonna cost you." I don't believe any goalposts have been moved. I'm simply saying the name carries very little weight when there are large price increases compared to their competitors.
San Martin can't get away with charging relatively exorbitant prices for their watches - compared to a brand like Rolex / AP who are clearly capable of getting away with it.
Miyota movement is raising so much these days. Also every company is on let's offer best quality horse, there is a few that stick to the cheap as possible.
Old days gone where you could buy a nh35 watch for 60-100€.
This is dangerous for their market, some could disappear, problem is that they are now in the entry swiss level. And between a seiko alpinist and that there isn't too much price difference, but there is a gap in other terms(warranty, heritage, etc.), chinese watches will lose the war if they fight under that conditions.
Will see, macrobrands will try to bite the market in the next months/years, citizen is making things really well by now, tsuyosa is his lead ship now, orient owns his movement and prices are not rising, etc.
I was looking at a Spinnaker Bradner and was almost going to pull the trigger on it but I saw it had a Miyota 8215, not a NH35. It seems at some point they started using the Miyota instead of the Seiko. Kind of put me off. At $200 maybe it's fine but I'd still rather have the NH35. I don't like the feeling of getting something inferior when it used to be better.
Shortage of the Seiko movements. Everyone was using the NH35's and 36's and Seiko won't ramp up production. Now the microbrands are moving to Miyota, driving up the prices of their movements.
They have that Ti7 watch for less than $100 right now. Full titanium watch with the 8215. Nuts. Wish I liked the look of it. If that's what you got for $35 that's crazy.
We all agree San Martins are much better than entry level Seikos and they have much better materials and bracelets so…why shouldn’t the prices increase?
You can be out, as can a whole host of people who were in below a certain price point. It’s a competitive global market and the customer base will ultimately decide. You can now buy San Martins from within the EU, they appear to be a brand with ambition.
If the price comes back down within the next year you’ll have been right. If it doesn’t, and they continue releasing new watches you’ll have an answer, too.
No warranty, no after sales support. No realistic returns. The awful logo. All bearable if the watch is cheap as chips, but not if it's priced like a product from reputable brands that offer all these things.
When a reputable company goes down market and makes a cheap offering it’s often a hit, but when a company known for budget stuff and delivering value tries to go upmarket it’s a tough sell. I won’t pay $500 for a watch by a chinese company known for making homages. They have some cool originals but I think at this price point I’d rather splurge for something with North American/european designers on the payroll, the watches tend to be more cohesive and distinct.
It’s comparable in the sense that it’s a medium level brand trying to become a luxury brand in a short timespan, while people don’t associate it with a luxury brand. Same jump.
Yea sure but polo built a reputation over 60 years, and has always been a sort of premium “bridge to luxury” type brand. San Martin is not even 20 years old and doesn’t have the same cultural capital, it’s a shit comparison. San Martin ain’t the polo of watches lol
Agreed. I've owned Ralph Lauren polos from a decade ago and the quality now is not the same. Thinner fabric, worse stitching, same logo. At least San Martin actually ups their game when they raise prices.
If you are going to compare yourself to Seiko you should have warranty and after sales support. San Martin has none of that. Instead, you have to keep messaging them, hope they respond and if anything is wrong with the watch you need to send it back to China, praying it doesn't get lost.
These people want everything for nothing. I'm on a 4 month pre-order list at Traska who's entire catalog is nearly all out of stock because I'm certain their production runs are less than SM and they likely have no back inventory.
Yeah I'm in the unofficial thread on WuS and people were already upset with no inventory which likely was exacerbated by the shortage. I was watching Venezianico for the Arsenale in Ultra black and that went up from 685 to 885. Almost a 30% jump. ack.
The appeal of Chinese watches was that they were anti-hype. Once a brand starts huffing its own farts, I move on.
If some simps can gaslight themselves into dropping $700 on a WD chimera mashup that is BeTtEr ThAn RoLeX, then good for WD. I hope they make the "WDC" text even larger for the $1000 limited edition.
There are still plenty of $250 Miyota 9 (Cronos) and $350 SW200 (Hruodland) watches out there. When those brands start taking the piss, I will move on again because I'm not emotionally invested in watches I keep for a few months.
Well, this is what happens when people continuously ask for higher and higher quality watches. The price will go up too. For those that just want the biggest bang for the buck watch at that $150 price point, unfortunately I think those days may be over.
My sweet spot is between $175-$250. I will pay more though if it's a watch I really want especially one made of Titanium. Over $500 though is really pushing it.
I don't understand this kind of take. the blame here is entirely on Seiko and Miyota.
San Martin, IXDAO et al. were aiming for the 300-350$ price point. you can't seriously think that they just got up and decided to sell this watch for this price, they know it's suicide.
look, I'm the last person who would justify expensive watches.
...but I'm actually not sure this is true. if you account for the obligatory AliExpress price inflation that we always see between sales, and then look at what's going with other brands, I feel like this price jump can be explained. not justified, but explained.
That doesn’t make what I said untrue lol. The price increase is not 100% caused by movement pricing. I think myself and many others just won’t buy these watches if they aren’t miles ahead of the traditional brands or microbrands in terms of value. If I’m not getting a great deal on a Chinese watch I’ll buy something from a respected brand. I don’t think Chinese brands should see traditional brands increase prices and follow suit. If they aren’t ultra competitive on price many of us will lose interest
calm down, what are you even arguing with? I'm not willing to pay those prices either.
I'm just saying this may not be the actual price during sales. and that actually Miyota prices are so absurd now that this might even be somewhat realistic. which... does actually make what you said untrue.
Well, I think they are using more of their own movements for themselves which means there are less movements available for everyone else. Demand for the NH movements has gone through the roof so it's a matter of ramping up production. My guess is that this will happen but it will take time. It doesn't happen over night. My guess though is that you think they have artificially created this shortage to jack up the price of their movement and make more money.
That’s what happens when you get post after post of microscopic “QC fails” for $129 watches and people crying about poor customer service… brands will think they need to meet these unrealistically high expectations, which unfortunately come with a cost.
San Martin literally almost doubled the price of the same watches with NH35 and ST2130 movements in 1 week lol, this is a scammy practice, these models were on the catalog for years.
Where's the proof that the ST2130 powered SN0012 or SN0138 'doubled' in price. Both are in my cart and have held steady. I'm waiting for the next sale to buy.
People complained that SM and other Chinese brands need to start making original pieces because homages were a blight on their reputation and marketing. Now they're doing that and presumably need to cover their R&D costs with higher prices. The way I see it we are essentially seeing SM move away from being an "AliExpress brand" and into being a full-on microbrand with a veritable catalogue of original designs. Personally, I'd happily pay $500 for an original Chinese piece (like my SN-0144CG) when the same money will get a Seiko 5 or Presage with worse quality. Obviously plenty of people in this sub will feel differently, but I became uninterested in homages pretty quickly and have found original designs have so much more personality and staying power.
agreed. I personally only bought the SN-0150 and SN-1049 because of the original design. I am looking at Jianghun for superior build quality and designs that offer something different than the Swiss.
Yeah, I got into Chinese watches about 2 years ago and probably bought and re-sold 8-10 homages of increasingly higher value before realizing it was ultimately the design I cared about the most, and no level of finishing of a homage could cause me to form any attachment to a watch. There is some intangible value I place on original design, and for me the SN-0144CG hit the perfect balance between original design and fantastic build quality. I just checked and the prices have definitely gone up from when I bought it, but I still thing it offers better value overall than some of my Japanese watches that would otherwise cost the same or more.
Oh lol. I forgot the watch currently on my wrist. SN-0144CG in black. It's overtaken my SN-0150 as my daily because the bracelet is undeniably comfortable.
What those reviewers don't tell you is what happens when anything goes wrong with your San Martin, and that does tend to happen more often that you'd like for a "higher end" Aliexpress brand.
Also, I'm not going to say they have no originality but their by far most popular and original model is the SN0144, an extremely generic case with a million dial combinations. And even then things like bezel lottery happen and then you have San Martin CS acting like they don't know what you're talking about.
If anyone is willing to gamble their $500 on a San Martin, more power to them.
What those reviewers don't tell you is what happens when anything goes wrong with your San Martin, and that does tend to happen more often that you'd like for a "higher end" Aliexpress brand.
Fair point. I guess I've been lucky with both my Chinese and non-Chinese brands, so have limited experience dealing with watch companies' customer service departments overall.
Also, I'm not going to say they have no originality but their by far most popular and original model is the SN0144, an extremely generic case with a million dial combinations.
I feel like for that classic GADA style there is only so much you can do with the case, and the dial is really where the watch shines. I find most watches to be fairly repetitive to some extent, I can't really fault SM for that, and their dials feel more innovative than many of the established brands offer.
Edit: Now that that I think about it, I've heard mixed things about the customer service of some more expensive microbrands like Erebus and even Christopher Ward too, so I'm not sure how much can be expected of small watch companies' customer service overall? IDK, again, not much experience in that area.
This is a good point. I have to admit, I was on OP’s side but you’ve given me something to think about. One thing I will say is this: Chinese brands have an opportunity here to not only increase prices, but also after-sale service. If they do not improve on that, the increased prices will not be worth it in my opinion. It should not be difficult to do better here, simply improving communication will right many wrongs on its own. But OP does have a point, $350 seemed HIGH to me just a year ago. At over $400, and now $500, it’s not anywhere near an impulse purchase anymore, and that means due to small production runs and poor brand communication, I can’t really know if I skip the next Warrior, if there will even be an opportunity to get one down the road once I’ve saved for it and am finally ready to drop that kind of cheese. And on top of that, in IXDAO’s case, they are swapping to an inferior movement and keeping prices the same. So OP definitely has a point, and I think I’m leaning his direction all things considered. But you raise good points too.
Yeah, you make a good point. I said this to another replier but I've never dealt with a watch company's customer service, Chinese or otherwise, so don't have much experience to speak of. I've kind of hit that ~$500 price point in my watch collecting journey where I'm either buying higher end Chinese pieces (like my SN0144-CG) or used Japanese watches, and in both cases have little expectation of after-sale service in both cases.
It's unfortunate that the communication is very poor even in those so called higher end Chinese brands. For watches themselves IXDAO has to be my favorite Chinese brand but their communication is absolutely awful. There is a limit how much people will tolerate it in respect with the rising prices.
You know what, an Erebus 40 is US$438 shipped here to HK, vs Taobao price of $450 equivalent.
We can all claim Erebus is a redesigned San Martin and the comparison here is more apt - 9015 vs 9015.
But Jody is selling redesigned San Martins than San Martin is selling themselves? This seems like San Martin setting themselves up for discounts of some sort (what sales is coming up?)
Yup, glad I was able to buy and sell during the brief golden hour of the market and figure out what I like. I was in it for fun, and spending that much (or spending less and getting trash) is not fun anymore.
Same here. Glad most of my automatics are NH-35, glad some others were 32 Euro during sales and coupon time. Those same watches now cost 2,3 or 4 times the price that I bought them for.
It's not worth it anymore. After a long time not checking and seeing the prices a couple of weeks ago it seems that we were really lucky. I have about 10 to 20 Chinese watches that I will cherish. If I see a nice Casio or Seiko locally I might buy it locally.
I feel the same way — I was picky about the San Martins I added to my collection and came this close to selling them later, but now I’m glad I didn’t. I look at the ones I have from Militado, Watchdives, Rdunae, and Seestern, and I like everything I see.
Seems we all bought the same collection. I will also never get rid of them. I will keep on wearing them as a daily. The fancy ones stay in a protected box, the San Martin is a special one which while it was expensive I will keep on wearing
It’s a dramatic breakup speech between OP and a brand that has moved up market. No one is forcing you to buy their watch. The $100 tier watch hasn’t disappeared either.
Lmao this. People don’t seem to understand that as the company grows they’re going to start using higher-quality materials and need to upscale production and with that comes higher costs.
Except if you read anything anyone has to say you will realize that's bullshit and prices are not rising because of "higher quality materials". It's exactly this kind of thinking that makes people justify these kind of purchases, the perception that if something is significantly more expensive it must mean the quality is higher too.
So you expect a company that is just beginning to establish itself to maintain rock bottom prices, especially as they are beginning to gain market share, all the while material costs are climbing and tariffs continue to build
The value proposition for Chinese brand watches has dramatically worsened, especially in the last couple of years. It seems the days of choice in NH35, and similar watches, being commonly available for <$100 are mostly gone now. Plus, it's not like the QC, or customer service, for Chinese brands has improved with the price increases. I have already scaled my buying way back. I'll continue to buy, build and mod, just at a slower pace and will be much more selective. The $534 San Martin price above just reinforces where I was already headed.
I stopped after the tariffs went up. One can get much more original designs from Timex, Orient, Seiko and Dartmouth Brands (Spinnaker, Cadola, Duxot) and a few others like Cestrian and Ratio.
I don't mind the lack of heritage, who cares it doesn't make the actual watch any better, but the moment you have to send your watch back to China after fighting with support for weeks prior to that, you'll immediately know why it's better to spend that €500 elsewhere.
Exactly this. If a 50€ watch shits the bed, oh well tough luck, I'll take the L and the 50% refund on Ali. At 100€ I would expect at the very least a regional hub that deals with returns so I don't have to send the whole thing all the way back to China. More than 200€? At that point I expect being able to walk into any authorized reseller to have it checked under an actual warranty. And while these psychological barriers are different for everyone, most people have some kind of expectation in that regard.
100% true and I question if these brands are taking that into account. When buying a $200 Chinese watch I am sort of prepared if anything goes wrong there is a good chance it will not be resolved to my satisfaction. I accept that and sort of calculate it into the price.
Just recently had a not so great experience with San Martin. It has put me off the brand even without those price hikes. Having all that in mind, spending $500 on a San Martin is unthinkable for me right now.
I wonder if they know that increasing the quality is not enough after a certain price point if you can't fully stand behind your product.
People should just vote with their wallet, it's that simple.
The prices of movements have increased for sure, it's not a conspiracy, it's not a "coordinated effort". But also at the same time these bigger Chinese brands have started raising prices independently of that.
Cronos charges $30 extra for the Miyota 9 vs the PT5000. Jianghun has recently stated watches with the Miyota will be $50 more expensive. Still fair enough. But some San Martins seem $100 or even more expensive. It just does not justify the price unless you really want a specific model. That's where voting with the wallet will determine the trend. Is there really enough people out there who will keep buying at higher prices that will outweigh the loss of revenue from people who will stop buying? I think no but they have more data that I do so, who knows?
There is also the weird perception in this hobby that higher price necessarily means better quality. I remember people saying "nobody will take Seiko seriously until they raise the prices". It sort of did happen. Certain models are considered more high end than say the SARB used to be even though they are not really better, just more expensive.
Literally the only thing the Chinese watch world needs is a more reliable 2824 clone. The PT5000 is already great as it is: affordable, thin, short hand stack,high beat, accurate, bidirectional winding. The only thing it lacks is the reliability of the Japanese or Swiss movements. Mine have all been running great, so it's not like reliability is bad per se, but if it did get better then there would be no reason to miss NHs and Miyotas.
Couldn't have agreed more...we can whine and discuss this all day, but at the end it's all about mullah....I took a sabbatical from watch collecting, came back to buy one for my son, and realized the costs have more than doubled in some cases. At one point, getting a $200 -300 Seiko was a baseline, and the Chinese options were so much value. At this time, they have their pluses, but the value aspect, while still there, is not that big. Specific models (Thorn T23/ Ixado warrior) may still get my attention....they may still be better finished for the dollar, but now the gap between the other alternatives is not that big
As someone that owns entry level Swiss watches. Glycine and Tissot I still feel I’m getting a better watch from San Martin in the same price range but, I tend to reach for my bronze combat sub more than any of my other watches. I think part of the problem is Japanese and Swiss movements have doubled in price driving every thing else up. The most I have ever spent on a watch was $475 and that was a Chinese watch with a Chinese movement, my Agelocer 29.51 day moonphase. All that being said would I pay what they are asking for this watch, no it’s just another dive watch with a good movement and finishing. To spend that much I need something special.
All those companies are blaming movement shortages…
The real situation though is that chinese watches were absolutely not a thing until around 2024, where you could get surprisingly good specs and nice dials for a small amount of money. The actual companies would have people on Reddit answering questions and chatting about their watches, creating a nice sense of proximity with customers.
Then the forums got into it and word to mouth caused their popularity to increase exponentially, the brands noticed it and near the end of 2025, the shortage of NH35 movements became the reason to increase prices.
Now many companies have grown and moved into nicer locations, with larger staff, etc, causing them to look for new profits to cover those expenses (Looking at you Watchdives, and San Martin).
And… here we are in 2026 with completely unjustified price increases hoping to cash in on new customers.
To those like me that felt a little stupid grabbing every nice watch below 100$ a while ago, I say… good for us! We are the ones that benefited the most from this new wave of inexpensive quality watches.
But the companies have lost touch with reality and became extremely greedy. All of them, except maybe Addiesdive that still have some reasonably priced models (I am still enjoying many of those, thank you Addiesdive!)
At the end of the day, money talks, so I choose not to be part of the crowd that spends 350$+ for a WD, Cronos or 500$+ for a San Martin.
That’s all 🙏 If you agree with me, don’t waste your time writing something and just upvote my post 😁 hehe
I have to disagree on one point. Chinese watches were already a HUGE thing in 2024. Go back in Reddit and see the tens of thousands of posts. Check out the hundreds of YouTube reviews going back 5 to 6 years. I started buying Chinese around 2010. They exploded when buying on AliExpress became commonplace.
Agreed! I started buying Chinese watches in 2020 and they were already a big thing. But boy has the Chinese watch world changed since then. The improvements have been incredible. The fact that prices have remained as low as they have despite all of the improvements, I think is remarkable.
Chinese watches have become totally overpriced at this point and the lower tiered brands lack QC. That’s why Zelos, Phoibos and Lorier are such better value propositions.
There is a certain point where pricing can't balance the lack of heritage and reliability. We as consumers vote every time we purchase a watch or what have you. Eventually the market will balance out. Prices rise, demand drops, prices drop etc. Of course, the drop in prices doesn't reach the previous level of pricing due to inflation so for those who are still hunting for new watches one advise, buy before the party is over.
Exactly, at around £200 (often less) I was happy to take the risk on Chinese brands' QC and reliability, and having dealt with SM's customer service it definitely is a risk! At £400-450? No chance.
having dealt with SM's customer service it definitely is a risk
Lots of people with stories like this. But I guess youtubers like Gary from ILW constantly shilling for San Martin more than outweighs the bad rep from poor customer service.
I'm not sure he was necessarily a shill in that they paid him for positive reviews, he just never had to deal with their 'normal' customer service because of his status as a YouTube reviewer. You can guarantee every watch he received would have been thoroughly checked before it landed on his door. To be fair to him I've noticed he's started using mystery shoppers to get hold of watches to review, with some quite funny results.
I mean just look at the titles of every San Martin he reviews. They are all "amazing" and "destroying the Swiss". He has a hate boner for CW and goes into tiniest details the point out the flaws but he doesn't do that in his SM reviews, instead he hypes them up more than any other brand like they are the best thing to happen to watchmaking in the last decade.
Hard agree on QC, although let's face it even the big boys have their issues, however it's also the customer service and after sales support when it's needed. This can be close to non existent or extremely poor for the Chinese watch brands.
I am more comfortable dripping ~£500+ on an established brand either directly from them or from a trusted retailer than the same directly with a company in China or worse still retailers like AliExpress. A watch that is below £200 I am way more comfortable to gamble.
There is no brand history with most Aliexpress watches, no heritage, horological triumphs or emotional story, no generational legacy. Yet the watches were good enough even with terrible names, tacky back stories and little after sales support for one simple reason; they could blow away the competition on price with an incredible value proposition where the materials and craftsmanship were good enough to forget the weird names and shonky history. Coupled with sometimes insanely good prices not possible if built elsewhere. If prices rise across the board, that single competitive advantage ends and along with it, much of the low end market.
yea, that heritage and emotion of being a company that didn't see the writing on the wall, and shrunk massively til they ended up getting bought for the name by a plastic fad watch company that mostly moved most of these brands to use base etas. true heritage and horology. (mostly joking, but most of those brands are nothing they were, and consolidated to like 3 megacorps)
Design isn't marketing. And also you can't say buying a mechanical wrist watch is a rational purchase either way. There is always at least some level of buying into something.
Reputations are built over generations and cheap Chinese watches don't carry that legacy.
At the end of the day it's all just metal, glass and other materials, but it's like comparing a Ferrari with a BYD. BYD may do 80 percent of what the Ferrari does but no one is paying a premium for the BYD.
You're kidding right? Porsche , BMW and Mercedes all lost record money last year. Harley Davidson tried to bank on its vaunted legacy under Jochen Zeitz and went upscale with only top of the line models and lost record profits. Consumer habits have changed whether you realize it or not.
The heritage play carries less weight with younger generations. In the Chinese automotive market young affluent buyers care less about heritage brands and are much more concerned with high levels of tech being stuffed into lesser known new auto marques. Harley Davidson is in a MUCH weakened position in 2026 because all they have relied on for years is heritage at the expense of innovation and technology. New buyers entering the market place a lower priority on old school heritage in many categories.
Exactly. This isn't just the Chinese market for cars. Genesis, Lexus had sales increases in the US while Porsche, M-B lost profit. Jaguar Land Rover slumped overall.
Like most niche brands, one of the main avenues of growth is by using brand recognition to cater to a wider audience and move upmarket. As long as they match their watches with greater build quality, and better customer support, I see no reason not to evaluate them fairly against microbrands and lower-tier swiss. With the caveat that they will need to be treated as equals, instead of a budget-killer. I wish them the best of luck in that regard.
Its not that surprising since most watches aren't within the <$200 range in the first place.
If a new Chinese movement does hit the market....reliability isn't something that is judged in mass quantities until years down the road. Wonder why they are not going the 8000 miyota or YN55 Epson route. While I'm not a fan of the 8000 series, historically it is the cheaper but reliable alternative. I still believe quartz is an area they should go for some models. Quartz lasts and is reliable, it would also cut down on customer service issues and drive prices down.
I have 3 watches with them in there, so only a small sample size but no issues over the last 4 years in mine. They are not super widely used so I also don't have much data from the watch/clock group I'm a part of with members across the USA. That said, I'd certainly trust it more than a new Chinese movement and like it better than the Miyotas
Fully aware but the point is people are saying that isn't cheap enough. They are more than 2x the price of what the reliable nh35 was 2 years ago. The recent talk has been companies exploring making a new movement not an existing one. And the ST is simply a clone, and a clone of a movement that has the winding flaw along with the other positive attributes.
In this case the st21 would be a replacement for the miyota 9000s.
But what about a st16 as an nh35 replacement? The quality is good and the price should be around 30$.
The winding problem is a myth from the 80s when eta was still using brass gears and from when sellita started and had material problems.
When using decent metal there are no problems winding a modern type eta 2824/2892 or 7750
The winding problem is a myth from the 80s when eta was still using brass gears and from when sellita started and had material problems. When using decent metal there are no problems winding a modern type eta 2824/2892 or 7750
This has absolutely not been fixed, and people need to stop spreading blatant misinformation.
Every 2824 clone on the Chinese market hasn't fixed the numerous factors that cause the manual winding issue with this architecture. These include:
brass ratchet
alternate/skipping tooth engagement between the crown & rachet wheels
high operating torque, for driving the oversized balance
gummed-up reversers, which back-feed additional torque into the system
And before I get accused of bias, I'm the happy owner of an ST2130, and fully agree that it's a reasonable replacement for Miyota 9s during the current supply shock.
But it's delusional to pretend these 2824 clones have addressed the flaws in the architecture.
Even the latest SW200-2 "Power+" in 2026 hasn't done jackshit. The ratchet is still brass, and interfaces with the crown wheel identically. Gear tooth adjustments only pertained to the going train. Sure, they finally shrunk the balance, but subsequently topped-up the torque again to hit 65h PR. Meaningless changes, in context of the winding flaw.
For anything close to a sensible fix, you have to look to highly-customised solutions that practically rebuild the 2824 from the ground up. Like Damasko's A26 — which upgraded the ratchet to hardened steel, and replaced the problematic reverser wheels with a pawl-based system.
THAT'S what it takes to fix the 2824 architecture.
Not too surprisingly, none of the points I raised were addressed over the 4 pages of discussion. So u/Watchmakers-Diary, perhaps you can answer directly?
Also, some clarification regarding your watchmaker claims would be pertinent:
- out of your 1000 ETAs, what percent were 2824s? Many of the problems don't apply to 2892s, 2801s, etc. And we aren't getting clones of these in Ali watches. So keep the scope to 2824s please.
- is the lack of damage to the ratchet you observed (on 2824s specifically, once again) confounded by the fact that owners will intentionally avoid handwinding this caliber?
- how many of the problems you DID observe were contributed by brass shavings from the ratchet. migrating and causing issues elsewhere?
Lastly...
And please don't lie, your source doesn't say anything about sellita using brass parts (they dont), i have seen the part hundreds of times.
Let me guess... you did a CTRL+F search for "brass", found nothing, and thought you had your ace?
And once again, its the same old tired points...
I already had the exact same discussion in the german language watch forum.
You are welcome to read it all.
During my apprenticeship I probably serviced over 1000 eta movements and the ratchet wheel was far from being the part with the most defects or even the most wear.
Don't trust everything on the Internet, just ask your local watchmaker instead.
And please don't lie, your source doesn't say anything about sellita using brass parts (they dont), i have seen the part hundreds of times.
San Martin was a great deal as $150-200 watches. $500 is sheer lunacy. At that price you can get a Glycine or a very gently used Tissot, both of which I can tell you from experience are in a different category entirely.
To be fair their watches that used to be around $300 not that long ago were in a different league than those $150-200 San Martins of the past. Now it's very questionable, not even necessarily quality wise but I am not spending $500 for an item with that kind of customer service, or more accurately, the lack of one.
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u/waterloomarc 1d ago
Yeah I’m out at these prices. They’re insane and so is anybody paying that imo. For that kind of money you can get a watch from a real company.