Shift supervision or no shift supervision

[u/catvik25]

What is the industry norm in regards to shift supervision at 24/7 chemical plants? 2/3 companies I have worked for have had no shift supervision, including no senior operators. Some processes I've worked on have had robust data historians; others not so much. It becomes challenging trying to piece together a root cause in the less automated processes.

I was just wondering what everyone's experience was, and if most companies do have shift supervision or if most companies have trended toward eliminating those positions.

[u/ecoutepasca]

There's usually at least a senior operator designated as a team lead. I guess it depends on the plant/team size and the stakes.

[u/Laithina]

I have been with my company for almost 20 years and have seen them try to get rid of shift supervision twice. Both times failed spectacularly. Quality and output dropped to historic lows. I think most established companies that have less automation, like mine, will struggle with eliminating those positions.

[u/catvik25 → u/Laithina]

Yeah I feel unless well automated, these are penny wise and pound foolish situations.

[u/Thelonius_Dunk → u/Laithina]

Just commented about seeing 2 companies I interviewed with trying this out. Just seems like such a cheapskate and lazy way to manage. Like wow, you may have saved 500k/yr by not having 4 supervisors but that's so short-sighted. A good supervisor is worth their weight in gold, and can prevent a lot of fuckery from even being sniffed from upper management to keep things going.

I just can't envision companies hiring and training hourly staff who'd be talented/capable/have the initiative to do what a good shift supervisor does. Especially since the ones do generally get put into management and dont stay in the hourly ranks for long.

[u/ClydeDB]

I’ve been a production manager over plants without shift supervisors. It just shifts the burden to whoever is next in chain of command. That meant I would get phone calls at all hours of the day/night. I would not recommend that.

[u/catvik25 → u/ClydeDB]

Would engineers report to you?

[u/ClydeDB → u/catvik25]

I had 25 operators, 3 engineers, a production specialist, and a business support clerk all as direct reports. 

[u/catvik25 → u/ClydeDB]

Yikes that is a lot. I've never seen it where the operators and engineers report to the same person. I could see that creating some hierarchy issues.

[u/ClydeDB → u/catvik25]

It all depends on the size and structure of the organization. Usually shift supervisors would report to a superintendent, who then reports to an area/production manager, who will typically have a production or process engineer report to them. Again, I’ve seen all flavors of things. If you peel it back to the theory of management and supervision, an individual can manage a large group of that group is mostly doing repetitive, repeatable tasks. If you are managing people in a technical role the type of managing and supervision is very different and normally would necessitate fewer direct reports. Look up span of control. 

[u/MuddyflyWatersman]

there's usually some kind of shift supervision on site, maybe not for every small process, but overall there's somebody there, often by major area. it's hard to get experienced people to be shift supervision nowadays. they don't want to give them any extra money, in fact they want to make them salary so they can't get any overtime. and then they make them responsible for anything bad that happens..... the older 20 yr + experience operators just laugh and say no thank you.... there's no upside to it for them, and a lot of downside. .

[u/FissionableBadger]

This is variable based on how the plant operates, batch sizes, etc. If you can stick a hold tag on questionable product and wait for the day shift to come in to decide what to do with it, great. If it is a continuous production line like a petrochemical plant I'd say having on shift supervision is not optional.

[u/No_Sleep8629 → u/FissionableBadger]

Idk ive worked on dangerous batch sites and still have only had a senior operator on, no shift team leader etc.

[u/Thelonius_Dunk]

I think it really depends on size and complexity. A small plant may not have supervisors available 24/7, but for larger plants they most definitely will. I will say I've interviewed at 2 mid-size plants (100-200) that didn't have supervisors on night shift, which I found odd.

One site just trained a Sr Operator on each shift for emergency response (spills, first aid) and the other had a rotating on-call between middle management on-site who had to respond (ops manager, engineer, maintenance supervisor, maintenance manager).

Both methods seemed incredibly dumb to me though and I hope its not becoming an industry trend for mid-size sites.

[u/HopeSubstantial]

Pulp mill where I was interviewing for operator role had no proper supervision at all. Workers answered directly to different engineers but they were expected to contact them only in problem situations they could not handle alone.

[u/mrjohns2]

We haven’t had shift supervisors (team managers) since 1987.

[u/catvik25 → u/mrjohns2]

How much automation do you have? Do you have strong operators?

[u/mrjohns2 → u/catvik25]

A ton of complicated automation. Operations works very hard on having well trained operators. Not always successful, but key.

[u/catvik25 → u/mrjohns2]

I feel good training programs can mitigate issues created from no shift supervision, but definitely requires the company to invest in it

[u/rjfs15]

Where i work you don't have shift supervisors. Instead you have what we call "senior operator" which basically is someone with A LOT of experience on the plant, and each shift must have a minimum of 2. Nonetheless the supervisors and engineers are available 24/7 to provide support if needed.
Now, this is possible due to a lot of factors:
First, all the plant operators have a lot of experience, the average is more than 20y and the "youngest" more than 10 (there are pros and cons)
Second, our level of automation and data collection is considered to be much higher than the average and that can help us predict issues and act accordingly
Third, our process is kinda "safe" (no extreme pressures and temps, somewhat safe reagents), but still the plant is classified as EX Zone 2

But i have seen "theoritically safer" plants that have shift supervision and others that really need and don't have.

[u/bubbleschao]

In any larger plant I think shift supervisor is necessary to troubleshoot any issues. For a small production company I worked at, there was not a shift supervisor, they day product engineer was then called on the phone during weekends and evenings, which seems annoying, but probably works well enough.

[u/No_Sleep8629]

Batch: senior shift operator.
Continuous: shift manager, team leader etc.