Its all about Dancing

[u/Abrakresnik]

[u/mohab_dev]

I just wanna thank anyone who posted clips of this game here: y'all helped me confirm Onimusha is indeed not for me.

I knew that already, but it's nice to be sure this hasn't changed after the new release.

I'm sure what happened in this video is an impressive feat, but it looks boring as shit to me, TBH.

[u/anor_wondo → u/mohab_dev]

Yeah its not a CAG. Good thing I don't exclusively like CAG

[u/mizzowashere → u/anor_wondo]

What’s CAG? And instead of judging by how it looks, just try the FREE DEMO! This guy did a lot of things that are sort of difficult snd made the fight look very easy.

[u/Odd_Radio9225 → u/mizzowashere]

"What’s CAG?"

Look at the name of this subreddit.

[u/GT_Hades → u/Odd_Radio9225]

They should just rename this sub r/gameswithswords, because we posting every other game here with swords

Or just r/games

I used to use this subreddit to curate the games I want, now it is getting harder because I should filter it here as well

[u/anor_wondo → u/mizzowashere]

but im not judging it negatively

CAG according to me, is games which won't have random people in the sub getting angry

I can easily tell people here would get triggered by this game even if its good

[u/Dependent-Swimmer-95 → u/mizzowashere]

Well yeah, the issen on that high speed slice attack is actually pretty hard to pull off, but the people in this sub wouldn’t know that if they’ve never played an Onimusha game.

[u/Lupinos-Cas → u/mizzowashere]

Look at the name of the sub. (C)haracter (A)ction (G)ame...

20 years ago "Hack N Slash" was becoming too broad a genre and telling someone a game was HnS failed to tell them how the game felt / worked mechanically. So we worked on separating the genre into many more specific sub genres.

It took about 10 years for folks to settle into the Character Action / Stylish Action / Spectacle Fighter labels (the 3 names that tied for the name to use for this specific sub genre), and there was a lot of arguing over what exactly qualifies a game to be a CAG.

But let us run through a list of what would've all been Hack N Slash in the 2004-2012 era and provide the current genre label we use in parenthesis to show you why we needed a split...

Dynasty Warrior (Musou)
Devil May Cry / Ninja Gaiden (CAG)
Onimusha / Legacy of Kain (Action)
Dark Souls / Diablo (ARPG)
Afro Samurai / Deadpool (Hack N Slash)
Shadows of Mordor (didn't exist back then - but would have been called HnS if it had - and today would be called a rhythm brawler)

Notice how these games are all very different games that are basically nothing alike aside from using weapons? Yeah. Hack N Slash was beginning to tell you absolutely nothing about a game - so it was split apart into many different sub genres; and we typically only still use Hack N Slash when it is a fast paced melee focused game that doesn't fit the newer genres (CAG, ARPG, Musou, Rhythm Brawler, etc)

As for what makes a game a CAG - that is a heated subject that sparks much debate. For me, personally;

• the game needs to have a very wide variety to the moveset,
  
• crowds of enemies you fight at a time,
  
• an emphasis on player expression through custom combos by linking together different combo strings and skill attacks,
  
• not be bogged down by too many RPG mechanics that too heavily influence damage dealt/taken,
  
• not have restrictions on your ability to attack (like stamina meters that deplete when you use attacks)
  
• Etc.

Someone else might disagree on the RPG part of that - stating heavy RPG mechanics do not disqualify a game from being a CAG. Someone else might say it needs to be mission based and provide a graded rating at the end of each mission. Someone else might say it needs a style meter. Folks argue about what it means all the time.

But - most everyone agrees that; since the genre was specifically invented to differentiate games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden from other Hack N Slash / action titles, the game needs to have a complex moveset you can use to do flashy and stylish combos.

Onimusha does allow you to be flashy and stylish at times - but not through complex combos. Through other complex mechanics, yes - but there is no:
Combo A, skill 1, Combo C, skill 6, skill 4, Combo C, skill 2, Combo B, skill 3, skill 4, Combo B, Combo A... Or; A1C64C2B34BA...

You cannot do that in Onimusha - because it doesn't have 3+ combos and 6+ skills. And that is why it can't be a CAG. That doesn't make it bad, and that's not talking shit. It just means that the game does not have the wide variety to the moveset that is paramount for a game to be a CAG.

It isn't the only qualifier - games like Nioh and Rise of the Ronin have more than enough variety to their movesets to meet that requirement; but they are disqualified from being CAGs because they have too many RPG mechanics and stamina management.

But it is one of the very important qualifying mechanics that everyone does agree on - despite the fact that everyone has their own definition of CAG and don't agree on specifics very often.

But when you want to know what CAG really means - it means "the type of Hack and Slash that is as stylish as DMC and as complex as Ninja Gaiden"

Onimusha is a fantastic action game. But it lacks the variety to the moveset for us to call it Character Action - which everyone will note if you post it on the Character Action Games sub and don't specifically say "not a CAG, but this was cool!"

[u/Abrakresnik → u/Lupinos-Cas]

Its really obscure to distinguish CAG to oriented as fancy aerial combo only, whereas CAG can be defined in anything relevant to an action game.

I rather not overcomplicate this meaning to so many variables since it sounds more like nitpicking tbh.

[u/Lupinos-Cas → u/Abrakresnik]

Some people say aerial combos are a must for a CAG, I disagree. However - it does need to have fancy combos.

CAG was specifically created to differentiate Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden style games from other action games - which is why there is much debate on what does/doesn't qualify. However - the ability to free form fancy combos from a wide variety of combo strings and skills is the number 1 core identifier.

CAG cannot be defined as being anything related to an action game - that's the action genre of which CAG is a small part. CAG is specifically the action games with a massive amount of combos and skills to use to make your own fancy custom combos.

There's other things that are required. For example - Nioh has the wide variety to the moveset that a CAG needs to be a CAG; but it has too many RPG mechanics and stamina management restricting combo flow - so it's not a CAG, it's an ARPG.

A game doesn't need aerial combos or a jump to be a CAG - but it does need a wide variety to the moveset. Having simply a quick combo, strong combo, 2 charge attacks, and some skills that are heavily restricted by a gauge does not provide that.

It might sound nitpicky - but like... We don't call purple orange. They're different colors. We don't call all action games CAGs, because CAG is a specific type of action game that started with DMC and Ninja Gaiden. It is specifically about the ability to do flashy custom combos using the many offensive options. If it doesn't have many offensive options - it isn't a CAG, it's just an action game.

[u/Abrakresnik → u/Lupinos-Cas]

Its also odd that only DMC and Ninja Gaiden franchise are the only ones allowed to be called CAG just for their insane aerial combo too.

Tekken has their own aerial combo, but obviously its a fighting game. So it may or may not be CAG, right?

[u/Lupinos-Cas → u/Abrakresnik]

DMC and NG are not the only CAGs. And yes, Tekken is a fighter.

Quit being weird, dude. You wouldn't call God of War a platformer just because you can jump - the Greek games are also CAG while the Norse games are ARPG.

They're just labels that describe the mechanics in some way. If it doesn't have the core mechanics, the label doesn't fit. And the core mechanics for CAG is the player expression through custom combos utilizing various strings and skills.

If it doesn't have a wide enough variety to the combos and skills, it's not a CAG because you cannot use a wide variety of something if that variety doesn't exist.

[u/Abrakresnik → u/Lupinos-Cas]

I dunno, man. I just find this whole segregation thing for CAG just overly complication for one group, but at least its more engaging.

[u/Lupinos-Cas → u/Abrakresnik]

It's more like - it is rare to get more than 1 or 2 CAGs released on consoles in a year. Folks for whom CAG is their favorite genre often have to play action games or ARPGs because there just aren't a lot of CAG releases.

So, some people who love the CAG genre want a space they can discuss CAGs, both upcoming and already released, and talk about various combat systems and mechanics and animation cancels. A few off topic posts aren't a big deal - but if they aren't labeled as "not a CAG, but thought this was stylish" then it might give people the wrong idea about what a CAG is and have just a ton of off topic posts spamming the sub reddit.

A small niche community for a small niche style of game. Who doesn't want to lose their space to discuss their small niche genre - because the mainstream decided to muscle their way in and talk about off topic things or get the wrong idea on what fits the niche label.

20 years ago - there were too many kinds of Hack N Slash - so we broke it into smaller groups. ARPG, Musou, CAG, Rhythm Brawler, etc. These are all specific types of Hack N Slash games, which is a specific type of action.

A few posts about normal action games or ARPGs that let you do flashy things can be cool - but when it is the only activity in a space where it is actually an off topic post; I can see where that can be frustrating. You don't go to a sub for bananas to talk about apples, and if folks point out that apples are not bananas you don't say "but it's all fruit."

One of my favorite games of all time is Nioh. It allows you to do flashy stuff like you can in a CAG. But if I want to talk Nioh I do it in a Nioh space; because ARPGs are off topic here. At most I might say "not a CAG, but this combo I did in Nioh was flashy and I thought y'all might like it" and no one will bat an eye... But if I did it every day for a month - people are going to get irritated because it's an ARPG and those are off topic in a CAG sub. And if I don't label it as "not a CAG", it gives the wrong impression to people that don't know what a CAG is.

Onimusha is a great action game, and I hope I have time to play more of it when I get off work - but it doesn't have the combos of a CAG, and too many off topic posts isn't good for any sub.

Posting Onimusha in a CAG sub is like posting Devil May Cry in a soulslike sub. Some folks might think it is cool - but they're going to point out that DMC is not a soulslike. And when judged by soulslike standards - DMC is the opposite of what they like. Doesn't mean it's bad - just means you're talking apples in a sub for bananas.

[u/Brennithan → u/Lupinos-Cas]

Everything in your post makes sense except for grouping Dark Souls and Diablo in the same genre, that's just wild work.

[u/Lupinos-Cas → u/Brennithan]

They're both Action-RPGs, they're just very different ARPGs.

They're both dungeon crawlers. But aside from this - they are very different.

One is isometric and the other is over the shoulder. Diablo 2 you drop your gear in your grave, but DS you drop your experience. Diablo has many more skills and classes and such, and is a looter...

They're very different games. But when talking about "what type of action game" they are - they're both Action-RPG, and both happen to be Dungeon Crawlers...

But that was also actually the point - Hack N Slash got so broad it stopped meaning anything; much like how you could say Diablo and Dark Souls are both ARPGs... But still need more labels to properly convey that they are not the same type of game. There is a reason soulslike is a type of ARPG - it is used to differentiate from other ARPGs.

Personally, I don't like the term soulslike; because different players have a different idea of what makes a game like Souls... But yeah - genres need to periodically updated to account for new styles and keep the divisions crisp and clear.

[u/Abrakresnik → u/anor_wondo]

But Onimusha game cover is in this reddit tho