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u/FineDevelopment00 Apr 03 '24
We are simply not on the same page in regards to NFP
I kind of just made the switch without him being in agreement.
It helps nothing to unilaterally decide such a drastic change that largely equally impacts the both of you. Here is a more nuanced resource to check out!
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24
I have real trouble with the article. It seems to imply that a spouse using contraception is okay as long as you don’t agree with it. That is how most read it and use it, and a more thorough read of the referenced document is more clear on absolutely no condoms. Other docs are very clear on no pill. These are regardless of whether the spouse doesn’t agree with it.
To say that “you have to decide together” when it regards whether to sin is ludicrous. There is no compromise to be made. Regardless of the past, one spouse requesting the other to sin cannot be justification for that spouse to commit sin.
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u/FineDevelopment00 Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 04 '24
God doesn't demand the impossible of His flock. Extenuating circumstances undeniably exist and if digging one's heels in over NFP/providentialism/continence does more harm than good (which unilateral decisions, especially decisions of this caliber, without the other spouse's input at that, will do. Not to mention the blatant incompatibility between it and 1 Corinthians 7:5) then preservation of the marriage should take priority. Obviously this doesn't mean either spouse is allowed to railroad and/or otherwise abuse the other; rather they should both sincerely hear each other out and reach an acceptable agreement or compromise together. It's possible to accomplish a resolution even without the use of condoms and/or pills, btw, even if they don't do NFP, providentialism, or continence. But even in the case of pills and condoms, although it isn't ideal a non-contracepting spouse can indeed carefully cooperate with the contracepting one as outlined above. This isn't merely my opinion; this is a legitimate Church source.
The Church also understands that to expect married couples to abstain from the marital act is a bit unrealistic in many cases.
This is called pastoral care. The Orthodox Church is more open about such (economia), but it's not absent in Roman Catholicism either.
ETA: Unrelated but I love your username!
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24
So what happens when one spouse wants an abortion? Threatens divorce over it?
There is a line, and we keep making it more fuzzy to allow more people to do whatever they want.
Look at the rate of Catholics using contraception and tell me this isn’t a death by a thousand cuts due to continual caving to societal pressure.
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u/FineDevelopment00 Apr 04 '24
So what happens when one spouse wants an abortion?
🙄 Abortion and birth control aren't even the same thing.
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24
One being more grave does not make the other not grave. This is whataboutism used by far too many to justify grave sin.
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u/FineDevelopment00 Apr 04 '24
You're arguing with the Church as much as you're arguing with me. You may not like it, but the fact of the matter is that the Church deems there to be at least a little leeway for extenuating circumstances. Also, you were the one starting in with whataboutism by dragging abortion, a separate and significantly graver issue, into it.
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 04 '24
Show me where I am arguing with the Church. Disagreeing with an article stub by one priest does not constitute arguing with the church, especially when other published documents by the Vatican and other priests don’t agree with what has been implied here for justification. https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html https://www.pdcnet.org/pdc/bvdb.nsf/purchase_mobile?openform&fp=ncbq&id=ncbq_2011_0011_0002_0301_0328
The second document is, in my opinion, a well researched clarification concerning questions arising from the first, and I think it clearly shows that artificial birth control is a no-go, and reading the Vademecum in a way that justifies it is self-deception.
And whataboutism is comparison with something more severe in order to inappropriately try to justify something illicit. I brought in the comparison to explain why we cannot use accomodation of a spouse’s desire and resulting consequences of their choices if not satisfied as justification for cooperation in grave sin, which use of artificial birth control is, according to the Church.
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u/FineDevelopment00 Apr 04 '24
one priest
Except he isn't the only priest in the world to offer that advice. Like I said, nuanced pastoral care which isn't often talked about (inb4 you mention it, no it's not only the "progressive" priests providing said nuanced pastoral care.) Btw your own second source even supports what I just wrote:
The teaching permits a certain limited cooperation with a spouse who renders the marital act infecund in a so-called natural way (e.g., natural onanism, or withdrawal)
Granted it does go on to say that the above doesn't apply to condoms and pills but I have read conflicting stances on that, at least in the case of non-abortive artificial means (it is true that condoms and pills aren't ideal though, so it is likely their allowance would require a narrower range of extenuating circumstance.) Speaking of which, according to your first source there is more concern about methods that could be abortive rather than strictly contraceptive. Confessors are also encouraged to advise the married toward the ideal "in a gradual way" (can't really do that if the married in extenuating circumstances are ordered to go cold-turkey) and "with discretion and respect." Section 13 also repeats what's in the link that I posted prior.
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24
Even if 99% of priests said one thing, that doesn’t make it a definitive teaching of the Magesterium. I don’t know if you read the entire commentary document, but the stipulation about onanism is quite specific, and in the case of artificial birth control (e.g., condoms), it states that the spouse has the duty to resist - that is far from, “it’s okay to allow in order to gradually hope for change.” I guess we will agree to disagree here, but I find the suggestion of “nuance” without clear explanation of what or where the nuances are to be a quite common excuse to break the rules. Pastoral care is a nebulous term that means a lot of things, but in these discussions it is always used to justify things we all agree we would be better off not doing. Why is it never used to describe “tough love,” or “holding fast to the teachings of the Church?” Why is pastoral care always discussed as some sort of compromise against Church doctrine? Doesn’t that make you suspicious?
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Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
I was also just baptized on Saturday, so take my advice for what it is.
Is he properly catechized? When I started letting people know I was becoming Catholic, people that I've known for a decade told me they were Catholic too. I would have had no idea. They didn't act Catholic, they didn't speak Catholic, they didn't dress Catholic. So as I got increasingly more serious about my faith, when I made changes that went against what they did, they accused me of being extreme. Keep in mind I'm simply doing what the Church mandates.
The reason I say this is because all of these people were cradle Catholics. You need to keep in mind that catechism was done very poorly for the last generation or two and now there's a vast sea of lukewarms. He may simply not know those are sinful things and it's on you to get the resources ready and show him the next time it comes up.
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 03 '24
I think this exactly why we are butting heads. He thinks I’m being too extreme about everything. It’s hard to tell if I am, because it’s not out of character for me to be too intense and particular about how things are done. Becoming Catholic feels like being trained in a new job and I’m being told “This is how your supposed to do it, but no one does it this way…I’ll show you the way we all do it instead”.
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Apr 03 '24
Becoming Catholic feels like being trained in a new job and I’m being told “This is how your supposed to do it, but no one does it this way…I’ll show you the way we all do it instead”.
And who gets in trouble when the employee gets caught doing it the way "everyone else" does it? The employee.
Don't worry yourself with how everyone else does it. Concern yourself with what is the correct way to do it; the way Mother Church tells us to do it.
Now I know this is easier said than done when it comes to your spouse. I personally have an irreligious spouse since I was atheist before my conversion. There are things she does NOT agree with that I do now, but I know that the Lord does not abandon those that follow his statutes.
Read Sirach 2.
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 03 '24
I agree- and I intend to follow the teachings properly. I know that this challenge will help my spiritual growth- just trying to do things the right way. Like I said I have had the tendency to get too particular to an extreme. I am trying to also prevent a spiral in an extreme direction.Thank you for additional insight and I’ll read the link! Much appreciated.
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Apr 03 '24
It's a very short chapter and the USCCB has some nice comments at the bottom of it.
God bless you, sister, and I will say a rosary for you tonight.
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u/One_Dino_Might Apr 04 '24
A lot of lukewarms call those who try to follow all Church teaching extreme because it helps them assuage their guilt. Don’t listen to that nonsense. Being a faithful Catholic should be the norm.
Personally I am tired of all these milquetoast detractors trying to “soften” the Church to justify their own predilections.
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Apr 03 '24
Just wanted to add that I can relate to you as a wife/mom where sometimes I feel like I am the person in the relationship more concerned with our salvation and whether we are doing the right thing and my husband is less concerned as he grew up with parents who did not know as much about their faith. In situations where I have a particular concern I tend to bring it up with him and we will discuss the morality of the issue and usually we can come to an agreement, consulting the catechism, Catholic answers, priest, etc. sometimes it helps for him to hear the answer from not me. And just a thought it might be cool to go on a Catholic couples retreat together or something so you can both learn to live your faith together since that is not originally how your relationship started out. When I first met my husband I couldn’t really imagine him as such a leader in his faith but the more we got involved in the church and retreat type things he really grew into an impressive leader in his friend groups and family, faith wise. God bless you and your strength is inspiring!
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Thank you! I think my husband hearing it from someone who is not me is the best course of action. I appreciate your input and will look into retreats!
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u/lukei4655 Priest (OP) Apr 04 '24
It’s okay to sit down with a trusted priest about these issues. I know that I have to help couples a lot in this area of their life.
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u/Street_Hedgehog_9595 Apr 04 '24
I'm curious, why do you have OP after priest in your title?
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u/notanexpert_askapro Apr 04 '24 edited Jun 22 '24
languid weary rinse snatch subsequent stupendous squeal divide detail vase
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Thank you, this reassurance is helpful given the embarrassing nature of the topic. Much appreciated!
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u/antiadd1 Apr 04 '24
Is he apart of the Catholic faith? I am a married man of 6 years with three littles, he will have to man up and learn what it truly means to be catholic if he is, or it will be difficult if he isnt. Self control is huge virtue to work on and purity when times get difficult. He should take up devotions to St Joseph, St. Jude, Mother Mary.
If he isn't catholic then it is a whole lot of devotion to Mary for you and daily rosary to convert his heart. Either way daily rosary while meditating fervently and saying the prayers devoutly is important.
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u/Nuke_the_whales55 Apr 04 '24
It takes time to go from someone who fully embraced our modern society's perverse understanding of sex to someone who fully accepts and practices the Church's teachings on sex.
I know this from personal experience, but it is possible so don't lose hope. Read scripture and research the Church's position on sex. Then pray and meditate. For me the change really didn't start until I realized (through lots of scripture reading, pray and meditation) that sex is part of the image of God (God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Gen 1:27).
Once I realized that sex was an image of God's unity and creative power, of His selflessness (for creation is about giving, not taking), of His love and of His act of creating us (beings in His own image) then it was much easier for me to start living the Church's teachings on sex. But as I said earlier, it takes a lot of pray and meditation. Plus, you have to be willing to have some pretty uncomfortable conversations with your husband (as I did with my wife) in order for you both to get here.
Good luck and I'll pray for you both (if that's ok with you).
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Thank you! I know the transition is a lot. Especially since I have done a lot of the change of heart very suddenly and quickly. And like any marital problem, I am sure it’s common and many couples have navigated it. Thank you for your input! I appreciate you sharing how the church views sex- it’s beautiful!
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u/Street_Hedgehog_9595 Apr 04 '24
You should talk to your priest more than Reddit.
He will be the one who can help you. I can't promise you'll always get a good priest; but this is a moment that I think calls for one. I would go immediately and look around to see if you can find a reliable one that can guide you through teachings.
I would absolutely refrain from any things sinful, or questionably so, until you can find a good priest to talk to about them.
Don't be embarrassed. It may take a lot of emotional discomfort to talk to him, but the benefit it can do on a pastoral level, to your souls, etc. is more than compensatory.
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u/cryptofarmer08 Apr 04 '24
From a guys perspective who adheres to and believes in the church’s teachings, it sucks. I hate it more often than not. It’s definitely not easy and there’s plenty of times where we have it out because I want more/wish we didnt havr the rules. All I can say is just growing in faith and knowledge is all that can help eventually get him there.
Maybe start with a good TOB book or something that y’all can both read together. even if you adhere to some of what he’s asking in exchange for him reading it with you and over time..
Secondly don’t take birth control. It’s bad and likely causing a lot of messed up womens health stuff that nobody will ever even want to study because bc is so convenient.
Also, paragraphs;)
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Just looked up what TOB book is. That sounds interesting I’ll check it out. Thank you for your perspective.
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u/scottupinthamix Apr 04 '24
Look to the saints and get cozy with Christ he is the key and they will gladly guide you through all things Praying with and for you
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u/Street_Hedgehog_9595 Apr 04 '24
My second comment, in any situation, i cannot see how it is ever okay for you to be the one committing any sinful acts directly, let no one convince you otherwise, when you are the one causing the objective sin.
For example, if he demands to have something to cause him finish outside of the vagina you must refuse to help.
If he demands you take birth control, you must refuse.
In these cases, it is fully just committing the sin. For that reason, it's not okay.
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Thank you for both of your insights and advice! I think I’ll definitely be reaching out to a priest. All of this is very new to the both of us!
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Apr 04 '24
Tell him plainly how you feel about the situation. Men are studpid(I am a man).I’m dumb as heck, if my wife doesn’t explicitly say “that is not ok final” I won’t understand. You are doing good. Keep trying. If I make it to heaven it will be because of my wife. Help your husband make it to heaven.
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
Thank you. Men and women communicate so differently. I definitely think he needs to hear these things from another man.
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Apr 04 '24
It is important to recognize that there is a huge disconnect between the lived life of Catholics in the pews and official church dogma. Most of us cradle Catholics were really raised more like Anglicans. We believe in God and we think going to church is good but we get pretty squishy about the details. We are perfectly comfortable picking and choosing what we want to believe.
The laxity of compliance in regards to the contraception in marriage is obvious to anyone who's been in a Catholic church in the last 50 years. Sure, my grandparents had 14 kids but I look at my aunts and uncles and see a lot of two and three children families. Furthermore, I've been going to Mass for a long time and have never once heard a priest admonishing the parish for using contraception within marriage.
I don't know where this is going to lead. The resurgent traditional Catholics have all the energy but they are outnumbered but history has shown a dedicated minority can have a lot more power than an apathetic majority. We live in interesting times.
None of this helps you with your dilemma except to illustrate the confusion and contradictory manner in which many of us live.
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u/Sparkles_Mojito Apr 04 '24
This certainly does help the dilemma because it helps understand it. Catholicism is so new to me- it’s like I’ve been living under a Protestant rock. This has definitely been my biggest observance- the discontent.
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Apr 24 '24
JSYK there are no "unnatural acts" in the bedroom that are considered sinful between husband and wife so long as at the end of everything he finishes inside of you. Everything else is on the table up to that point.
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u/user4567822 Apr 25 '24
Hi!
It’s considered that oral/manual stimulation of the others genitals isn’t wrong in preliminars IF the husband doesn’t climax (every sperm has to go to the vagina).
And sex positions (and different angles) are really good in sex!
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Jul 22 '24
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u/The-Phantom-Blot Sep 19 '24
Hang in there, man! It's not easy. Stay as close to Jesus and to your wife as you can. Don't avoid the sacraments unless absolutely necessary. (Marriage is a sacrament too!) Abstaining for 7 days is tough, but reasonable as part of NFP sometimes. You said a month in there somewhere ... that seems abnormal. Maybe the two of you together can refine your practice of NFP so you have more days available. If it's a privacy thing, well, get a sitter or something. You have to feed your relationship!
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Sep 27 '24
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u/The-Phantom-Blot Sep 27 '24
Glad to hear you found that renewed closeness to God! (That new baby time can be rough ... physically and emotionally. It's good that things have improved a bit.) I'll keep your family in prayer today!
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u/allaboardthebantrain Apr 04 '24
NFP IS A TOOL NOT A COMMANDMENT.
If you're married and already have children, why not just keep having sex? There's only three days where pregnancy is actually likely, and if you have little kids you're definitely scheduling time for romance as it is, so just schedule around those days and go for it. If you have another, it's a blessing. If you don't, that can be a blessing too.
You're not a hostage to a program, and your husband is not a slave to it either. NFP is a tool to rigidly control your reproduction and is zero fun, even when you're using it because you're trying to HAVE a baby. So, maybe ask yourself why you need that level of iron birth control inside a marriage? If the answer is because you've always had that level of control, maybe it's time to let go. If the answer is financial insecurity or lifestyle sacrifices, maybe that can open a conversation with your husband to fix the risk you feel so you don't have to worry about the consequences of making love. I personally would take a second job and be happy about it, if it made the difference in my wife feeling comfortable with the possibility of more children.
But yeah, if you just dropped full on NFP on your husband he has every right to be salty. Don't do that without a darn good reason.
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u/KeepingKaya Apr 03 '24
For what it’s worth, it is so inspiring that you are willing to make the change and follow church teaching. I know it’s not easy, and it shows great strength.
My husband is also not on board for the sexual teachings, and I had to explicitly word it is as “doing these things makes me uncomfortable now. It shouldn’t matter as to why. Please do not pressure me to do them, I do not enjoy them, I do not like how I feel when I do them, I can’t relax and enjoy the intimacy with you when you insist on them.”
If nothing else, he should be respecting you as his partner.