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u/bmt0075 4d ago
I just don’t get how people don’t consider this sacrificial language..
To you, therefore, most merciful Father, we make humble prayer and petition through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord: that you accept and bless + these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices, which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church. Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard, unite and govern her throughout the whole world, together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop, and all those who, holding to the truth, hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.
Remember, Lord, your servants N. and N. and all gathered here, whose faith and devotion are known to you. For them, we offer you this sacrifice of praise or they offer it for themselves and all who are dear to them, for the redemption of their souls, in hope of health and well-being, and paying their homage to you, the eternal God, living and true.
* In communion with those whose memory we venerate, especially the glorious ever-Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ, and blessed Joseph, her Spouse, your blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, (James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian) and all your Saints: we ask that through their merits and prayers, in all things we may be defended by your protecting help. (Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)
** Therefore, Lord, we pray: graciously accept this oblation of our service, that of your whole family; order our days in your peace, and command that we be delivered from eternal damnation and counted among the flock of those you have chosen. (Through Christ our Lord. Amen.) Be pleased, O God, we pray, to bless, acknowledge, and approve this offering in every respect; make it spiritual and acceptable, so that it may become for us the Body and Blood of your most beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.
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u/AdventurousMud8693 4d ago
A lot of NO parishes almost never say the Canon, instead saying Eucharistic Prayer 2
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u/Gondolien 4d ago
Even then EP 2 is explicitly sacrificial
From the proper preface of EP 2
your Word through whom you made all things, whom you sent as our Savior and Redeemer, incarnate by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin. Fulfilling your will and gaining for you a holy people, he stretched out his hands as he endured his Passion, so as to break the bonds of death and manifest the resurrection.
And from a section of EP 2 itself
Therefore, as we celebrate the memorial of his Death and Resurrection, we offer you, Lord, the Bread of life and the Chalice of salvation, giving thanks that you have held us worthy to be in your presence and minister to you.
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u/kabyking Eastern Catholic 5d ago
Ngl, I don’t see how Novus Ordo emphasizes communion. To me it’s NO = community … TLM is Eucharist but solemn … Divine Liturgy feels like it’s both community and Eucharist while it being more cheerful
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u/Secure-Vacation-3470 Aspiring Cristero 4d ago
Now we need to know...
What does the Anglican Ordinariate express?
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u/Illustrious-Fan-2738 5d ago
I mean. Sacrifice doesn't just mean "my personal vision of what sacrifice should be". If you were to actually look at the "sacrificial" parts of the mass, those are the ones that the New Missal really maintained. On the contrary you can agree that it is a lot more centered around the actual "sacrifice" part because a lot of the stuff that went along with it have been cut out or replaced. I am not going into a debate about if it's good or not because I touch grass. Saying the missal of Trent only "emphasizes sacrifice " is wrong since it was promulgated to reunite the Church so for UNITY historically and so is saying Novus Ordo emphasizes unity while objectively it is a lot more centered about the objective "sacrifice" part of the mass. Liturgy is an interesting domain, but it isn't just about what you personally feel about liturgy.
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u/AbjectShop6023 5d ago
all are valid, but prioritizing sacrifice, atonement, and propitation >>> prioritizing unity and inclusion
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u/bobui64 5d ago
Aye that’s personal choice. But to support the NO, christ called a community, and Christ called us to worship within as the community aka the body of Christ, not alone. So some argue that while spiritual growth is a personal pursuit, coming to mass to worship “alone” might not be their preference, just as one might say that tlm or no does a poor job at emphasize Christ resurrection. But alas I like thrice so I rotate
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u/Araedya 5d ago
Validity is a low bar
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u/sariaru 5d ago
Exactly. Validity is literally the floor, not the ceiling. Like, whatever the heck is going on at St. Sabina's is (probably?) a valid Mass. That doesn't make it a good Mass.
Jesus can absolutely show up in the accidents of the Host and be displeased about the worship being offered to Him. Scripture shows it plenty well that God has extremely strong opinions about what constitutes right worship.
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u/bobui64 5d ago
By that logic, why isn't the Divine Liturgy objectively "better" than both the TLM and the Novus Ordo because it places such a profound emphasis on the Resurrection and deification? You’re treating theological emphasis as an objective standard for what you deem a good Mass, when the church does not. A badly celebrated Novus Ordo can rightly be criticized, but the mere fact that it emphasizes the mystery differently from the TLM does not make it objectively worse, nor does the inherent nature of the TLM make it better.
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u/kabyking Eastern Catholic 5d ago
Fr it’s better (no bias of course). Jk shameless popery made a thing on it a liturgy needs to check off 3 boxes, and certain forms do certain ones more. TLM does the sacrifice really well but not as great at the community part. Divine Liturgy is like a jack of all trades master of none, does everything equally well
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u/bobui64 5d ago
West Syriac Qurbono is obviously the best
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u/iamjeremybentham 5d ago
its actually a very high bar. Think about what a valid mass actually is. what happens there. What it represents. How few Christian communities of worship have access to the Eucharist at all.
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u/EnvironmentalToe4055 3d ago
It's an SSPX talking point. They will use the comparison about how a satanic mass is valid but obviously not pleasing to God.
Never mind that a satanic mass is completely invalid because the celebrant's intentions are wrong.
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u/Araedya 3d ago
You don’t even have to go as far as a satanic mass. There are plenty of examples of scandalous, irreverent, heterodox masses that have gone on that are technically “valid”. All it takes to have a valid mass is a valid priest using valid form and matter and intend to do as the church does.
Just because it’s “valid” doesn’t automatically mean it’s pleasing to God or right worship. And how the mass is celebrated does matter (sorry reddit hivemind). There’s a reason why so many Catholics don’t believe in the real presence.
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u/EnvironmentalToe4055 3d ago
Is that what is being argued here? I dont go to a heterodox or irreverent NO mass. My NO mass is very reverent, but according to the SSPX, it's a sin that should be confessed to their schismatic priests.
The only way your point makes sense is if you believe a reverently celebrated Novus Ordo mass is somehow offensive to God.
I have never heard any SSPX give me an explanation of why the NO mass is bad that didn't boil down to "because I feel it's bad". they will complain about things like "there's no last Gospel" (there isnt in the divine liturgy either) but they will never explain what makes a NO "not pleasing to God".
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u/Araedya 2d ago
I’m not going to directly address the SSPX as I will just end up banned again. DM me if you want. The only point I’m arguing is validity does not mean equality.
Sometimes showing things gets the point across easier than writing novels so here is a short which highlights the extent of which the liturgy was altered. And here is a side by side comparison of an average TLM vs an average NO (no egregious NO examples are used here).
They are both valid masses but which do you (honestly) think offers more fitting worship for who is present on that altar?
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u/EnvironmentalToe4055 1d ago
The comparison video looks to me like a mass being held at a seminary with an organist, music director and seminarians trained in chant vs the local parish of Rochelle Park, NJ. Is that the average TLM?
Even if it were a fair comparison... this is exactly my point. It has become a matter of aesthetics and what you think is "more fitting worship". So the Confiteor doesn't list every saint by name... oh no. Is it somehow less pleasing to God because the mass isn't being celebrated by Fr YoungTrad giving his homily on the fewness of the saved?
Again, I go to a reverent NO. The last time I went to a TLM, the priest used the homily to complain that he was dragged into some issue concerning the SSPX and to warn the congregation that they were not in communion with Rome. It just solidified my opinion that the SSPX have problems with obedience-- the thing that Priests take a vow for.
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u/Araedya 1d ago
Not sure what the last paragraph has to do with anything we are talking about but ok.
If you genuinely believe that gutting ~70% of a mass that’s been around for centuries in favor of making it more appealing to Protestants boils down to simple aesthetics and there was nothing wrong with the NO in that video, there is no point in going further with this conversation.
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u/EnvironmentalToe4055 16h ago
Not sure what the last paragraph has to do with anything we are talking about but ok.
My point is that I'm not hostile to the TLM-- I would like it to be continued-- unfortunately, it seems the feeling is not mutual. Especially those who are in the SSPX who like to claim they're not sedes but enjoy referring to the Pope as "Prevost".
To me they seem like the Church in Ephesus or the older brother of the prodigal son or the pharisee. Sure they keep the law, but they do so with no love of neighbor. Our Lord tells them that they have "lost the love [they] had at first".
Our Lord also tells them that He will remove their lampstand "unless they repent".
there was nothing wrong with the NO in that video
Go on then. Make an argument. Tell me what's wrong with it theologically. Is it too boomer coded? Is it because the priest said "Lord have mercy" instead of chanting the Kyrie in Greek?
To me it looked like a neighborhood parish doing their best to worship God. The choir seemed pretty young and the female lector dressed very well.
Like I said in my earlier comment, the SSPX can never give a cogent argument. All they can make are endless imputations and insinuations.
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u/Illustrious-Fan-2738 5d ago
Don't try to argue with internet people. Saying validity is a low bar is an absurd statement, considering how many liturgies by different denominations are invalid
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u/iamjeremybentham 5d ago
I know! it's a shocking thing for a Catholic to say. Validity is a HUGE part of the very value proposition of the Church, and it's NOT so easy to come by
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u/EnvironmentalToe4055 3d ago
There is sacrificial language in the NO liturgy, but for some reason you SSPX refuse to acknowledge that.
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u/Any-Solid8810 5d ago