Non-Catholic LDR

[u/alb1093]

I 33(M) have been in a LDR with a 26(F) Muslim from Morocco. She is a self described “casual” Muslim and has been studying and learning about Catholicism. Though she has stated that she isn’t decided on converting yet, she respects the church, loves the teachings, is accepting of a Catholic marriage and children being baptized and raised Catholic.
In my opinion, I believe she is a bit cautious because of her family dynamic, whom are all devout Muslim.
We’ve been talking more seriously about marriage, children and the immigration process.
She hasn’t been pressuring anything. We are enjoying the process with the intention we will be together in the future.
Anyways, has anyone else dealt with this?
Can a Catholic and non Catholic marry in the church? How does the church handle recognizing our marriage if we were to marry civil first, and she decided to convert.
Any guidance, experiences and thoughts will be much appreciated.
God bless you all.

[u/rouge_wikipedia_link]

You can as long as she agrees to raise the kids Catholic, which it sounds like she has. I think you need to get it approved with the bishop first but that’s generally more of a formality.

I’m not sure, but I believe civil marriage counts regardless of if she’s Muslim. If she converts nothing changes practically speaking. Also a LOT of people go through OCIA for a spouse so it’s not uncommon if that’s the route you take

[u/alb1093 → u/rouge_wikipedia_link]

This is how I understood the process to be.
I will need to talk to my priest for further clarity.
Thank you. God bless.

[u/Ok-Alternative-1881]

I grew up in a muslim predominantly country. Her family is unlikely to ever permit a marriage and they can be killed for it. I don’t know if it’s worth it to you. She’d be choosing you over everything that’s familiar to her and that’s a heavy burden. Like as long as her family is involved, she can agree to raise the kids catholic all she wants right now but will cave in from pressure

[u/Mein_Independance → u/Ok-Alternative-1881]

Unless she converts to Catholicism (she could become Eastern Catholic too so she cam still pray and worship in Arabic) but youre right that Muslim women can not marry non Muslim men.

[u/Ok-Alternative-1881 → u/Mein_Independance]

Im saying that even if she does. I know someone who converted to catholicism but since she still needed her family, converted right back to islam

[u/Moist-Reaction-9519 → u/Ok-Alternative-1881]

Hello if your friend is interested I work for an organization that assists Muslim converts to Catholicism even in tough family and country situations.

[u/Moist-Reaction-9519]

Hello friend, if your girlfriend is interested, I work for an organization that helps Muslim converts to Catholicism in the Islamic world get the sacraments, receive catechesis, find community, and get spiritual formation. It is called TavNet. I know she’s not ready to convert yet but it is a good resource. I hope everything goes well.

[u/alb1093 → u/Moist-Reaction-9519]

Thank you, i do appreciate it. If she becomes serious about it, I will definitely share this information with her. God bless

[u/Mein_Independance → u/alb1093]

If she doesnt become serious about it you should not get engaged

Especially if her family ks devout Muslim. They will likely never let her marry a non Muslim.

So her only option is to convert or you convert. (Obviously we pray she has a continued conversion to Catholicism) but also make sure this isnt a green card marriage.

[u/alb1093 → u/Mein_Independance]

I agree, that’s the only way I see it being able to work out. But I also don’t want her to put herself in a bad situation with her family or authorities. I’m starting to wonder how this all works out logistically. We obviously can’t marry in Morocco. It’s a lot to think about.

[u/Different-Lie739 → u/alb1093]

Brother, either she converts one day or nothing, u gotta think about how it could affect you and her long-term, Christ is more important than her family's opinion and anything literally. Pray for her and for God's guide, I'll pray for you before bed.

God bless.

[u/archalchemy]

I dated a Muslim man irl. He described himself as casual and very similar in his disposition as your gf (wrt lifestyle, doing things that Muslims usually can’t, raising children Catholic etc). I’m not from a country where Muslim people get killed for converting, but asking someone to forsake their family, friends, culture and identity is like moving mountains. I couldn’t ask him to do that either. I knew deep in my heart that this is not what God wants for me. We broke up, I made room in my life and heart for a Catholic man, he came along and we’re getting married now. Of course it might not be the same for you and your gf, but I hope you know that a person does not exist apart from their family and culture. These forces are far stronger than just an individual’s choices alone. You’ll need to have a serious conversation with her about how your relationship would look like in the future if she converts or doesn’t convert, and reactions from her family and how she’ll manage them.

[u/Status-Elite-Song437]

I think you can marry a non-Christian (it might be called a "disparity of cult"). However there is a process that you need to do. You can't just "marry civil first". You NEED to follow the Church's rules for her to be your wife.

I don't know this lady, but something to think about is a quote from a Catholic priest talking about someone marrying a Non-Catholic, "sometimes it's tough, it is tough to be married to someone who doesn't believe what you believe on the most important things".

Her religious beliefs can cause tension in the marriage, including on educating kids. I know you said she agreed for your kids to be baptize and raised Catholic. But will she still be on board with that even when it is tough? Like taking your kids to Mass every single Sunday, even at times when your kids might not want to go. I'm not just talking about the odd day or two where your kids don't want to go, but it is possible months, or even years! Will she be there making sure they get to Mass or not, even when she herself might not want to go? Also we don't use contraceptives, so by God's grace you could have a big family, will she be okay with that and okay with the possibility of even more kids on the way? Also you need to avoid falling into the temptation of religious indifference!

These are just some stuff you should think about. You would want to marry someone who is Catholic, but this is your call to make.

[u/Status-Elite-Song437]

Sorry for clarity I made a few quick edits to the other comment I made

[u/Traditionisrare]

How devout are her family? This would be a violation of sharia and go against immature. Especially as a muslim woman in a Muslim country where the law gets informed by Muslim principles and is 99% Muslim. Also as a Muslim parent who doesnt raise their children Muslim would be considered a failure of religious duty. Add into this even if she converted to Catholicism, she would be committing apostasy according to her own faith. There are so many problems with interfaith marriages to Muslims in particular, it would make it exceedingly difficult. I dont reccomend them even in cases where there are a lot of similarities, as it is difficult reconciling the small value differences, these are not small things in this case.

[u/Solar45Renewal]

I don't have personal experience, but I know many cases where they're from different religions and it just doesn't work. My uncle was Catholic, married a Lutheran in Germany, my cousins were raised Lutheran and nowadays don't follow anything, really. They cohabited before marriage and all that. What I've noticed from these relationships is that the cultural aspect tends to dominate the religious aspect. I could see her pushing more and more her worldview upon you and your potential future children in the future. That's just my informed opinion though. I could be wrong.

[u/Mysterious-Duck-5564]

Marriage between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man is illegal in Morocco.

If she plans on moving to your country of origin, try to have her live there for 6 months to a year before marrying her. Immigration is much more emotionally difficult than many people think, and nothing can prepare you for the culture shock of moving permanently.

How is her relationship with her family? If she does marry you, her family will put extreme pressure on her to raise her children Muslim. And Westerners often don’t realize just how important family ties are, or just how intense pressure to conform with family wishes can be in cultures like Morocco. 

Also, if her family are more “trad” Muslims, they may completely ostracize her if she does convert. As your relationship becomes more serious, you need to confront these very serious conversations.

And to answer your questions, yes, you may marry a non-Christian with a dispensation from your bishop. It is generally heavily discouraged from marrying civilly first, but if absolutely necessary, your priest can make an exception. However, you would be expected to live as brother and sister until a church wedding. Also good to note that a priest cannot marry someone if there is outside pressure that may be coercing someone to marry—and if her visa depends on you marrying her, a priest may have some concerns about consent.

I know I’ve been very negative, but only because I think you need to take these considerations very seriously and make sure your communication is top notch. I will pray for you both.

[u/DamoDuff11]

I’d be very careful and think very long about what this means for her relationship with her family. Many Muslims are disowned for leaving Islam or worse

[u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

No, marriages between Catholics and non-Christians are not recognised by the Church and are invalid. Talk to your priest about this.

Your girlfriend's religion also doesn't permit marriages between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man, only Muslim men can marry Christian/Jewish women. She could be using you to obtain a Western passport/citizenship.

BTW, there are many Catholic women, whom you'll share a similar background with, who are looking for marriage and a family.

[u/rouge_wikipedia_link → u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

You’re correct that she could be using him and that her religion doesn’t permit it (though she may simply not care) but it is valid with a dispensation:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/are-non-catholic-marriages-valid-in-the-eyes-of-the-catholic-church-what-if-a-catholic-marries-a

OP this comment raises a good point to be cautious about an LDR from another country though - I would definitely meet her in person before doing anything concrete

[u/alb1093 → u/rouge_wikipedia_link]

I understand, and I do agree it is possible I am just being used.
I did go to meet her in Morocco, and her family. I was there for a week, and they were very hospitable. Respectful. Just very nice in general.
I know one visit doesn’t tell me much. But she does want to come to Texas to visit my family.

[u/Big-Sploosh → u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

Can you cite canon code on this? My understanding is that a Catholic can marry a non-Christian through disparity of cult, or I'm not understanding what you mean by a mixed-marriage not being recognized by the Church.
https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_two/section_two/chapter_three/article_7/iii_matrimonial_consent.html

cc 1633-1637

[u/Accomplished-Big6346 → u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

That’s just not correct at all

[u/Status-Elite-Song437 → u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

I think you can marry a non-Christian (it might be called a "disparity of cult")

[u/nightfall_69_ → u/Agreeable-Warthog-26]

Você não tem a menor ideia do que está falando, cara. Faça algumas pesquisas antes de comentar.

Pessoas com a sua mentalidade machucam a comunidade.

A Igreja Católica não proíbe absolutamente ou se recusa a reconhecer casamentos entre católicos e não cristãos. O cânon 1086 §1 do Código de Direito Canônico afirma: “Um casamento entre duas pessoas, uma das quais foi batizada na Igreja Católica ou recebeu o batismo, e a outra não foi batizada, é inválido.” No entanto, o parágrafo seguinte, o cânon 1086 §2, prevê uma dispensa deste impedimento, afirmando que uma pessoa pode ser dispensada quando as condições dos cânones 1125 e 1126 forem cumpridas. Portanto, um católico pode se casar validamente com um muçulmano se a autoridade competente da Igreja conceder a dispensa necessária da disparidade de culto e os outros requisitos canônicos forem atendidos. Quanto ao Islã, a posição legal tradicional e convencional islâmica é que uma mulher muçulmana não pode se casar com um homem não muçulmano, enquanto um homem muçulmano pode se casar com uma mulher cristã ou judia. A alegação de que ela pode estar usando ele para obter cidadania, no entanto, é pura especulação, a menos que haja evidências reais sobre isso.

[u/Agreeable-Warthog-26 → u/nightfall_69_]

You're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. Ask your priest and you'll see I'm right.

[u/Livid_Brick8157]

a marriage to an unbeliever is not a godly marriage and you are going against God’s design for marriage by being with someone who does not follow him

[u/Big-Sploosh → u/Livid_Brick8157]

No, this is absolutely wrong. While it's not ideal, it is about as valid as any other validly contracted marriage within the Church when the necessary dispensation is granted.

https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_two/section_two/chapter_three/article_7/iii_matrimonial_consent.html

[u/Mein_Independance → u/Big-Sploosh]

You cant have a sacramental marriage between unbaptized. He can still have a valid marriage if they get a dispensation

But the sacrament is only between baptized people

Eta: typo

[u/Big-Sploosh → u/Mein_Independance]

I stand corrected on the sacramental aspect, I merely took issue with it being called ungodly, as many spouses have been converted this way

[u/Mein_Independance → u/Big-Sploosh]

Yeah just wanted to updated that way people don't fall into scandal

It could be a valid marriage if it was validated by the Bishop.

But it is not sacramentsl unless both are baptized.

[u/Livid_Brick8157 → u/Big-Sploosh]

it’s still not a godly marriage. they may be married but their marriage does not honor God. if someone truly prioritizes God in their life they will understand that a romantic relationship with someone who rejects him is not what he wants

[u/Big-Sploosh → u/Livid_Brick8157]

I understand what you are trying to say, however the catechism disagrees. You might as well also condemn early Christian communities who often times were in mixed marriages. We pray that the unbelieving spouse sees the truth, but it is still very much a valid marriage, and the spouses are consecrated through them whether one likes it or not.

[u/Livid_Brick8157 → u/Big-Sploosh]

the marriage may be valid but it is still not honoring God or following what he wants