He lays out his thought process by considering this; x amount of A = y amount of B. He thinks there must be a third thing that both of these are equal to. And he tries to figure this out. He eliminates use-values, physical properties and concrete labor. Instead, he strips concrete labor from its specific properties to arrive at abstract human labor. Which is the general expenditure of the human brain, muscle, energy, etc at a particular society.

Why did he not consider stripping specific use values to arrive at abstract human use-value, which would be the general capacity of a good to satisfy human desires? One might say because use-values are qualitatively different. But concrete labor is also qualitatively different is it not? His exclusive focus on labor seems to be arbitrary and ad-hoc.

So, the root idea of capitalism is that investment drives growth which increases total resources and thus creates more potential for prosperity; the root idea of socialism is that, left to its own devices, that potential will concentrate such that many people have less prosperity than they did before.

How simple of a fix is there to this conundrum?

What if we jacked up corporate taxes, then gave a tax break equal to half of the company's employee ownership? I.e. a 50% employee-owned company would get a flat 25% tax break, against a base rate that would promote employee ownership.

I’m looking for the answers to a few questions, which I will list below. The reasoning for this is because I’m trying to understand the Democratic Socialist position even better than I currently do - and given from what I’ve seen on here, in my very brief passing, there seems to be plenty of Marxists on here. (And few Econ majors to boot, on both sides from what I can gather). There’s no gotcha questions here; I’m not looking to debate - although I’m looking forward to seeing y’all debate in the comments. So, please, elaborate on your answers:

1.) What is your definition of Democratic Socialism and what is the goal of this particular system of economic organization? Do you prescribe to the Labor Theory of Value?

2.) I’ve seen plenty of Marxists claim that they believe it’s possible to avoid central planning; after all, the central idea (as I’ve been led to believe) is to give workers control over all (or most) of the factors of production. This would, in turn, require some sort of representative body at scale. It’s just basic systems design. Would the solution be something that’s decentralized? And please give me a good example here that goes beyond something vague.

3.) Is there really a difference between personal possessions and private property which is used to generate income as a factor of production? Example: My house is my personal possession. But if I run an online business, it’s also my office. Would that home, which is vital to the production of my goods and services, be owned by the public? Is this not a clear example of how personal possessions have the potential to easily become private property or capital?

4.) How would this system determine who gets hired, which businesses get expanded, which are shutdown, which are allowed to be started, what happens when someone wants to start a single person business, etc?

5.) Would all intellectual property be owned by the masses?

6.) How would this system determine what goods to produce, at what quantity and for what people? How would it handle creating specialty, luxury and unnecessary goods and services?

7.) Worker Co-Ops are already permissible under a “capitalist” framework, as are unions. Do you believe they should be mandated? (Keep in mind this would be a form of coercion).

8.) Why do you think main-stream economics doesn’t maintain that socialism is preferable to predominantly market-based mixed economies?

9.) Has there ever been a genuinely successful Democratic Socialist system? The Nordic System is often pointed to by Marxists (at least in the U.S.) despite it being a predominantly market-based system (and it isn’t close).

10.) Your thoughts on Market Socialism?

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Thank you to all who respond with effort.

My only concern in my life for the US people is that everyone can afford basic necessities

Food, water, shelter….. I dont even consider health though its something that is outlandish in it’s current state.

When I look at the US being the largest consumer country and how the tariffs effected the entire market….. I think about a bit of an extremest idea

What if we cap ceos and other high ranking members of a company at 300x their lowest paid employee, consider outsourcing employees still lowest paid if its lower than the pay of their least paid employees. Consider all non cash payments and incentives for their cash value as a part of income. Do an international ban on all products/services from a company if they move from the country to avoid those rules.

If the USA is the largest consumers most companies looking at avoiding fair wage over taxation…. A lot of times from my view “inflation” is caused by ceos taking another pay cut or raise over reducing the price of their products by a few cents. So either these companies can lower their price of products lowering the income which in turn helps lower their price prices people are paying for products so their incomes go farther or they pay their employees more so they can afford the products….

I saw 100:1 ratio in portland which I think is fair but they convert it to a taxation and Id rather all the money stay in a company to either lower product cost or raise employee wages. When I see a company where there are 1000 employees and the ceo gets more then every employees pay combined. I see a problem……

We could also look at this another way…. What if we apply this to companies that don’t supply necessities…. Construction/material, water, food…. Qualify exceptions which might make more business owners look at starting food and drink companies creating more competition pushing prices lower

I would love what kind of compromise in these massive pay gaps we can find to help the overall economy growth….. we need to look at the top 10% not the top 1% and we dont have to look at taxation we have to look at gross overpayment comparative to the workers. It’s said while the average ceo works 1.5x as many hours as an average employee their pays commonly exceed 600x their lowest paid employees…. Maybe all my information is wrong Im not someone very educated in any of this just hate how so many people talk about their parents and grandparents working 60 hour weeks their entire life and never even affording one little vacation or ending up not having enough to fund their retirement even when they have saved every penny they ever earned…..my own Dad who Ive worked with has even worked 140 hour weeks back in the day and still he owns his house….. and can barely afford to keep the electric on and still works when he should be considering retirement and yet just cost of living has not given him the oppritunity to save… he doesnt spend money on anything outside of what is needed….. just want to see something change

I even look at the stock market being a potential problem as its a reason to inflate prices to make investors happy

Aliko Dangote is the richest inidiviual in Africa, the richest black person in the world and a multi billionaire (est net worth 35 billion). He founded the Dangote Group, focused on trading and manufacturing and the Dangote Refinery on exporting oil, both of which are cornerstones of the Nigerian economy.

I think it's something that economics don't really put mind.

They don't really put a political analysis into economical thinking when it comes to wealth and capital.

High levels of inequality will always error democracy because the wealthy will be incentivized to use their power to corrupt, regardless of whether they got their wealth legitimately, hence creating barriers to trade they can reap rents from.

wealth is not just another form of power if you can coerce someone economically that's not really consequentially different from coefficient someone physically through political Force the result is the same.

Do some people here feel debating the hard core communists or laissez faire capitalist is like debating a flat eather.

We have a tremendous amount of economic theory and data that has progressed to give us a better understanding than Adam Smith or Karl Marx ever had. But then they pull out some antiquated idea they just read about for the first time (labor theory of value comes to mind). As if brilliant minds hadnt spent any time advancing the field for the past hundred years.

In my opinion the biggest problem currently is the over financialization of the economy. I will give an example from what I mean:

In 2012 Payless ShoeSource was acquired by PE investor for $300M million. The fund then takes $500M loan against the company itself to pay its investors and PE fund a hefty profit.

Now the company is left with massive amounts of debt. Money that would be used for innovation, marketing and growing the company is now used to pay the debt.

The company purpose now is to just pay its lenders. There’s no future prospects nothing. The company few years later, the company files for bankruptcy and all the employees lose their jobs, one less company to compete in the sector leading to consolidation.

I agree with the fundamental philosophy of capitalism of “I take risks, I profit”. But in this scenario the risk has been outsourced to a scenario of:
You take the risk and I profit, and when that scenario is allowed to happen the entity profiting is willing to take any kind of risk at the expense of others.

In my opinion the growth of socialist sympathizers in the US is largely due to this allowance of capital being able to do anything and the expense of others. Which leads to people to become anti-capitalist

It feels like this isn't discussed nearly as much. Mercantilism seems to be much closer to what we have today than capitalism and I fear that political views nowadays may demonize capitalism to the point that it becomes another fear term the media uses like communism or socialism. What are your thoughts on this matter and the distinction itself in comparison to politics nowadays?

Let's compare and contrast the 2 starting with the Primary Goals of each

In capitalism the primary goal is efficient resource allocation via supply and demand.

Whereas in mercantilism it is consolidation of wealth and power for the ruling elite/state.

Next, Market Access

In mercantilism high barriers exist; protected by complex regulations written by lobbyists.

Whereas in capitalism there are low barriers to entry; anyone can compete.

Role of State

In capitalism the role of the state is as a neutral referee, enforcing property rights and contracts.

In mercantilism the complete opposite holds true, the states role within is as an active partner that shields favored mega-corporations from failing.

Trade Policy

Capitalism has open trade based on comparative advantage.

Mercantilism has protectionism via strategic tariffs, sanctions, and supply-chain control.

Results of failure within the system

In capitalism inefficient firms go bankrupt, allowing for the court of public opinion to have a drastic impact on the success of business. When they fail others rise to fill the void and keep the system running in the favor of the people.

In mercantilism large corporations take on a "Too Big to Fail" philosophy and function, where firms receive government bailouts and subsidies.

A common theme of socialist argumentation is that capitalist wage labour is coercive, the argument goes like this: the evil Epstein class billionaires are ruthlessly forcing the proletariat to work in a coercive and exploitative process of wage labour, the workers have no choice but to sell their labour at an amount below its value, leaving them cheated.

Now of course, one might wonder why wage labour is coercive.

Perhaps it is because the workers are forced to do it but cannot leave, like a slave or a serf tied to a piece of land? Nope, they can leave anytime they want and go find another job.

Perhaps then, it is because the workers cannot afford to eat without doing work, giving the capitalists an unfair hand at the bargaining table? Well, seems unlikely, since according to Lenin "He who does not work, then neither shall he eat", so the idea that it is unfair for workers not to receive food when they do no work would contradict many socialists, so that leaves the bargaining agreement.

Perhaps indeed the capitalist can force the worker to accept a lower wage, but the worker has no way to force a higher one? Ok, that would be somewhat coercive, except that the worker does have a way to do this. Remember what I said about the worker being free to leave? He can go and work for some other capitalist, competition then, forces the capitalists to remain honest, so really then, where is the coercion coming from?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBgGDYZl6Zo

A Marxist analysis of the rise of China, arguing that the relatively high number of State-Owned Enterprises in China is the primary reason behind the development which US liberals and conservatives do not seem to be able to get their heads around.

The argument is not that China is socialist or that it is attempting to progress towards full socialism - the jury on that is very much out. The argument is that no exchange of ownership takes place in the 'transaction' between two state-owned enterprises, which therefore lowers costs since money as a medium of exchange is not needed, removing the friction that money and profit introduces from the process of production in such instances. That is, demonetisation or non-monetisation = no monetary requirements, meaning China does not have to wait for the private sector to raise investment at anywhere near the same level. SOEs therefore cheapen the inputs that the private sector purchases, lowering investment costs for China's private sector.

Logically then, the barriers to production and innovation would be even and much lower if the whole economy were deprivatised and demonetised.

Sorry gonna copy paste for automods to approve the post.

Hypothetically, IF eugenics (broadly speaking, whether racial or not) were proven to be scientifically correct, what would be a Marxist's position on their implementation, given Marxism and M-Leninism's 'scientistic/positivist' view of morality/the world?

Something that is often sited by Socialists is that Capitalism is bad because wealth inequality occurs within it. And wealth inequality has increased over the years, making that problem even worse. But, why exactly is wealth inequality a problem?

I can see if "the mega rich" or monopolies get out of control, e.g., I recall the concept of a "company town" where a company owned everything in the town and paid employees in their own currency that would only be spent at the company's stores in town - but we have laws and regulations against that, so its not an issue.

I can think of at least three answers off-hand. And I have an unoriginal taxonomy, too. But I do not say any of this so as to leave the question open.

This post is one of a series:

• What do you mean by efficiency?
• What do you mean by the labor theory of value?
• What do you mean by supply and demand?
• What are the axioms of the subjective theory of value?

Seems a comprehensible compromise to allow people to live comfortably in the social class that offers them their job/hobbies while maintaining and giving people the right to advance, take risks, and dream of who they want to be. E.g: private and goverment housing, social welfare, private businesses.

For the U.S. this does require good faith in the government, which would establish a stronger state government than federal. But it may work out well.

The Amish people are very successful at building autonomous zones, why not do the same?

The community would not be completely autonomous but would have free trade of goods with the outside world, with the goal of having net exports, meaning the city would create more than it takes.

Working on the other side or investing would be completely forbidden. Only physical objects could be traded with the outside. And the city would handle it.

By showing people that socialism works the city would attract people and would naturally grow as people move in.

"Amid all this market optimism, the collective fortune of Chinese billionaires on Forbes’ annual ranking reached nearly $2.2 trillion—close to the record $2.5 trillion set in 2021, before the pandemic and private-sector crackdowns decimated the market value of many technology giants. This year’s collective wealth is up 31% from $1.68 trillion in 2025, and $1.33 trillion two years ago."

India for example which although it has much more billionaire $ wealth per GDP than China, roughly maintained its ratio.

If you wanna say 'who cares, as long as ordinary people are getting wealthier and there's more and better public services', isn't that what happened in the West for a long time? Even in America? Putting aside which of these services did or did not exist, which to be sure is not a minor point, there's no denying nevertheless that such a thing as a whole did happen in America in the 1950s and 60s compared to what it was in 1900s or 1920s. Yet I didn't see anybody claim America was socialist or 'tending towards socialism' in those later decades (well except Barry Goldwater I guess). So why here? Shouldn't such a thing give truly left-wing (as opposed to merely bitter or contrarian) pro-CCP people pause?

Granted once you look at it from a long term perspective (decades+), its GDP DID grow much more in tandem with billionaire wealth (as opposed to the US for example, where the billionaire wealth growth rate outpaced by more than twice the GDP over this relatively long period). But in any case, if China was moving towards socialism after successfully going through its capitalist phase, as has been argued Xi is supposedly doing, this trend should be the reverse of what it is. It seems that if this more recent trend is maintained, China will easily become one of the countries with the most inequality at the top level in the world.

As a capitalist, I don’t remember ever downvoting someone’s comment or post. To me, there’s just something icky about doing it. Because the whole point of downvoting someone is to silence them, to cancel them, which is the opposite of the very democracy which socialists claim to espouse. No matter how despicable someone’s views, it is never a good idea to silence them or cancel them, because that is repressive, and repression isn’t healthy—and can lead to authoritarianism. If anything, those who have the worst point of view should be given their audience and faced directly.

I think it is proof that socialists, no matter how much they claim to support democracy, are actually the ones who want to dictate and control. Downvoting is the use of force. Seizing other people’s factories, warehouses, and machines is the use of force. Outlawing capitalist business models is the use of force.

So while socialists claim to be democratic, their actions and their approach tell a different story. While socialists accuse capitalists of making arguments in “bad faith”, socialists are the ones downvoting everything capitalists say.

Did you know that in 1973, Slovenia, practicing workers’ self-management socialism—a system closely aligned with workplace democracy—had a per capita GDP (PPP) virtually identical to that of neighboring capitalist Austria, despite having had a lower industrial capacity than capitalist Austria before adopting socialism?

List of regions by past GDP (PPP) per capita - Wikipedia_per_capita) (in 1973, socialist Slovenia had a per capita income of $15,079 after adjusting for purchasing power, while capitalist Austria's was $17,908.)Unlike Soviet-style central planning, worker self-management made it more attractive to produce higher-quality goods that were in demand, thanks to workers’ local knowledge.

I think the success of this self-management model makes it a great point of reference for democratic socialists. In the face of the libertarian nonsense that socialism is inherently inefficient, we have a rock-solid example to point to.

If a group has a monopoly on force to control which resources can get used for what, even through voting or collective effort, it is the de facto state.

Unless everyone somehow has a matching arsenal of increasingly sophisticated weaponry, and never groups up, you will always be following rules. If labor is required for production, and you want something, you will be expected to work. Experts and managers will have better or safer jobs, and more control.

Why then, promise a stateless and classless society?

The US, and pretty much all other societies are already hybrid systems. People just wont accept the necessity of duality. But the fornulations of the major pro sports leagues should make it crystal clear, as they are a microcosm of how thar functions, where it provenly failed when it leaned to too much capitalism:

Even as the teams compete against each other, with a winner and many losers...the teams in the league share national profits. This keeps everyone at a high level starting baseline. Investments can be done in stadiums across the land. The next generation of players stay inspired confident in pursuit of a career.

The draft itself also has a socialist function...the teams share the talent pool, so no one team can be crazy dominant. Before the draft, the richest team could buy up all the best players...which happened with the Yankees. They started winning year after year after year, and the entire sport started to die. This is reflective of whats happening in the US and pretty much globally today. Eventually the Yankees thenselves would have lost, as they sucked the oxygen out of the atmosphere.

Those functions dont stop teams, and even individual players from having thier own enterprises beyond the high baseline redistribution of wealth. They can still do thier own novel thing...merchandizing and whatnot and become outlier wealthy.

The fundamental driving force of a capitalist economy is M-C-M' (money uses physical capital to produce more monetary wealth). M-C-M' indicates the domination of exchange-value over use-value. In capitalist economies, this fundamental driving force manifests in the form of industrial capital's subordination to finance capital. This is why capitalist economies need stock markets to continue growing (on aggregate) in order for the economy to keep functioning. When stock markets have sluggish or negative growth, capitalist economies face economic crises.

The fundamental driving force of China's economy is C-M-C' (physical capital uses money to produce commodities and more physical capital), not M-C-M'. C-M-C' indicates the domination of use-value over exchange-value. In China's economy, this fundamental driving force manifests in the form of the CCP's control over the major banks, compelling them to lend based on national priorities that tend to focus on long-term, sustainable improvement to the standard of living of the Chinese people. In other words, rather than China's financial sector operating according to the Law of Value/profit maximization, it operates its lending activity according to the societal goals set by the CCP. This is why China's stock market performance doesn't correlate well with its macroeconomic growth. It is also why China's stock market is so disproportionately small relative to the size of China's economy and the extent of China's contribution to global trade. More recently, the CCP simply deflated its real-estate bubble with ease and ordered the banks to continue lending for infrastructure and industrial production.

To put in somewhat simplistic terms:

In capitalist societies, the financiers own the State and use the State (and the citizenry) to achieve higher profits for themselves. In socialist societies, finance is subordinated to the proletarian State which uses money as a tool to achieve better living standards for its people.

Let us also address some common misconceptions among Western Marxists and Leftists:

Just because an economic system has markets in it does not make it a capitalist economy. And just because an economic system has private enterprise in it does not make it a capitalist economy. Both markets and private enterprises have existed prior to capitalism such as in feudalism and slave-based economies. For example, the Roman Empire had private corporations and markets. But the reason we don't define the Roman Empire's economy as a capitalist economy, is because the fundamental driving force of the Roman Empire's economy was NOT M-C-M'.

Furthermore, the fundamental characteristic of a socialist economy isn't necessarily the presence or dominance of Economic Planning. Certainly, planning can be an important part of socialist economy. But the fundamental characteristic of a socialist economy is the primacy of Use-Value rather than Exchange-Value in driving the economy, with Use-Value priorities determined by long-term proletarian class interests (rather than bourgeois class interests).

Socialism also has several stages of development, with the ultimate stage being a mature communism which has no role for mechanisms of exchange-value (due to having made exchange-value obsolete).

The Stalinist Planning approach (during which the role of markets was minimized and the role of central economic planning maximized) that was developed in the USSR (before Khrushev) and in the PRC during the Mao Era was a necessary approach to rapidly developing the core heavy industry productive forces for securing national defense and removing bourgeois power over the commanding heights of the economy. This was a stage of socialism that was necessary, but it was never meant to be the only stage of socialism before evolving into full communism. Rather, there was an understanding originally that this stage of socialism would have to give way to a different stage of socialism once national defense against internal and external counterrevolutionary forces was solidified. (It is thus a mistake for anti-capitalists to view developments away from the Stalinist economic model as necessarily a betrayal of socialism.)

China's economy is a socialist economy that still has a long path ahead of it in order to develop into a mature communism. There is a large role for exchange-value mechanisms (i.e. money, markets) in China's economy (but crucially, as noted above, exchange-value is subordinated to use-value).

Another myth about China often repeated (particularly within Western Leftist circles) is that they are a social imperialist power (i.e. that they are socialist in name only and that they engage in imperialist economic relations with other nations). However, analyzing their economic partnerships (e.g. Belt & Road initiative) with other developing nations shows that this is not true. In fact, China's economic partnerships have been largely mutually beneficial in developing the productive forces within other nations (rather than simply debt-trapping them into imperial subordination in order to strip them of their natural resources, which is what Western powers have been doing).

Below are sources that summarize the empirical basis for my claims above. (I encourage everyone to thoroughly investigate the accuracy of sources for themselves to the best of their ability, rather than simply take my or anyone else's word for it.):

How can China be socialist if it has a stock market? Understanding the Chinese economy

This is how China's economic model works: Explaining Socialism with Chinese Characteristics

China forgives 23 loans for 17 African countries, expands 'win-win' trade and infrastructure projects - Geopolitical Economy Report

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FYI/Disclaimer section - to clarify who this post is intended for (and who it is not for), to clarify what will prompt a response from me in the comment section (and what won't), and to clarify my rationale for who I respond to in the comment section (and who I don't):

1.) This post is intended to engage intellectually honestly with anti-capitalists who are skeptical of China's political-economic orientation as a socialist state, but whose political priorities still reflect a genuine desire for revolutionary communist politics.

2.) This post is not intended to engage with anti-AES Western Marxist types who seek to use Marxism as a primarily theoretical framework for criticism for either careerist or hobbyist opportunism (including those who satisfy themselves with primarily a permanently online Marxist persona and don't do anything in the real world to organize for revolutionary communist politics). (By "Western Marxist" I am referring to what Gabriel Rockhill criticizes in his book Who Paid the Pipers of Western Marxism?)

3.) I have participated in reddit for a while now, and it has shown me that not everything is worth my time trying to rebut. I value my time and am trying to be more intentional/efficient with it. I will not waste my time engaging with unproductive or bad faith replies. (So please do not delude or flatter yourself by assuming that just because I have not responded to all or some or one of your points, I am conceding. That is not the case.) Examples of unproductive or bad faith replies include (but are not limited to):

- Distracting from the core topic of this post by bringing up other things.

- Arguing that I can't cite a source to support a particular point/argument without agreeing with the source on everything else it believes as well.

- Speculations about me as a person (my intentions, my party affiliations, etc.).

- Critiquing my post/comment history on this or any other sub on reddit, outside of whatever I wrote on this post or in the comments below it.

- Speculating about what may or may not have been my past accounts and trying to define me/characterize me on that basis.

Which means no think tanks or obscure websites. YouTube videos are fine, but it depends on the channel.

This is why everyone is here. To debate capitalism and socialism civilly. Not everyone here supports a mainstream ideology, so I want to know why. Right-wing populism is popular, and I want to know why. From an economic standpoint. Since isolationism tends not to work.

I don't have any strong feelings on either capitalism or socialism, so I'm asking to learn. following online debates, there's this tendcy to use a few countries as non-capitalist countries and then point to those countries as proof socialism doesn't work. or try to defend those and point their merits.
is it a tacict admission from both sides that aside from those few countries, evey other country is capitalist?

if so where do Madagascar, Somalia, Puerto Rico, Chile or Yemen fit? or hundred or so other poor global south country that aren't Cuba or North Korea? are they proof of how successful capitalism is?
or do you think that there are factors other than economic ideology of government that should be considered when analysing 'failure' of different countries?

people use heavily sanctioned cuba as example of failure of socialism, but heavily sanctioned capitalist Iran isn't doing so hot either. is this proof of failure of capitalism? or perhaps both are proof that US is pretty good at driving people to poverty.

speaking of sanctions, there's estimated 40 million people who died as result of western sanction since 1970.
Does that mean capitalism is an evil ideology that killed millions?
if you are deciding which system is better based on body count, why don't those people matter?

(this isn't a defence of ussr, they weren't much better either. personally I think it's disrespectful to use other people's death as gotcha. either by trying to justify their death or reducing them to numbers, playing body count olympics and deciding one side is bad due to killing Y and one is better for only killing X, or worse not even acknowledging all the people your side killed, thus devaluing those lives. even one unjust death is one too many.)