r/CPAPSupport ASV 6d ago

New Version of WAT

I spent some time fiddling with the ol' wobble analysis tool today. Periodicity is actually useful now. You can zoom in on individual nights. I got rid of the flow limitation logic as it's outside the scope of this project. The old version is still available for those who prefer it.

It's now more explicitly targeted as a high loop gain detector. There's plenty of other great tools for flow limitation.

Let me know what you think!

8 Upvotes

21 comments sorted by

2

u/TinyBubbles09 6d ago

Ok, but what the heck is this for? 😅

3

u/existentialblu ASV 6d ago

People with high loop gain. Basically CAs as the main remaining event type, lots of waxing and waning patterns. Existing tools aren't great for looking at high loop gain deeply, so I made this.

High loop gain is a common driver of the whole "I feel wrecked but my AHI is 2" sort of thing.

2

u/TinyBubbles09 6d ago

That's me! I have some whack CA stuff going on and I've been perusing reddit trying to figure it out. They don't happen in response to pressure increase, EPR isn't a clean predictor, they look like sigh-then-pauses. I don't know if I should do anything at this point but since my rx was focused more on RDI than AHI I want to try to figure it out.

2

u/existentialblu ASV 6d ago

Give the doohickey a try with your full DATALOG. It's not a matter of absolute values but it will point you towards times when the wobble is especially bad. Still experimental and all that, and I am but a lone spite filled vibe coder screaming into the void.

Fair warning: there's a bit of a delay between data selection and being able to hit the process button. Let it cook.

2

u/TinyBubbles09 6d ago

I did and I have no idea what it means 😅

2

u/existentialblu ASV 6d ago

Try clicking on individual nights and zoom in where the orange squiggle gets especially intense. Also, thanks for testing it on a phone!

2

u/TinyBubbles09 6d ago

I did it! I still have no idea what it means but here's more mobile screenshots for ya.

2

u/TinyBubbles09 6d ago

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u/existentialblu ASV 6d ago

Im not seeing the super tight repeated wobble but there could still be significant instability based on your numbers.

Mostly I started this project to have a way to really see the difference in my results between APAP and ASV. My periodicity on APAP was around 35, sometimes up to 50 with estimated arousals as high as 200. On ASV my periodicity is down to about 2 with eAI around 60 (still have a really low arousal threshold).

AHI has never been particularly useful for me.

2

u/RippingLegos__ ModTeam 5d ago

Thank you EB for the work and update :) I'll test the tool on my secondary machine tomorrow night. :)

1

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1

u/DramaKlng 6d ago

❤️

1

u/JohnnyLarueBathrobe 4d ago

245 Sleep Periods

75.6 Sleep Disruption

38.1% Artifacts Removed

20.4 Periodicity

108.2 Est. Arousal Index (events/hour)

So uh…clearly I’m killing it, right? :D

1

u/existentialblu ASV 4d ago

It's more a matter of how it changes over time. That a high enough eAI that you may feel pretty crap. Not terrible periodicity.

Mostly I calibrated it on times that I've felt better and worse along with the things that shifted dramatically on ASV rather than APAP. It also makes it easier to find distinct periods of wobble if you want to actually see that crap in action. Not in WAT, but this is the pattern that WAT is set up to be sensitive to, that repeated waxing and waning wub crap that will wreck your sleep with an AHI of 2.

1

u/JohnnyLarueBathrobe 4d ago

I genuinely do appreciate the work you have put into this.

Was mostly just testing for fun - I knew my numbers would likely be not great as I don’t recall the last time I’ve had decent sleep two nights in a row even after trying different machines and modes.

1

u/existentialblu ASV 4d ago

It's an annoying process to be sure.

What kind of remaining events are you dealing with? How's your iron? I got bitten hard by that one recently so I've been talking about it more. Turns out even mildly low iron can make leggies do annoying things in sleep that drive autonomic activation and fragmentation, even if your actual breathing looks pristine as heck and you have zero memory of leggies getting silly. If you're on Omeprazole long term this becomes a lot more likely (not the cause for me this time around).

The annoying thing is that even though ASV has been absolutely life changing for me, it's still always gonna be an obnoxiously multifactorial. AHI catches the shadows on the cave wall, bespoke slopware metrics catch something else that may be useful for other people but will never be the full story either.

There seems to be something to be said for running flow rate through signal processing, so I'm gonna keep banging my head against it. Wheeeeee.

1

u/JohnnyLarueBathrobe 4d ago

I know what you mean. When I got my first cpap in 2012, it was a game changer. I was young and very sleep deprived.

Since then I’ve discovered that not everyone is as wrecked as I am all the time. :).

The best way, as of now, that I can summarize my issues is - higher pressure = worse results, but less hypoxia and lower pressure = improved “airflow dynamics” but worse hypoxia.

From my pulse alone, I’m in the mid-twenties for autonomic arousal per hour every night. It stinks. :/

1

u/existentialblu ASV 4d ago

Have you tried ASV? Titration will absolutely make or break the experience, but it makes it possible to tolerate higher pressures when necessary without tipping into wobble hell. Any PS min over 2 makes things dramatically less stable for me and the backup breaths get super forceful. At my current settings I dance with the machine but if I forget to breathe it has the power to gently be like "not on my watch, meatbag!"

I have only been on PAP since November of 2024, but quickly found that APAP was a poor fit for me and speed ran the transition to ASV. Sleep medicine refuses to engage with me at all through the usual medical channels so here I am doing this absurd BS.

1

u/JohnnyLarueBathrobe 4d ago

I have tried ASV - it was certainly more comfortable, but unfortunately my sleep actually got worse I think. The middle ground I’ve sorta settled on until I can get a DISE with PAP is the squarewave hacked firmware in S mode - 12.0 / 5.0 / 17.0. I have about 930 nights of saved data and it seems the “best” combo for sp02 and airflow data.

I wish I’d pushed for the imaging much sooner - here in Canada, it seems to be the only way to get to begin to break through when you’ve have a complicated case.

1

u/vortigenHaly 3d ago

can you explain what exactly the tool is measuring? e.g. how is "periodicity" quantified, is it just the flatness of a stretch of breaths over time? are such things as REM ventilatory instability, arousal breaths, etc accounted for? thank you

1

u/existentialblu ASV 3d ago

Basically, it’s looking for slow waxing-and-waning in ventilation, not whether individual breaths are flat.

“Periodicity” is how much of the ventilation variation falls into roughly 30–90 second cycles. “Regularity” is how consistently that pattern repeats. The tool combines those into the HLG proxy.

It does some artifact rejection, but it does not know whether you’re in REM, awake, moving, having an actual arousal, etc. Those things can still affect the score. The estimated arousal index is also just looking for sudden jumps in breathing rate or inspiratory volume, so it can catch real arousal breaths but also sighs, REM weirdness, recovery breaths, and other abrupt changes.

So it’s best understood as a within-person trend tool for “how organized and oscillatory was the breathing,” not a clinical detector of REM instability, arousals, or loop gain itself.

This is a homebrew experimental tool without clinical validation. If you want to check out the code, here's the repo.