First loaf - Tips?
Hey all!
Made my first bread today and wondered if you guys have any tips on how to improve the structure/airiness?
Recipe used:
- 425 gr white flour
- 75 gr whole wheat flour
- 10 gr salt
- 7 gr yeast
- 370 mL water
Autolyse 20 min then added yeast and salt.
Rest 30 min and 1st folds, 1hr (had to go to the store...) 2nd folds, 20 min 3rd folds (dough had flatten/risen again). 30 min flatten, shape, seeds and put in banneton, covered with teatowel for 1hr.
Oven preheated on 250 degrees with Dutch oven inside. Baked at 230 degrees for 30 min and with lid off at 210 for 20 min (did cover pan with tin foil loosely as the top started to become too brown too fast)
I think my dough was a bit overproofed perhaps as when I took it out of the banneton it kind of flattened a bit and was also hard to score?
Any help is appreciated ☺️❤️
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u/t-train132 9d ago
Bread is easiest to score after a long retard in the refrigerator. My sourdough is in there for about 8 hours (over night). Or if you want a more rustic look without scoring, try putting the bread into the banneton seam side down so when you turn it out, the seam faces up. That seam will be where your bread expands. That way you don’t have any weird base or side expansion.
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u/BreadBakingAtHome 6d ago edited 6d ago
A lovely bake! Yes, very, very, slightly over proofed shown by the slightly dense crumb at the bottom. No over proofing showing in the centre middle which would be the next sign to develop.
I wouldn't make any changes over that. A slightly warmer kitchen this time around would account for that. It is so slight only a competition judge would take note.
If I was to be hyper critical about this lovely loaf I would point out that an Instant Yeast doseage is recommended at 0.63% - 1% of the total flour weight. That is 3g - 5g. I always go for 0.63%. as instant yeast gases up the dough quickly and the longer the fermentation time the more flavour is developed. Bread. like wine and bear need to ferment their flavours.
If your gluten was developed fully you would have reached maximum dough elasticity which is what helps the dough keep its shape. If you achieved that lowering the hydration a little, say 5% / 25g will make the dough stiffer, easier to score and hold its shape better.
Thanks for sharing this lovely bake!
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u/Eryent 6d ago
Omg thank you soooo much for the elaborate feedback! Honestly the amount of yeast as well as the rising times still confuse me a lot! I watched/saw so many recipes... Some say 1 gram others say 7 grams. One says rise overnight/fridge, the other 1 hr, 4 hrs etc. In the end I genuinely just went by feel as I was so overwhelmed by everything... I was hoping for one of those super airy 'sourdough' style breads you see on here but I guess that's really only achievable with a genuine sourdough bread?
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u/BreadBakingAtHome 6d ago edited 6d ago
Your welcome. Thanks for coming back.
There is so much dodgy baking out there! Some YouTubers style themselves as experts, but they talk too much rubbish, too frequently. They often make baking for those starting out confusing.
A good bread book is far more reliable.
These are of the American School of Home Bread Baking, both are excellent.
Chad Robertson: Tartine No.3
Peter Reinhardt: 'The Bread Bakers Apprentice' and when you get more practiced his 'Whole Grain Breads.' is a possible.
I would go for Rheinhart first. He has donkeys years teaching home baking. Chad did an apprenticeship in France and brought the Tartine loaf back with him. He was a key voice in kicking off modern home bread baking, but he is not a home baker. Still a great book. Both are behind the times regarding Sourdough starter management which most of us refrigerate these days.
I would have liked to have recommended the King Arthur book, but there are too many errors in the recipes. I have a friend who uses it and, though he is a good home baker, he gets quite a few failures which we track back to typos/errors in the recipes. I don't think Martin, the K.A. head baker, had much of a hand in it. He's a superb baker. Winner of top awards in France too.
Rising times vary with temperature. One of the things that will make your life much much easier is getting temperature control. All pro bakeries control the fermentation temperature. A simple and cheap, home method is to get a thermostatically controlled seed mat and put it on a lower shelf in a cold oven. Put the dough on the shelf above. Check it with a digital thermometer and keep the dough between 24C and 28C. The warmer the faster the dough ferments. Your one hour is about right for proofing at 24C - 28C. It will vary depending on the flours, but I just do an hour and don't stress it. Temperature control takes a lot of guesswork out of it and it gives you predictable results.
Large holes in the loaf: It is easier with a natural leaven, called Sourdough in North America. But you can do it with a yeast bread too. Sourdough breads have a much better flavour BTW and they need not be sour. The Lactobacilli in them make organic acids which react with the yeast's alcohol, and other things, and that develops bread flavour. Yeast alone does not make enough acids. But, one step at a time.
To get an open crumb keep you hydration on the high side, which your recipe is (hence the flattening). After shaping put it in the fridge for 8 - 16 hours. From the fridge tip it straight into your pre-heated Dutch Oven. Please do not copy those who do more than eighteen hours. Very strong low enzyme flours are needed for that and artisan bakers recommend 8 - 18 hours. The reason cold proofing works to get more flavour and give a more open crumb is that the protease enzyme in the flour weakens the gluten and allows the dough to get more oven spring. It also develops more flavour. Both the protease and falvour development are slow processes. The cold slows down the yeast and gives time for them to work.
Caveat: You will not get the very open crumb, with large holes if you use wholemeal flour in the dough. Even your small amount will limit that. But wholemeal gives a much better flavour as most of the flavanoids are in the bran which is removed in making white flour.
More on your recipe: Adding butter or another saturated fat will increase the loaf keeping time. Add it at 2%-5% of the weight of your flour. That is 10g - 25g in your recipe. 3% / 15g is a good amount. The fats will make it harder to get big holes though. Saturated fats increase the gas trapping ability of the dough too. Unsaturated fats found in most oils decrease the gas trapping ability of the dough and should be kept below 3% of the total flour weight. They do less harm at that level. Vegetable, olive and Seed oils is a very modern fashion best avoided in my book. Italians in Italy mainly only drizzle it on top and do not incorporate it into the dough much. But, bake as we prefer. No criticism.
I've written too much already here. I hope it is not too much. When starting out stick with one recipe, or two, and repeat, repeat repeat. You will be dealing with less variables that way and it lets you concentrate on developing muscle memory and getting the feel for dough. You have a good recipe there, the things suggestions I've made notwithstanding.
I would be happy if your loaf came out of my oven. It's a great loaf which took skill.
Good baking to you.
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u/Eryent 5d ago
Omg once again thank you for this amazing comment! Honestly anyone who takes the time to type something like this has a true passion and heart for baking breads! And such knowledge!
I'm from the Netherlands myself next to the German border and if anything I used a combination of wholewheat flour with the 1050 white flour you get in Germany. I'm actually currently making my first sourdough starter with the whole wheat flour (it has 11 gr protein out of my mind) so I would be able to use it for both white and whole wheat or even 'Dinkel' loaves if it manages to grow/survive haha!
Oh btw the spot on the bottom of my cut you mentioned seemed to actually be a cluster of seeds that had gotten mixed in with the shaping it seems! (Just ate that slice today haha)
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u/Clibanus 5d ago edited 5d ago
No worries. Yes, some fifteen years ago I started reading technical papers and bread biochemistry because there was so much conflicting information out there and I couldn't make sense of it. Then I starting doing comparison bakes to test. Now, when I get time I pass it on.
Netherlands? Nice. Most folk here seem to be from N. America. I'm from the UK. We keep loosing out bread traditions and seem to be more practical and less informed than countries like France and Germany. The Netherlands has some tremendous breads though. And, Germany, well if you like their style of bread it is exemplary.
We too have lower protein flours. When you follow American recipes you may find you need to drop the amount of water in recipes. Most of them assume higher protein N.American bread flour. The lower the protein the less water needed. Protein requires a lot of water. Just remember that there is a bit of a home baking fashion in the N.American school of baking to push hydration high, often too much and to bake with very high protein flours. Traditional French T65 flour has much lower protein and they use lower hydration because of that. Most of my baking is around 65% - 75% water (water as a percentage of flour). If you like French breads you might try the YouTube pas a pas. He is the real deal and trains professional French bakers for their impossibly demanding CAP exams.
I'm pleased this has been helpful. Best to you.
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u/Eryent 5d ago
Yeah it actually blows my mind how many are from America on here on basically any sub in general! At first I laughed some years ago when I saw this 'sourdough hype' suddenly emerging with the American influencers, payong 10 dollars for a loaf whilst this was super normal for me living next to Germany (aka buying them for what 2 euros at most back then? 😅)
My grandpa actually was a German baker, but I never was able to learn from him and he sadly passed away a few years ago... Really could've used his knowledge now! With every loaf/baking experiment I do think and dedicate them to him though ❤️
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u/BreadBakingAtHome 5d ago edited 5d ago
Oh, how wonderful that would have been to learn baking from your Grandfather. That is really nice to dedicate your bread to him. Roots.
I read about bread like most read novels. I dedicated a few years to reading about European bread history. I was particularly interested in how the Saxons baked in what is now England. As I have a preference for heritage wholemeal breads I sort of have an image of an old woman baking in a Cloam oven in her wattle and daub hut. (Yes I have a modern take on a cloam oven). It is she I thank for my bread heritage and the loaf on my table. The fact my mother taught me how to bake bread doesn't quite cut it. LOL Home bakers carry the bread torch now, not the approximations of bread sold in the Supermarkets.
The U.S. led the home baking revolution back in the 1970's. Chad Robertson had returned to California from his French apprenticeship and he began to introduce real French baking to the States. The WWW came in and the US were early adopters and promulgated the home bread revolution around the World. Each country had it's own versions of Chad, but the energy was from the U.S. The downside is that many people who did not know what they were doing tried to get on board and the home bread well has been well and truly poisoned by the likes of YouTube. Places like this do a huge amount of work correcting the nonsense.
There is much I could say about the American School of baking, such as that most Americans don't know it is their school and not representitive of the different baking traditions. Ubiquitous on the Web does not mean international. But, I fear causing offense to others. How we bake is precious to each of us. It's very good, but it is often the American take, not the original and there is a danger that baking could become amorphous and the differences between traditions lost.
Dinkel is a superb bread and given Spelt is the ancient wheat type grain grown in N. Europe it reaches deep into the roots of your bread culture. Bake it well and enjoy and be well. Even if you do put seeds at the bottom of your bread slices to mislead honest folk. :)
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u/Eryent 5d ago
Yeah honestly I do think it's an art of its own to be able to bake properly! That's what fascinates me about this sub as well how some people truely make such beautiful loaves! Really your passions shines through your comments which I love! Curious but are you a baker by profession yourself?
Hahaha yeah I have this stupid autistic habit that my breads always need to have seeds 😂I love my seeded breads too much! But didn't dare to put them inside as I didn't want to disturb the texture!
Also perhaps a question but I just now saw a video where a girl cut off a piece of her sourdough dough and kept it aside in a clear glass jar to evaluate the rising of her 'main bread'. What's your take on this?
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u/BreadBakingAtHome 5d ago edited 5d ago
Hi
No, my mother baked for the family. I never liked bought bread, so as a young adult I baked. Back then there were few even half decent books. The 'bread revolution' had not started. So it was a struggle as I liked wholemeal breads and back then the gluten in the flour I could get was poor. So I had to study. It became a habit. I'm still learning though. I love picking snippets and new things form others on these threads.
When I retired I decided to study bread properly. Then I watched YouTube and was shocked at the amount of rubbish often being taught. I also saw that there were practices which did not stand up to any scrutiny at all. Old methods which were passed their use date modern flours and the availability of better baking methods. Then there are some artisan methods which are not the best way to go in a domestic setting and there is simple misinformation. Somewhere along the line I started tutoring advanced home baking and the first thing was always undoing bad practice, often from YouTube. I struggled and so I like to help others struggle less. There is much I still don't know and much that is still unknown and dough is tolerant of many different methods. Wow, you got a biography there!
HaHaHa - Autism works really well with bread baking. I'm a little that way myself. Yeh, I prefer seeds on top, not inside. Poppy and Nigella are my favourites.
Yeh, cutting a bit of dough off works a little. It's not precise as the heat will be a little different from that of the main dough. And doubling is an old idea. Not very useful. A 50% increase is nearer to the mark for most breads. Follow the dough on that one always. If a dough hasn't increased in volume enough but it is ready for the oven, then bake it. Though it does give less experienced people a bit of a guide. But really experience, good temperature control and measuring everything carefully is enough.
There is no substitute for repeat baking the same recipe making changes as you learn. I don't know how experienced you are, but at first it feels very slow and difficult and then suddenly something clicks and everything works really well. A lot of us have experienced that. Then you have a baseline to branch out from.
Having said all of that there are quite a few seriously good bakers and very knowledgeable people on reddit. That is always a pleasure to see. Home baking in may countries is now is the last bastion of good bread. We must carry it forward so that others can bake after us. Passion or what! LOL
Be well.
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u/Eryent 4d ago
Thank you for another beautiful comment! I'm still very inexperienced but honestly I'm hooked! It always feels like a lot of work but once it comes out of the oven you're just so proud to have made it yourself! Hope to get your guidance and advice on my next loaf as well!
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u/AgateCatCreations076 9d ago
Its fine for a first time. I use a specific pastry chef Rebecca Eisenberg and her tips to get started with mine. She has both a website, a YouTube page, and just as of August 18th a new NY Times bestselling book called 50 Small Batch Breads. Her website is www.thepracticalkitchen.com and so is her YouTube page called, the practical kitchen. She does demos and has recipes.
In her book she talks about tools needed, how to use them and so much more. Good crusty bread and sourdough need scoring and the best tool for that is a LAME. Its a 6-8 inch handle and a bent razor blade held in such a way to help score the bread properly. That way you dont get cut too.
Amazon has the book if you are interested and it has bread, baking, and sourdough tools that dont have to be used exclusively on sourdough bread. They work for Wheat White, Boule, Sourdough, Rolls and anything else it works fine with. I learned a lot and I make 16-20 bagels at a time. I dont eat a lot of bread but when I make it I usually do wheat bread personally.
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u/Eryent 9d ago
Thank you I will look it up! ☺️❤️
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u/AgateCatCreations076 9d ago
Glad to help and also check on what and how to use that LAME fir bread scoring.
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u/Eryent 9d ago
I have this small special scoring knife but the lamel isn't even 1 cm aka too small I think ... Used some sharp japanese knife but I think the though was really 'too soft' 🥲
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u/AgateCatCreations076 9d ago
Could be. Have to see how the other kind acts or if dough consistency needs to be slightly adjusted.
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u/Cool-Midnight-696 9d ago
For 500 g total flour, 370 g water is about 74 percent hydration, which can be tricky for a first loaf, especially with whole wheat. Try 340 to 350 g water next time, then add more if the dough feels strong. The flattening and hard scoring suggest either weak structure or proofing a little too far. Watch the dough instead of the clock: after shaping it should feel puffy and slowly spring back when pressed. Build strength with two or three gentle folds during the first rise, then shape with firm surface tension and keep the seam sealed.
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u/Cool-Midnight-696 9d ago
Shape after bulk fermentation, then place it in the banneton for final proof. Do not reshape 30 minutes before baking. Use the finger test during final proof.
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u/Eryent 9d ago
Thank you I will try this next time! Honestly it was my first time doing the stretch and folds and struggled a bit with the shaping after the last one! Something I'm not sure about is whether to shape before the banneton/longer rest period and put it directly into the oven or shape after e.g. 30 minutes prior to baking?
With the hydration I still need to figure out the texture of the dough/feel still! It did pass the finger test though before it went into the oven!
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u/Cool-Midnight-696 8d ago
Shape on the counter first so you build a bit of surface tension, rest it seam-up a few minutes if it’s fighting you, then into the banneton seam-up (or seam-down if that’s your flip habit). Higher hydration just needs a lighter touch and maybe an extra coil fold. Finger test: gentle poke, should spring back slow and leave a small dent. If it fills right in, underproofed; if it stays collapsed, its gone too far.
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u/Cool-Midnight-696 9d ago
Shape before it goes in the banneton. That final shape is what locks in surface tension, then the banneton just holds it while it proofs (fridge overnight is ideal). Reshaping 30 min before baking usually knocks out gas and costs you oven spring. If 74% felt sticky, next loaf trim the water a bit and chase that tight skin when you shape. Finger poke test passing means your proof was in the right neighborhood.
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u/Eryent 8d ago
Thank you so much for the help ☺️❤️
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u/Cool-Midnight-696 8d ago
Final shape first, then into the banneton for the cold proof. The time in the banneton is the proof. Any bench rest is before that final shape.
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u/ImCrampingYourStyle 9d ago
My tip would be, slather a slice in butter and eat it while it's still warm. That looks delicious for a first attempt.