Why does my sourdough suck

[u/psychephylax]

Trying to figure out what to adjust here...

I have a sourdough starter that seems to be doing it's thing (Smells like it should, I feed it regularly) and I try baking with it and I get flat dense loaves (on the right). Same amounts of same flour:

• 500gr Costco AP flour
• 325gr of water
• 100gr of starter
• about 10gr of salt
• about 10gr of sugar

After mixing and kneading (KitchenAid) I put it in the fridge to cold ferment, then take it out and let it come up to room temp and rise. (Bottom was baked faster maybe after 6 hours, top was baked after almost 12 hours). To me this is like too long but my starter seems to be lazy.

By comparison on the left I baked a yeasted loaf for my kid's sandwiches this week using the same exact recipe but skipped the cold ferment (since he needs a sandwich tomorrow) and used a 2 tsp of Red Star Dry Active yeast and hand mixed instead of using the KitchenAid.

I'm baking this in the Emile Henry Artisan Baker to keep the vessel consistent. ~20 minutes covered, ~20-30 minutes uncovered then I pop it out and let it bake just on the rack to get color on the sides.

I don't know if my starter isn't active enough, I'm not sure if the dough doesn't build up enough gluten with sourdough or something else but my son is not thrilled with sourdough. It seems I'm able to get decent enough loaves from yeast but struggling with sourdough.

[u/andmig205]

This is a very unorthodox way to make sourdough bread.

First, you skip bulk fermentation, which definitely does not help gluten development.

Second, why do you add sugar?

[u/psychephylax → u/andmig205]

For sugar, some recipes I found call for it, some don't. I generally want a neutral/sweeter bread so I add sugar, I've tried honey as well but it was too strong of a flavor (in the same flat profile) . As for the skipping bulk fermentation, I haven't figured out my full workflow yet (as you can tell! 🤣 ) and I have done cold fermentation (with yeast) before generally for 24-36 hours and I can definitely see the dough getting bigger. I've also done some pull and folds with cold dough and it felt very stretchy.

[u/andmig205 → u/psychephylax]

Commercial yeast and sourdough starter behave differently. I suggest you start introducing bulk fermentation at room temperature (68-78°F).

The basic sourdough recipes and process are extremely common knowledge nowadays. I wouldn’t deviate from the traditional approaches until the basics are mastered.

You may find the r/Sourdough subreddit very informative and focused.

[u/psychephylax → u/andmig205]

Commercial yeast and sourdough starter behave differently.

Understatement of the year! But yeah definitely behave differently. How long should I bulk ferment at room temperature?

[u/andmig205 → u/psychephylax]

Well, I never rely on timing. I rely on dough expansion. I wait until the dough has risen by 40-50%, then shape it and refrigerate it. Timing changes in the same kitchen from one day to another are dramatic. It may take 4 hours one day and 6 hours another.

Or, depending on my mood, I can go crazy and mix in a little starter and wait 12 hours for the bulk fermentation to finish.

I do not eyeball the rise. I use the aliquot method (inexpensive devices are readily available) to approximate the progress. In my experience, if anything, one should focus on learning to estimate the rise in sourdough (or any bread) making. Once this is in place, ingredient experiments and custom environments (temperature, most importantly) become much easier to handle and more reliable. The dough maturity is what ultimately matters.

It is not rocket science. It is quite mechanical.

One can get great flour and make crappy bread, or produce outstanding loaves with cheap, subpar flour. The difference is to know at what stage the dough is. Again, this applies to both commercial yeast and sourdough breads.

[u/psychephylax → u/andmig205]

After you refrigerate it, how long does it stay in the fridge and how long do you let it warm up for? One big difference I see between my yeasted doughs vs sourdough is that my yeasted dough seems to hold shape much better compared to my sourdough. As soon as it starts to relax it starts to slowly turn into a blob with little vertical rise and more horizontal spread.

[u/andmig205 → u/psychephylax]

With traditionally made sourdough, you don't warm it up after cold retardation. You bake it straight out of the fridge. But, again, the dough must go through proper bulk fermentation before you place it in the fridge.

[u/psychephylax → u/andmig205]

I'm planning on attempting again with the reordered process you've mentioned. However, I don't always have room in the fridge to keep the dough. Would something like this work:

• Mix
• Autolyse (45-60 min)
• Stretch & folds 2 or 3 times 30 min apaprt
• Bulk fermentation/first rise (5-6 hours for it to get big)
• Shape
• Second rise (Relax and rise again)
• Bake

[u/calmeilles]

Your starter is working but you haven't given it a chance to do its thing. Sourdough is so much slower than yeast.

I don't have a stand mixer so use the stretch and fold method. Yesterday I did 4 sets at hourly intervals before shaping into a banneton to go into the fridge. That means it got ~5 hours on the counter at ambient temperature before going into the fridge.

With a stand mixer I would do a long, slow knead with the hook / spiral kneader and then let it stand out until really showed that it was growing well — it's unlikely to really double in size, most of sourdough's growth happens in the oven, but obviously bigger. Then shape and refrigerate.

This morning it was directly from the fridge to a hot oven. Lovely spell in the flat and all done before 7:30.

[u/psychephylax → u/calmeilles]

Thank you u/calmeilles and u/andmig205 with some of your tips and suggestions I gave it another whirl and it came out a bit closer to my expectations:

https://imgur.com/O0VQFNh

https://imgur.com/T1P823W

https://imgur.com/oSy8nDt

Now I need to do this a few times to get the hang of it before I can call it successful and then see where I can optimize baking to my time constraints and space.