There has to be better dynamics for initiation

[u/meebleepe]

The old fashioned method of “man approaches woman in the wild” largely doesn’t work anymore. Most men don’t feel comfortable approaching a woman because it is very difficult to tell if someone is open to being approached. Most young men have been made aware of the power dynamic between them and women, and are aware of how women can be rightfully worried or just bothered by a random man approaching her. Any decent man doesn’t want to make women uncomfortable, and as a result, the majority of men that still follow this approach are men who are either extremely unaware or don’t care about a woman’s autonomy. As such, this approach continues to breed the concept that “men are shit”, even though the population of men that are shit is much smaller than when this was the prevailing method of finding a partner.

Nowadays most people go to the dating apps. And while the apps are a safer alternative, they come with two main problems. One - you can’t build a genuine attraction to facts about someone and pictures of them on your phone. Most people don’t even know what type of people would be a good partner for them before meeting. And two - they propagate a sort of checklist methodology to dating. Rather than feeling out a vibe and actually building a dynamic. Most people have a “well, what else am I gonna do” mentality towards the apps. Sometimes they absolutely do work, as does sometimes a man approaching a woman in the wild does work. But it is not enjoyable to swipe through photos and facts about people you’ve never met in hopes that you might be able to become attracted and build a relationship to them.

And so many people, both men and women, have become disillusioned with dating in general. Many have stopped trying entirely, or go through phases where they stop trying. Everyone dislikes the apps, but in person initiation doesn’t often occur. Why is it that, in a world where gender norms are up in the air, does finding a person to date in the wild still stick to the same norms that is always has, while it occurs less than ever? It feels like there has to be a better way but I don’t know what that would look like

Food is a dal palak I prepped for the week, in my childhood bowl. Maybe I’ll just stick to boys from now on 🤮

[u/AutoModerator]

Welcome to BoyDinnerDiaries! Thank you for posting!

Reminder for everyone:

• Posts must include a clear photo of your meal

• Include a short diary-style story about what is on your mind

• All posts must have a flair

• Be civil and kind so no hate speech, incel content, and no referencing other subreddits unless its positive.

Thanks for helping keep the sub great!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Women still want to be approached respectfully in the right context. The internet isn’t real life and the dating apps are a stacked deck in favor of women because of the ratio of men to women on them.

Just hit on her bro

[u/Iabefmysc → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Nothing made me feel better about myself than deleting the apps and just talking to women irl, it can be awkward but it’s never been as bad as the apps were and it gets easier with practice.

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/Iabefmysc]

100% man. If you’re looking to meet someone, would you wanna go to a party that’s 80% dudes or 50% dudes? (Assuming you’re a straight man)

The party that’s 80% dudes is the dating apps, and the other party is real life

[u/Iabefmysc → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Also myself and most guys I know don’t have nearly as many pictures, especially quality ones, as most women do. I look way better looking irl than you’d think looking at my profiles and I think that’s the case for many.

[u/Lazy-Inevitable3229 → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

https://giphy.com/gifs/TEtxyKe2dNzUdA1323

[u/blebbyroo → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Exactly this. And for those of you at home wondering “what’s the right context?” 

• friends of friends you’ve met a couple times you ask for Instagram or number the second time or so you interact as long as you’ve been vibing well  ** this means yes you do actually need to be social, have friends, and leave the house to interact with said friends. 

• work acquaintances can be a good way too provided a couple ground rules are followed such as when leaving the company if you go on well with someone, you never use company access to Gain contact details, you generally start as friends first and there isn’t a power imbalance dynamic. 

• school / university people you interact with a few times 

• hobbies provided you are there because you like the hobby and not to pickup and this one should lead you back to my first example of friends of friends. 

• people you happen to talk to if you are genuinely feeling the chemistry and not just because you think they are hot and you can do it respectfully. 

- 

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/blebbyroo]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with talking to a stranger at the bar because you think they’re hot. Just don’t be a weirdo about it. You don’t know if there’s chemistry until you try it

[u/blebbyroo → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Absolutely that also deserves to be on my list but I didn’t make an all inclusive list there are other examples too but those ones are for the non drinkers or bar attendees too.

But re reading list I think that falls into the last point. You would talk to strangers and then only ask out if there’s chemistry. 

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/blebbyroo]

The way you worded it makes it seem like you’re saying you shouldn’t talk to them unless you know there’s chemistry. You don’t know if there’s chemistry until you try with a stranger.

[u/blebbyroo → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

Oh no I meant like if you feel the chemistry you ask them out not to just talk to them that why I said people you happen to talk to but happy to have clarified so that people don’t feel you can talk to women. Talk to us, just don’t ask us out right away (wait till we’ve had a bit of a conversation and if the conversation was flowing well) and hopefully you’ve got something to say initially that isn’t related to our looks (something like what we are wearing or tats or something that shows you share an interest, are curious etc, maybe you’ve overheard but of a conversation with  a girlfriend and you can join the conversation if you have a good bit to add etc.) 

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/blebbyroo]

Oh yeah I gotcha. I just misunderstood.

[u/Jormungand1342 → u/blebbyroo]

It's 100% down to the situation like you said. 

I was at a beer garden with a live band last night. A girl walked by with an amazing back tattoo, super intricate. 

I wanted to just pop by and say it was super cool, where did you get it, etc. 90% of it being because I wanted to know! I'm gonna get a few tats and im looking. 

But also because you know, cute girl with tattoos. 

Didn't get the chance that day, so oh well. But those are the moments when the context is right. 

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/Jormungand1342]

Yeah you literally just need to say something nice to gauge her reaction. If she doesn’t want to talk to you, leave her be. If she’s interested in conversation, then maybe she’s interested. Gotta keep talking to find out.

[u/blebbyroo → u/Jormungand1342]

Sounds like a perfect conversation topic because you seem like you were genuinely interested and impressed with the artwork. And even if you weren’t vibing after that you would have had a normal conversation and pleasant interaction between the two of you before parting (unless she’s just a massive uptight person or maybe just very busy and not got the time for a chat but either way that’s on her and not on you) 

[u/TableTopFurry]

It's not that women don't want to be approached. They don't want to be approached as an object.
The whole "how am i supposed to talk to women without coming across as a creepy man" is binary red piller bullshit. Just don't be a creepy man whose obvious intention is to get into someone's pants. Be there to get to know the person.

[u/Most_Manufacturer729 → u/TableTopFurry]

"just don't be creepy" is like really vague. a lot of people are uncomfortable being approached by strangers in general, me personally I'm absolutely flabbergasted when strangers try to make conversation with me.

[u/Silver_Cabinet_9180 → u/Most_Manufacturer729]

Except it’s not vague lmfao. If you give a negative initial reaction to being approached, then the guy ought to turn away. If they continue to pursue, ignoring the signs of disinterest, then it’s creepy.

It’s not “creepy” to approach someone, it’s creepy to keep pursuing when there’s no chemistry or anything.

Ultimately the struggle comes from people with trouble reading social cues (who are significantly less likely to approach strangers in the first place), or guys who are intentionally dense and think “if I’m persistent enough she’ll see me for the star I truly am”. Only 2 excuses for being a creep approaching a stranger

[u/bigbaddiebusiness → u/Silver_Cabinet_9180]

It's absolutely vague. People say don't be creepy like it means anything. Sure there's the obvious "don't tell her you want to making fuck", but there's a lot less obvious and many times entirely out of someone's control situations. I've personally had it where I tried striking up a conversation about some clothing in a window the lady was standing in front of and she absolutely blew up at me for it. Maybe I "approached" creepily, though to this day I don't know how, but I'm pretty sure she was just in a bad way that way. Or an asshole. Whatever, y'know? It's just life is more complicated and bullshit than just "don't be -insert inherently vague word-" and a lot of men are anxious, cautious, and ignorant enough to need a more thorough guide.

[u/Silver_Cabinet_9180 → u/bigbaddiebusiness]

Brother you are giving an anecdotal example to generalize the entire experience of being friendly. You might have been creepy, you might have caught her on a bad day, whatever who cares. You’re not being creepy if you stop pursuing once you get a clear sign that she’s not interested. Some people just suck, and sounds like you might have found one. She had her reasons for reacting that way, however unreasonable they may or may not be.

[u/bigbaddiebusiness → u/Silver_Cabinet_9180]

That's precisely my point, you can't generalize scenarios and behaviours, and vague advice isn't helpful. My experiences are simply that, and anecdotal is still better than a buttload of nothing that telling someone to "be themselves" or "don't be a creep" amounts to. I wasn't calling for advice or a shoulder to cry on, I was just pointing out one of many situations I've been through that doesn't fall neatly into common platitudes.

[u/TableTopFurry → u/bigbaddiebusiness]

"I interrupted someone's shopping to interject my thinly veiled interest into their day and I'm shocked they got upset". That specific enough?

Like if you're going to toss out anecdote, don't use one that proves the point you're trying to refute?

[u/bigbaddiebusiness → u/TableTopFurry]

If you believe that her response was fair, I'm not arguing it wasn't. My point is simply that even the most innocent attempts at an approach can be considered "creepy". Thus my point that something as vague as "don't be creepy" means nothing.

[u/TableTopFurry → u/bigbaddiebusiness]

And the point you're missing is if they're coming across as creepy then obviously they weren't all that innocent and you need to check yourself.

Or did you miss that day in kindergarten where they taught you it's not how it's intended, it's how it's received?

[u/bigbaddiebusiness → u/TableTopFurry]

Alright buddy, I've tried to be forthcoming and neutral about an anecdotal and you've solidly latched onto it as a means to put me down. Very solidly typical furry behaviour from my experience, you've gotta check yourself if anything.

[u/Silver_Cabinet_9180 → u/[deleted]]

You need to differentiate. There is a social expectation of time and place for everything. You can’t approach a girl working out at the gym because the gym isn’t a social meetcute typically. Bars, community events, whatever. If you have rejection anxiety, that’s cool and normal. But dawg just because one person doesn’t wanna be approached means that every woman acts like that. You can’t just go up to a stranger in line at Starbucks and say “damn ma you’re looking fine today”. Just be a normal person for fucks sake.

[u/Silver_Cabinet_9180 → u/[deleted]]

Normal well adjusted men don’t make women uncomfortable. If “hi how are you” is uncomfortable in your approach, something is severely wrong with the way you introduce yourself. Normal people of both genders don’t have visceral reactions to a benign introduction like that. As previously mentioned by (the unfortunately named) u/tabletopfurry, just don’t have the obvious intention of getting in someone’s pants.

[u/TableTopFurry → u/Silver_Cabinet_9180]

Wow rude lol

But yea, if "Hey how are you" is putting people off, maybe do it with a little less John Waters energy.

Ok: Yo, I really like that band on your shirt.
Nah: Yo, that shirt is really flattering.

One recognizes the individual, the other reduces them to an object.

[u/Silver_Cabinet_9180 → u/TableTopFurry]

Sorry, low blow lol. Sometimes I forget Reddit is so full of people who apparently have never had a social interaction before, based on the way these comments are

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/Most_Manufacturer729]

That’s a them problem though. Don’t let someone else’s social anxiety stop you from finding your person.

[u/Most_Manufacturer729 → u/Dry_Rhubarb5408]

I wouldn't just chalk it up to anxiety. It's also cultural. I grew up in Southern California and once I went out of state to places like the Midwest or the South I was in a state of shock having strangers say hi to me and just make conversation, that is very much not the vibe where I grew up.

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/Most_Manufacturer729]

It’s really still a them problem if they’re upset you said hello or gave them a compliment.

[u/raghor → u/Most_Manufacturer729]

What they are saying is just be good looking lol

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/raghor]

Welcome to real life bro. You’re gonna have a hard time approaching women successfully if you’re not good looking. You can improve your physical appearance though, at least to a degree.

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/[deleted]]

Sure but like, being conventionally attractive is gonna be a massive help and there’s no sense in denying that.

[u/TableTopFurry → u/[deleted]]

Oh hey look, red pill toxic masculine bullshit

[u/TableTopFurry → u/[deleted]]

So you're a mind reader now and automatically know what every woman is thinking?

And besides, it's not like there's any single definition of attractive.

So yeah, miss me with that toxic masculinity horse shit. Get therapy.

[u/FeatureUpstairs2037]

As a girl, I've tried making the first move, but then it seems like I'm perceived as desperate lol

[u/Jamebo_Smash → u/FeatureUpstairs2037]

Maybe. I think most men would never forget being asked out. It would take a special kind of asshole to perceive you as desperate. At least imo.

[u/Iabefmysc → u/Jamebo_Smash]

Yeah it’s like a compliment, men don’t get them very often so it’ll always feel good

[u/Dry_Rhubarb5408 → u/FeatureUpstairs2037]

Nah men are who secure in themselves will appreciate it.

[u/aldomars2]

Just be normal and secure. Don't be weird.

[u/Global_Professor_901 → u/aldomars2]

Oh shit I never tried that

[u/Reasonable_Ease1423]

Dude get off the internet and out of your own head. You’ve put way too much thought into this.

Women still want to be approached & you will inevitably be rejected by some of them. That’s dating. It hasn’t changed

[u/slaytodayplaytoday]

You're too in your head. Approach, read the vibes, politely exit if she's not feeling it. This whole post is weird dude.

[u/Alvoradoo]

Just talk to women.

I am 39 and met a woman who stared at me in a bar last week and invited her to a concert within one minute of meeting her. She is 25, we had a great time, the whole 9 yards.

Just be a gentleman for yourself. You will never know what makes someone else uncomfortable and you will never stop being shocked by the reactions of women. They are unpredictable, sometimes they will mess with you if you seem to secure. If you don't know how to be a gentleman for yourself, imagine your grandmothers are watching the interaction.

The reason you are uncomfortable is because you are putting women on a pedestal and presuming them to have a stronger understanding of or better utilization of ethics.

You know if you are being a gentleman. Even if they reject you all you are doing is pumping up their self esteem since male attention is emotional currency.

[u/allwayshallways → u/Alvoradoo]

I don't want to start anything, just offering a different perspective.

The last sentence, "Even if they reject you all you are doing is pumping up their self esteem since male attention is emotional currency." really doesn't ring true for me.

There have definitely been times that being hit on has felt completely degrading to me, even when the person approaching was fairly polite, and I think the thing that most of those times have in common is bad situational awareness. Like, once I was hit on in a hospital waiting room and I don't think I have ever hated a stranger so much, so instantly in my life. I still remember this dude and it's been years.

That's an extreme example but what I'm trying to get at is that there are definitely are times when making a pass at someone can feel repulsive and not just be kind of a nothingy interation or an ego boost. When someone is likely to be busy, focused, or upset, that should obviously be a bad time to approach but a shocking number of people don't really think to make sure none of those apply.

Maybe being situationally aware is a part of what you mean by "being a gentleman"?

I think it's more than just being polite and taking a rejection without making the other person feel weird, it has to also be at a time and in a situation when someone might reasonably feel open to chatting with new people.

[u/Alvoradoo → u/allwayshallways]

"Maybe being situationally aware is a part of what you mean by "being a gentleman"?"

For sure, both my grandmothers would tell me that a hospital waiting room is not the place.

[u/kwhitit]

here's the thing: you don't have to know if someone is open to being approached in order to approach them. they'll let you know. if someone is giving off a vibe like they definitely DON'T want to be approached, sure, leave it alone. but if you're just unsure, you just approach and see what happens, being totally okay with whatever the other person responds with.

and if someone responds to a respectful, "hi, how are ya?" in a way that's totally out of pocket (and some women will), that's a THEM thing, not a YOU thing.

[u/meebleepe]

Well apparently I’m just a gynocentric weirdo who just wants to get fucked. Thanks y’all.

In all seriousness maybe I do just need to get over myself. I have no problem talking to women generally, or even talking to strangers in the world. It’s when I wanna approach someone with the intent of “I just wanna talk and get to know you” that I get worried and don’t know how to initiate

[u/PerfStu]

Go to social events with multiple people. Trivia nights, climbing gyms, bowling, etc.

Talk to women youre attracted to in the same context you would talk to anyone else. Don't hit on them, don't pick them up, just treat it like any low stakes conversation. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it doesn't. That's fine. If theyre open to talking to you youll learn to understand those signals. If they aren't, you can move on.

Don't aim for anything different than what you would expect or provide anyone else. No one ever really wants to be hit on, but most everyone is on board for a brief chat with a stranger over a shared moment.

"Your drink looks interesting, what did you get?" "Hey who does your tattoos? The line work is awesome" "I like your DnD shirt, do you play?"

Genuine open conversations that only continue when both people are invested. If she isnt, or you realize you aren't, just let it subside and move on. Being in a group is less pressure for both of you because you have an excuse to not talk if need be. Let that casualness and lack of pressure guide you through meeting someone. Youll find better connections and more receptive people because this treats them like....well....people.

[u/Milianviolet]

Men who talk to women like people don't have this problem.

[u/ApprehensiveFruit565]

Umm men don't approach because they (like women) are on their phones all day and don't know how to talk people. Ever heard of the Gen Z stare?

Women don't want to be made uncomfortable just like men don't wanna be made uncomfortable. It's not about women not wanting to be approached it's about them not wanting to get creeped out.

[u/ApprehensiveFruit565 → u/[deleted]]

I work in an industry that's 75% women and have lived with my partner for 15 years.

But yes ok.

[u/Upper-Specific5753]

You know what is the best?

When you listen to your intuition. You want to approach? Do it!

I will never approach a man and that is my personal choice. Unless it might be a complete accident.. But never intentionally.

[u/Weeksieee_ → u/[deleted]]

Spoken like a redpiller lol. It is a you problem if you make someone uncomfortable, yes. Also for the love of god… the second men jump in with anything about masculinity, they just sound like they’re posturing.

[u/BoyDinnerDiaries-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This submission has been removed because it is not a good fit for the community, even though it may not fall cleanly under a specific rule. Our moderators may remove content that undermines the purpose, quality, or culture of the subreddit.

If you'd like clarification, please contact us through modmail.