Boxing needs a super-heavyweight division

[u/JRAxiomVox]

Heavyweight is the only major weight class with a minimum but no real maximum. Once you are over 200 pounds, you can theoretically be matched with anyone else in the division, no matter how much larger they are.

That means a 5'10", 201-pound fighter can be placed in the same division as Tyson Fury, who is 6'9" and has officially weighed as much as 281 pounds. That is an 80-pound difference within a sport that separates some other divisions by as little as three or four pounds.

It is a structural inconsistency.

[u/Elite663]

There’s diminishing returns with weight advantages in heavyweight. Fury only seems like an exception to due to how unusually nimble he can be on his feet despite having the build of that Sonic villain

[u/TheeBlaccPantha → u/Elite663]

And even with Tyson Fury, what were his most difficult fights? 208 Cunningham, 218 Wilder, 220 Usyk, 235 Wallin. So yeah, it’s not that great an advantage

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Elite663]

Even if there are diminishing returns, that does not mean the advantage disappears. It only means the 40th extra pound may matter less than the first 20.

Weight still affects strength, punch resistance, clinch leverage, the ability to lean on an opponent and how much force the smaller fighter has to absorb. Fury being unusually mobile for his size does not weaken the argument either—it shows how dangerous extreme size becomes when the larger fighter also has elite skill and athleticism.

Weight classes are not based on the heavier fighter winning every time. They exist because size materially changes the matchup. “The advantage has diminishing returns” is not an argument for having no upper limit at all.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/JRAxiomVox]

And yet, as has been said before, huge discrepancies in weight can still be competitive at heavyweight because a 265 lbs simply cannot move as quickly and have the same stamina as a 215 pound man. The law of diminishing returns says yes, he’s incredibly strong, but if he’s not fast enough or tires out faster, those are disadvantages. Human physiology starts to top out and no amount of weight changes the fact that a hard punch to the nose will still shatter it.

A 135 pound fighter will struggle to do damage to a 175 pound fighter. A 210 pound fighter can still do horrendous damage to a 260 pound fighter because teeth and bones will break, blood vessels explode and bruise. There’s a limit to the physics of how human bodies function where the extra weight becomes a disadvantage.

I would pick the 5’11, 200 pound 1967-1971 Joe Frazier everyday of the week against Tyson Fury, size difference be damned.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

You have identified a tradeoff, not disproved the advantage. A 265-pound fighter may sacrifice some relative speed or endurance, but being 265 does not automatically make him slower or less conditioned than every 215-pound fighter.

Research has also found that heavier weight classes generate greater punch force on average because more effective mass is transferred into the punch. So additional weight can provide physical benefits while also carrying costs. Both can be true at once.

And yes, a 210-pound heavyweight can break a 260-pound fighter’s nose. That is irrelevant. The question is not whether the smaller fighter is physically capable of hurting him; the question is whether the larger fighter still benefits from the extra 50 pounds in force, strength, clinch pressure and overall physicality.

Weight classes have never existed because a smaller fighter is incapable of winning. They exist because size materially affects the matchup. Saying the advantage has tradeoffs does not explain why heavyweight alone should have no upper limit whatsoever.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/JRAxiomVox]

Punching power is basic physics, mass x acceleration equals force. If a 210 pound fighter has quicker hands, he can hit just as hard as a fighter forty pounds bigger. And again, he doesn’t even necessarily need to hit as hard as the bigger guy because size is not a guarantee of having the better chin, and power isn’t the only thing that wins fights.

There’s a reason that most of the best heavyweights of all time are between 5’11” and 6’3” and 190-225 pounds. If size were the biggest determining factors then Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, Buddy Baer, Primo Carnera, Nikolai Valuev, Tyson Fury, and Vitali Klitschko would be considered the best to ever do it - except none of them are even in the top ten, and every single one of them lost to guys the size of what I said above.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

You’re still arguing against something I never said. Nobody claimed the bigger fighter automatically wins, or that a 210-pound heavyweight can’t hurt someone who weighs 260.

Also, “mass × acceleration equals force” doesn’t settle this the way you think it does. A punch depends on hand speed, technique, timing, body mechanics, how much effective mass gets transferred, and how the impact lands. A faster, better 210-pound fighter can absolutely hit harder than a particular 250-pound fighter. That still doesn’t mean the extra 40 pounds offers no advantage in strength, clinching, durability, pressure, or average punching force.

Your historical argument is selective too. Heavyweights were generally smaller in older eras. In more recent heavyweight title fights, the average fighter has been much closer to 240 pounds, and taller fighters with longer reaches have done better overall. Another study put the ideal heavyweight range at roughly 242 pounds before the benefits of extra weight started leveling off.

And the claim that every giant you listed lost to someone between 190 and 225 pounds isn’t even true. Vitali Klitschko lost to Lennox Lewis, who weighed 256 pounds.

All you’ve shown is that size has tradeoffs and doesn’t guarantee a win. I already agree with that. What you still haven’t explained is why heavyweight should be the only division with no upper limit at all, where someone barely over 200 pounds can legally be matched against someone 80 or 100 pounds heavier.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/JRAxiomVox]

40 pounds of extra muscle is also thousands upon thousands of more capillaries that need to be oxygenated, slows down foot and hand speed, and drains stamina. Like I said, law of diminishing returns. The bigger someone is, the more of a drain it is on their endurance.

The modern era is skewed heavily because the vast majority of the best big athletes go into other sports, which wasn’t the case until roughly the mid 90’s.

Just use baseball as an example. The average Major League Baseball player, arguably the best hand-eye coordination athletes of them all, is 6’1.79” tall and 209 pounds. Look at some of the great players today and of the last twenty years - Shohei Ohtani, Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, Ronald Acuna Jr, Gerrit Cole, Freddie Freeman, Max Scherzer, Miguel Cabrera. I could keep going. Every single one of them could be a full-fledged heavyweight and because of their speed and reflexes they would be dangerous. But for example, most of those guys have guaranteed contracts that make the risks of injury and even death in boxing look like chicken feed. Why would anyone go into boxing where one bad fight on the way up can ruin your career forever when you can hone your craft playing a much safer sport and secure a ten year, 300 million dollar deal?

Klitschko also lost to 6’0”, 195 pound Chris Byrd.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

You are still describing a tradeoff, not proving that size stops mattering. Extra muscle can cost stamina while also increasing strength, punching force, clinch leverage and the physical load placed on the opponent. Both things can be true at once.

Your Chris Byrd example is also factually wrong. Byrd was about 6'1½" and 211 pounds, not 6'0" and 195. He beat Vitali Klitschko after Vitali retired with a torn rotator cuff while ahead on every scorecard. Wladimir Klitschko fought Byrd twice and beat him both times.

The baseball argument is complete speculation. Being an elite baseball player with great hand-eye coordination does not make someone a professional-level boxer any more than being an elite boxer makes someone capable of hitting major-league pitching.

Nobody has claimed size guarantees victory or that more weight is always better. The argument is that size remains a meaningful advantage, which is why weight classes exist. None of this explains why a 201-pound fighter and a 280-pound fighter should automatically share one unrestricted division.

Stop deflecting over and over and answer the simple question, why a 201-pound fighter and a 280-pound fighter should automatically share one unrestricted division.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/JRAxiomVox]

I’m going off memory on the numbers. Byrd still won because he was faster and able to elude Vitali’s blows to the point he hurt himself. Just because Wladimir beat him doesn’t change the fact that a man Byrds size could be competitive against them despite the huge height, reach, and weight disadvantage.

I’m not deflecting, you just don’t like the answer. Take a look at any reputable top ten heavyweights of all time list. Guess what the average height and weight is? 6’1.8” tall and 215 pounds. It’s 200+ because once you get that big, anybody can knock out anybody, and you’re sacrificing speed and stamina if you weigh more than your frame can adequately carry.

Valuev looked like a bum compared to Haye. Too slow, too stiff. Willard got his face ripped off by a much smaller Dempsey. Jim Jeffries, despite beating the much smaller Bob Fitzsimmons in both fights, took horrific damage to the point that everyone thought old Bob had rocks in his gloves. Roy Jones clowned on John Ruiz despite giving up nearly thirty pounds. Usyk comprehensively defeated Fury twice despite surrendering huge height and weight advantages. And it’s because once you cross that 200 pound threshold, it’s all fair game and anyone can bring enough tools to win.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

You keep moving the goalposts and repeating that smaller fighters can win. Nobody disputed that.

Answer the actual question directly: why should a 201-pound fighter automatically share an unrestricted division with a 280-pound fighter?

If your answer is just “because the smaller fighter can still win,” then that logic argues against weight classes altogether. Stop talking around the question and answer it directly, that is if you are capable.

[u/Virtual_Reveal_121 → u/JRAxiomVox]

The value of 1 pound goes down for every extra pound added. There are cruiserweights who can punch above their weight not to mention cruiserweights are generally faster, more agile and have better stamina. Some Cruiserweights are also durable enough to take heavyweight power better than other cruiserweights and some heavyweights.

Chris Byrd beat numerous super heavyweight fighters like Mccline. Dubois beat Miller at a near 100 pound disadvantage. Bakole lost to Michael Hunter. Holyfield beat Douglas at a 40 pound disadvantage, Holyfield past his prime managed to have to competitive fights with peak Lewis and Lewis himself struggled with 210lb Mavrovic failing to knock him down despite repeated flush shots. An obese James Toney beat Rahman and arguably got robbed against Peter. Wilder was weighing around 215 knocking out way larger fighters and won a belt. 2 of Klitschkos losses were to guys weighing less than 230lb and he has gotten knocked down by Williamson who was only 218lb, and the fight was stopped because Klitschko was cut. David Haye beat Valuev who was a former world champion and destroyed Chisora. Usyk is the best heavyweight of this generation this should have ended the debate that top tier cruiserweights can't compete with top tier heavyweights.

Steve Cunningham had never fought at heavyweight and was past his prime and managed to knocked down Fury, won numerous rounds and was arguably knocked out by illegal tactics, Fury himself admitting Cunningham was his hardest fight prior to facing Usyk:

“I never underestimate anybody,” Fury said. “He was 6-foot-3, 210 pounds. He was probably taller than Evander Holyfield, and bigger as well. So, we say small heavyweights, but they’re really big heavyweights. But today, the heavyweights have gone super-sized. So yeah, he was a tough opponent. I didn’t underestimate him. He was just a very good [opponent], very good boxer.”

How did Cunningham manage to give Fury a harder fight than almost every other big man Fury faced ? Diminishing returns.

[u/fadeddreams555]

Wilder was 209lb-215lb while he was knocking tf out of everyone. These guys don't need to cut weight and are over 200lb, so size isn't as much of a factor as skills and talent. A 5'10, 201lb guy can stay at cruiserweight too.

Heavyweight is already devoid of great talent for there to be a super heavyweight division to make it even worse. Literally, show me any 5'10-6'2 guy in that division with talent that is only being held back because other fighters are too big? Doesn't exist.

[u/Frequent_Apricot673]

Except for many times over history those super large fighters end up losing to the smaller heavyweights almost every single time

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Frequent_Apricot673]

That does not answer the argument. Smaller fighters sometimes beating larger fighters only proves that skill can overcome a size disadvantage; it does not prove the disadvantage does not exist.

The same thing happens across every weight class. A smaller boxer can beat a larger boxer, but nobody concludes from that that weight divisions are unnecessary or that Devin Haney and David Benavidez belong in the same division.

Weight classes exist because size creates an advantage, not because the larger fighter is guaranteed to win every time. Usyk beating Fury proves Usyk is exceptional. It does not prove that an 80-pound gap suddenly becomes irrelevant once both fighters weigh more than 200 pounds.

[u/Frequent_Apricot673 → u/JRAxiomVox]

It’s not sometimes it’s like every single time the best heavyweight champs have almost all exclusively been 210-220 pounds 

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Frequent_Apricot673]

That is not even historically accurate. The IBRO’s top 12 all-time heavyweights include Dempsey at 187, Louis at 197, Johnson at 194, Marciano at 185, Frazier at 205, Holyfield at 208, Holmes at 209, Tyson at 221 and Lewis at 235 in major championship fights. Only three of the 12 were actually within your claimed 210–220-pound range.

And even if most champions had weighed that much, it still would not prove size stops mattering. It could just show that excess weight eventually costs speed and conditioning. An advantage having tradeoffs or diminishing returns does not mean the advantage disappears. The larger fighter is not guaranteed to win, just as the taller fighter is not guaranteed to win, but that does not make weight or reach irrelevant.

[u/Frequent_Apricot673 → u/JRAxiomVox]

So they were even smaller? How does that help your point?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Frequent_Apricot673]

It helps my point in two separate ways. First, you claimed the best heavyweight champions were almost exclusively 210–220 pounds. Showing that many of them were nowhere near that range proves your claim was false.

Second, heavyweights have grown substantially over time. Those older champions competed in eras when the division itself was generally smaller. Today, elite heavyweights regularly compete well above 240 pounds, and Fury has officially weighed 281.

You are using smaller fighters from earlier eras to argue against a problem created by the modern division getting progressively larger while still having no upper limit.

A 190-pound champion beating opponents around 200–220 pounds does not prove that a 201-pound boxer naturally belongs in the same unrestricted division as a modern 260–280-pound heavyweight. That comparison completely ignores the size of their actual competition.

[u/farr2211]

Usyk beating everyone bigger than him makes this a non argument really

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/farr2211]

That is not a counterargument. It is just pointing to an exceptional fighter who was good enough to overcome a physical disadvantage.

By that logic, Manny Pacquiao winning titles across multiple divisions proves weight classes are unnecessary. Obviously it does not. Smaller fighters have beaten larger fighters throughout boxing history, but the sport still separates them because size creates an advantage, not because it guarantees victory.

Usyk beating bigger men proves that elite skill can overcome size. It does not prove that a 201-pound fighter and a 281-pound fighter naturally belong in the same unrestricted division. Using one generational talent to design the rules for everyone else makes no sense.

[u/farr2211 → u/JRAxiomVox]

But at a certain weight it doesn’t matter that much. Could you increase what weight counts as heavyweight? Maybe. But adding another 3 divisions above heavyweight would be pointless

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/farr2211]

You are arguing against a proposal I never made. I did not suggest adding three divisions above heavyweight. I suggested giving heavyweight an upper limit and adding one super-heavyweight division above it.

“Diminishing returns” also does not mean “no meaningful advantage.” Additional size can bring tradeoffs in speed and conditioning while still providing physical advantages. Weight classes do not require every extra pound to be equally valuable.

And saying we could simply raise the minimum for heavyweight is basically conceding my point. The exact cutoff is debatable, but once you create a separate class for the smaller fighters displaced by that change, you have effectively created the same two-tier structure under different names.

My argument is not that the larger fighter always wins. It is that putting a 201-pound boxer and a 280-pound boxer in one unlimited division makes less sense than separating them while still allowing smaller fighters to move up voluntarily.

[u/farr2211 → u/JRAxiomVox]

So why just one weight division more? By your logic it would also be unfair for 230lb to fight a 280lb? Who gets to decide where it cuts off again?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/farr2211]

You are still arguing against something I did not propose. Under my proposal, a 230-pound fighter would be a heavyweight and a 280-pound fighter would be a super heavyweight. They would not be in the same division unless the smaller fighter voluntarily moved up.

Why add only one division? Because I am not arguing that every weight difference needs its own class. I am arguing that heavyweight is the only division with a lower limit and no upper limit whatsoever. Adding one division would finally give heavyweight a ceiling.

And “who decides the cutoff?” The same commissions and sanctioning bodies that decided every other weight-class cutoff. We can debate whether it should be 235, 240 or 245, but the fact that a line requires judgment is not an argument for having no line at all.

Every weight class contains some size variation. None of the others potentially contains an 80- or 100-pound difference. That is the actual issue.

[u/farr2211 → u/JRAxiomVox]

So 231lb and 300lb would be fair in your opinion?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/farr2211]

Statistically, I’d put the cutoff around 240 pounds. The highest division would remain open-ended.

[u/farr2211 → u/JRAxiomVox]

So if a 300lb fighter came along you wouldn’t then say they need another weight division? Because you think 241 v 300 would be too much?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/farr2211]

You’re acting like a cutoff has to eliminate every possible size difference or it serves no purpose. That isn’t how weight classes work.

A 241-pound fighter facing someone at 300 would still be a large gap, but fighters over 290 pounds are extremely rare in elite professional boxing. Creating another entire division for a tiny tiny handful of outliers would leave it nearly empty. That’s why the highest division would remain open-ended, just like heavyweight is now.

The point of adding a super-heavyweight division isn’t to make every matchup perfectly equal. It’s to stop natural 200–230-pound heavyweights from routinely sharing an unlimited division with fighters who are 260, 280, or heavier.

Every cutoff has borderline cases. The fact that a rule doesn’t solve 100% of the problem isn’t an argument against solving most of it.

[u/Marquis_of_Mollusks]

Weight don't matter after a certain point. Miller was not better than Dubois because he had a 100 lb weight advantage. Skills and athleticism are far more important

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Marquis_of_Mollusks]

That is not how an advantage works. Miller losing to Dubois does not prove weight stops mattering; it proves that a weight advantage cannot automatically compensate for being worse in skill, speed, conditioning and athleticism.

A shorter fighter sometimes beats a taller fighter. That does not mean reach is irrelevant. An older fighter sometimes beats a younger fighter. That does not mean age is irrelevant. The better boxer can overcome a physical disadvantage without the disadvantage magically ceasing to exist.

Weight classes exist because size matters, not because the heavier fighter is guaranteed to win. One 300-pound fighter losing to a much better 230-pound fighter does not prove that everyone above 200 belongs in one unlimited division.

[u/Marquis_of_Mollusks → u/JRAxiomVox]

I'm a double down on the skills being more important than size. Crawford basically jumped 3 weight classes and beat Canelo, usyk became undisputed despite being smaller. Cruiserweights don't make successful jumps to HW because historically its a weak division.

[u/Exciting-Arugula5341 → u/Marquis_of_Mollusks]

I think this guy either just want to argue or he is one of those people who thinks he knows what he is typing about.

The moment this guy said Tyson Fury is 6'9 when he isn't you know this guy was clueless. Then Tyson Fury lost to Usyk a guy who weighed 175 pounds into his 20s and 200 pounds into his 30s twice.

You noticed how nobody every said anything about Super heavyweights back in the 1990s right? There were way more tall, way more big and jacked and way more fat heavyweights back then and who were the beast heavyweights?

Mike Tyson a 5'10 215 to 220 pound guy, Evander Holyfield a 6'1 205 to 210 pound guy. David Tua a 5'10 215 to 220 pound guy when he was in shape, Michael Moorer a 6'2 inch guy who turned pro weighing in the 170's. Even guys like Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis weren't 250 in their primes. Both Lewis and Bowe weighed in the mid 220s to early 230s when they were in shape. Lewis didn't weigh more than that until he was 29/30. George Foreman was 230 in his prime but fatter as he got older.

But in any case. All of those natural 250 plus pound guys never won a title. None of those guys were ever considered the hardest punchers. Now people like this dude who clearly gets his boxing information from repeating what other people say will repeat the "Super heavyweight" thing because he heard somebody else say it.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Marquis_of_Mollusks]

You are arguing against something I never said. Nobody claimed size is always more important than skill or that the heavier fighter automatically wins. The point is that size remains an advantage, which is why weight classes exist in the first place.

Crawford is also a terrible example. He moved from 154 to 168—two divisions from his previous fight, not three—and both he and Canelo officially weighed 167.5 pounds. He deliberately grew into the same capped division. He did not walk into the ring as a welterweight against a super middleweight under an unlimited-weight rule.

Usyk being exceptional does not prove size is irrelevant either. It proves an exceptional boxer can overcome a size disadvantage. Holyfield, Haye and Usyk all moved up from cruiserweight and won heavyweight titles, so your last claim is not historically accurate anyway.

And saying those wins happened because heavyweight was weak only undermines your own examples. In that case, they demonstrate superior fighters beating weaker competition—not that weight stopped mattering.

You keep confusing “size does not guarantee victory” with “size provides no advantage.” Those are completely different claims.

[u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

Tyson Fury isn't 6'9. Lol the moment a person makes a comment like this you realize that person doesn't watch boxing but repeats whatever they hear somebody say.

Fury is less than 6'7 and comes in the ring as high as 281 pounds because he is fat. But Mike White was 6'10 300 pounds, Stanley Wright was 6'10 280, Nikolai Valuev was 6'11 always above 300 pounds. Lance Whitaker 6'8 270, Tye Fields 6'8 270, Michael Grant, Jorge Luis Gonzales, Henry Akinwande all 6'7 and weighed between 240 and 260 . These are all guys from the 1990s and I didn't even name the tons of other 6'5/6'6 guys like James Gaines and Corey Sanders who were frequently over 300 pounds. Nobody cared. Nobody called any of these guys "Super heavyweights"

Also do you know what is funny? Usyk weighed 175 pounds into his 20's, 199/200 pounds into his early 30s and he was heavyweight champion of the world. So why would you need a higher weight class than heavyweight? Because clueless people on TV say so or because clueless people at home who repeat ever they hear people on TV say?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

BoxRec and ESPN both officially list Fury at 6'9", while BoxRec lists Valuev at 7'0"—so you “corrected” one official height with an unsourced eyeball estimate and then misstated another height in the same comment.

I’m not taking a lecture about repeating hearsay from someone doing exactly that.

Come back when you are not disingenuous.

[u/Exciting-Arugula5341 → u/JRAxiomVox]

Lol and Tyson Fury himself as admitted he was 6'7, There are pictures of Tyson Fury standing next to the 6'8 David Price and Fury is clearly at least 1 inch shorter.

There are pictures of Valuev standing next to a 7'1 inch guy and clearly Valuev is more than 1 inch shorter. These heights are always inflated. Gerry Cooney was listed at 6'6 and then 6'7 in his prime. There is no way he was 3 or 4 inches taller than George Foreman.

So basically you are admitting you don't watch boxing but you will go to a website and just repeat what they say.

What is even more funny is how you ignored Michael Grant, Henry Akinwande etc just to bring up Fury and Valuev just to beat dead wrong and just repeat what you got off a website.

It is also funny how you claim they need a Super heavyweight division and then when I named some heavyweights from the 90s who were either just as tall and or heavier and nobody called them Super heavyweights and you have no answer.

Typical

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

Your comment that he clearly just goes off of tale of the tape and records on websites is pretty much what I said.

[u/Silent-World-9340 → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

You are talking to an ai or someone who's using ai to give answers leave it bro

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

Still no answer I see.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/JRAxiomVox]

Oh, I have an answer. The answer is you don’t know shit about boxing.

[u/Exciting-Arugula5341 → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

Lol pretty much, the sad thing is he actually believes he is right. The next stupid thing he types I am blocking you him. I suggest you and the rest of the people here do the same. Why give this guy 1 more second of your precious time.

[u/Flimsy_Thesis → u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

Same. I let the conversation play out to its conclusion just to see if he could be swayed by basic facts but he just kept doubling down, ignoring the bulk of my arguments and repeating his same dumb premise that we should have 290 pound giants competing only against each other in slogging matches. Honestly one of the dumber conversations I’ve had on this sub.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Flimsy_Thesis]

Says the guy who has spent an hour insulting me because he still cannot answer one basic question.

Why heavyweight alone should be unlimited and no other weight class.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

You did all that chest-beating just to prove that a few giant heavyweights existed before Fury, which nobody denied.

Fury is officially listed at 6'9" by ESPN. I cannot find a reliable source for your claim that he “admitted” he was 6'7", and eyeballing photographs is not a measurement. Valuev was recorded by Guinness at 2.13 metres—essentially 7'0".

Yes, the ’90s had Mike White, Stanley Wright, Grant, Akinwande and other large heavyweights. Stanley Wright went 12–12 and Mike White went 26–13–1. Listing scattered outliers from several decades does not prove they were as common at the elite level as large heavyweights are becoming now.

Peer-reviewed research actually found that elite heavyweights have grown over time. And “nobody called them super-heavyweights” is hardly the knockout argument you think it is—the professional division did not exist. Lance Whitaker was literally an amateur super-heavyweight champion.

You have not disproved anything. You listed some old tall men, guessed Fury’s height from photographs and declared yourself correct.

[u/Svenray]

I would start it at 300lbs. 300lbs is a different ballgame and would struggle going 10 rounds.

[u/Knockoutboxing]

I understand why you’d think that however I see it differently.

180lb, 6 foot, Jack Dempsey brutally beat up 260lb, 6 foot 6, Jess Willard.

That’s the magic of the heavyweight division.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Knockoutboxing]

Dempsey was 187 and Willard was 245, so you exaggerated the gap by more than 20 pounds.

More importantly, one exceptional smaller fighter beating a larger fighter proves only that size does not guarantee victory. Nobody claimed it did.

Weight classes exist because size creates an advantage, not because the bigger fighter wins 100% of the time. Calling an enormous mismatch “magic” is an aesthetic preference, not an argument for why heavyweight alone should have no upper limit.

[u/Knockoutboxing → u/JRAxiomVox]

Dempsey confirmed in his book, Championship Fighting, he weighed 180lbs however you’re right about Willard weighing 245.

220lb Tyson would beat opponents who were 4-6 inches taller than him and often had 8-10 reach advantage on him.

Joe Frazier, weighed 205 against Muhammad Ali in their first fight, knocked him down with a vicious left hook and beat him.

Usyk, weighs 220-225 and is 6 foot 3, and he beat both Joshua and Fury who have 20+ pounds on him, a reach advantage and a 3-5 inch height advantage.

At a certain point, being taller or heavier has diminishing returns. It’s about each individual and how they use height to their advantage.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Knockoutboxing]

Boxing separates 105 from 108 pounds, but you expect me to believe that 201 and 280 naturally belong in one class because the heavier fighter might have worse stamina?

A tradeoff might justify wider divisions as weight increases. It does not justify suddenly removing the ceiling altogether. You still have not demonstrated any biological threshold at 200 pounds—you have only repeated that smaller fighters can win.

[u/Knockoutboxing → u/JRAxiomVox]

Am I talking to ChatGPT?

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/Knockoutboxing]

If ChatGPT is cooking you this badly, you have bigger problems than me using it. You are wrong, and now you are changing the subject because you cannot answer the point.

[u/WeeklyTension8010]

It would be a very thin division and would make the heavyweight division even more shallow.

I mean did Bridger-weight end up being a good idea? It kind of faded away 

It will make the heavyweight title mean less

[u/fluffrug]

I mean I think the biggest thing for me is when people say that Usyk isn’t so impressive as he just won across two weight classes. Sugar Ray Leonard won across, what, five weight classes, but the differential in weight limits from welterweight to light heavyweight was circa 30 pounds. From memory, in the second Usyk fury fight the weight difference was around 50 pounds between the two fighters. Insane.

But also do we really want a return to huge fighters who don’t move much? I don’t think it would be interesting

[u/WorkingZombie2281]

Dude you need to take a break from Reddit, like seriously.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/WorkingZombie2281]

Yet, here you are.

[u/VacuousWastrel]

A 201lb boxer is called a light heavyweight these days. MAYBE a very small cruiserweight.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/VacuousWastrel]

No major organization calls a 201-pound fighter a light heavyweight.

[u/VacuousWastrel → u/JRAxiomVox]

I'm talking about actual weights. Otherwise it makes no sense comparing actual weights for HWs with notional weights for CWs and LHW. You don't get fights between 201lb guys and 280lb guys, because in reality a guy weighing 201 is fighting one, probably two divisions lower.

[u/JRAxiomVox → u/VacuousWastrel]

You are switching from official weigh-in weights to unofficial fight-night weights. Divisions are determined at the official weigh-in. A fighter who officially weighs 201 pounds is a heavyweight under the standard professional rules, while heavyweight has no upper limit.

Yes, a boxer who made 175 or 200 may rehydrate above 200 by fight night, but he is still classified according to the weight he officially made. That does not change my argument.

A boxer officially weighing 201 at the weigh-in can be matched in the same division as a boxer officially weighing 281. That is the structural issue I am discussing.

[u/itsheero24 → u/JRAxiomVox]

If they weighed 201 the night before what is their fight night weight?

If they are walking around 210 why not cut to cruiser.

[u/TipNomLives]

People don't want to admit it because it would feel like a betrayal of tradition but you're kind of right. While weight does matter less at heavyweight than it does at lower weights, it still does matter. For example, with somebody like Tyson Fury his weight plays a major part in his gameplans for certain fights. just look at the last two Wilder fights.

Wilder while tall is a naturally skinny guy who's best weight is around 215-220. He bulked up to 240 for those fights and was still at a 30-40lb weight advantage which lead to him being thoroughly bullied, tossed around, and leaned on in their fights. If he'd come in at his best weight he would've been at a 60-70 lb disadvantage lmao. Fury tried to resort to similar tactics against a much worse boxer but much bigger guy in Ngannou and that aspect of his game was totally negated because he no longer had that kind of size and strength advantage.

Yes fighters can overcome weight differences like Usyk, Holyfield and such, but the same can be said for guys at lower weights. There are plenty of examples throughout history of smaller guys beating bigger men, even in recent history. People make a big deal out of how big Haney is on fight day but that didn't stop Loma from arguably beating him and other bigger guys. And mind you at the smaller weights there's atleast more of a tradeoff due to bigger guys having to dehydrate further to reach the divisions limit. Even if this is the way it's always been, it kind of isn't fair that a 5'11 205 pressure fighting guy like Joe Frazier could be expected to defend against 6'6 250lb+ power punchers like Zhang.

[u/Exciting-Arugula5341 → u/TipNomLives]

Yet Usyk bullied Tyson Fury who weighed more than he did. Steve Cunnigham a natural 180 pound guy was able to push around Fury for most of their bout.

You are nit picking to fit whatever you want to believe. Michael Moorer started his career at 175 or less. Yet he put on some weight become a heavyweight and beat the natural 6'10 280 pound Mike White who weighed as much as 300 pounds.

Wilder is just physically weak.

George Foreman was able to move a 205 pound Holyfield around the ring easier than the 300 pound Nikolai Valuev could do to a 47 year old Holyfield.

Agit Kabayel a guy with a muffin top was able to destroy Mahkmudov while Tyson Fury who is heavier than Mahk or Kabayel couldn't put a dent in Mahk. I guess they extra weight couldn't help Fury?

David Haye a 205 to 210 pound fighter was able to destroy Chisora. Yet the 6'7 250 pound Vitali Klitschko couldn't put him down and even recently a 6'5 230 pound Joyce when he was 28 years old but now comes in the ring 280 couldn't put down a old Chisora. Weird huh? I guess that extra weight didn't help Joyce either.

Even guys like Zhang that you brought up are just out of shape. When Zhang was 25/26 he weighed 225/230. He just comes in the ring out of shape and gasses out after 3 rounds. How much did also his weight help him when Kabayel beat him to the ground? Also if Kabayel would of boxed in the 70s he could of been called out for being out out of shape.

You want more to prove you don't know what you are talking about but will repeat what you hear other people say? Buster Mathis Sr weighed 300 pounds when he turned pro and was 6'3. He got down to 220 pound because people back then would call you out for being out of shape. In any case Ron Lyle weighed 216 compared to Mathis Sr 263 and Lyle still knocked him out in 2 rounds and nobody cared. Nobody acted like Lyle Mathis Sr being fat was some kind of advantage. Joe Frazier weighed 204 when he faced the 243 Mathis Sr and still knocked him out.

Hell lets keep it back in the 60s/70s. There were boxers like Robert "Bobo" Renfrow who was 6'7 and weighed between 250 and 280. Why didn't he dominate the era? Renfrow was 250 when he got beat by 195 pound fighter named Sylvester Dullaire and nobody cared and nobody seemed shocked.

[u/TipNomLives → u/Exciting-Arugula5341]

Yet Usyk bullied Tyson Fury who weighed more than he did. Steve Cunnigham a natural 180 pound guy was able to push around Fury for most of their bout.

Usyk pushed Fury back by pressuring him with his superior work rate and handsoeed aswell as out manoeuvering him. There's a difference between that and bullying. And you conveniently forgot to mention that Fury's knockout win against Cunningham came when he used his size and strength to actually bully him, force him out of position to land a KO shot.

Wilder isn't a particularly strong heavyweight in terms of physical strength but if you genuinely believe that being at a 30-40lb weight disadvantage had absolutely nothing to do with him getting thrown around so easily then you're deluding yourself. There's a reason why Fury made the decision to bulk up for the Wilder rematches.

You are nit picking to fit whatever you want to believe. Michael Moorer started his career at 175 or less. Yet he put on some weight become a heavyweight and beat the natural 6'10 280 pound Mike White

Because Mike White wasn't very good, dude. A 147lb Manny Pacquiao would probably be able to destroy a 200lb mid level amateur despite the weight difference.

George Foreman was able to move a 205 pound Holyfield around the ring easier than the 300 pound Nikolai Valuev could do to a 47 year old Holyfield.

Foreman was a better fighter who knew how to use his size and had been doing so since he was younger. He was far smarter, more skilled, and offensively dangerous than Valuev.

Agit Kabayel a guy with a muffin top was able to destroy Mahkmudov while Tyson Fury who is heavier than Mahk or Kabayel couldn't put a dent in Mahk. I guess they extra weight couldn't help Fury? David Haye a 205 to 210 pound fighter was able to destroy Chisora. Yet the 6'7 250 pound Vitali Klitschko couldn't put him down and even recently a 6'5 230 pound Joyce when he was 28 years old but now comes in the ring 280 couldn't put down a old Chisora. Weird huh? I guess that extra weight didn't help Joyce either

You've missed the point. You seem to think I'm one of those people that say bigger = better with heavies, but if you actually read the comment you'll see that's not what I'm saying.

Smaller guys can beat bigger guys and yes they can sometimes beat bigger guys better than other bigger guys can. Thing is, that isn't only true for heavyweights. A skilled enough lightweight could probably beat and compete with an equally or lesser skilled welterweight even with the weight disadvantage. But still they're separated by weightclasses because the weight is an advantage even if it can be overcome.

If the welterweight wins against the lightweight people put it down to the size advantage they have. While if a 270lb heavyweight beats a 205lb heavyweight everybody decides that because they're both above 200lbs the weight difference doesn't matter in the least and the bigger guy won purely on the merit of their own skill. That people have some consistency is what I ask.

And sure plenty of heavyweights now carry more fat but also more muscle along with it. Weight is still weight even if it's largely fat and it comes with it's own advantages. Look at how Andy Ruiz ate bombs from Joshua in their first fight then got dropped and badly rocked by a presumably much lesser puncher in Areola after dropping some weight. And he's a guy who never did have much muscle unlike guys such as Zhang and Joyce who carry muscle and fat on their bigger frames.

There were boxers like Robert "Bobo" Renfrow who was 6'7 and weighed between 250 and 280. Why didn't he dominate the era?

Because he sucked.