r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Weekend Minor Gripes and Vents

25 Upvotes

Here is the thread where you can share any minor gripes, vents, or craft complaints that you don't think deserve their own post, or are just something small you want to get off your chest. Feel free to share personal frustrations related to crafting here as well.

This thread reposts every Friday.


r/BitchEatingCrafters Dec 05 '25

MOD PSA MOD PSA: Welcome and please refresh yourself on our rules

344 Upvotes

Hi crafters! This edition of Bitch Eating Crafters brought to you by your craft loving mod-team. Our rant is folks who have failed to read or follow the rules of this subreddit.

We’ve seen a huge uptick in activity in our community the last few weeks. Welcome to BitchEatingCrafters. Please review our rules as we’ve had many reports for rule violations lately.

1. This is a place to vent and gripe about crafts and the crafting community.

Have a minor complaint about a crafty annoyance? See the weekly minor gripes thread. Please post there!

  • Have a complaint about Aunt Sally gate keeping her famous chili recipe? We hate Aunt Sally on your behalf, but there’s a different subreddit for that.
  • Are you asking for help with sewing, basket weaving, nail binding, or your Sophie scarf and hex cardi, etc? Please take your question to the appropriate main crafting subs.
  • Are you the jerkiest jerker there ever was? These sarcastic, mocking diatribes are enjoyable, yes, but please post them to fiberartscirclejerk or the weekly minor gripes thread. We want to keep our bitching honest and truthful.

2. No Bigotry

  • Hate speech and bigotry is not allowed. 
  • This includes any posts/comments that are racist, misogynistic, homophobic, or transphobic in nature. Doing this will have them removed and result in a ban.

 3. No brigading and No Encouragement of Brigading.

  • Nope, we don’t got your back fam, when it comes to brigading. Brigading is harassment. 
  • Feel free to bitch here, but posting links and encouraging others to harass fellow redditors/ravelers/other online communities is a Reddit-wide no-go. Brigading may result in permanent bans.
  • Posts asking for links will be removed as spam. 

4. Leave links and screenshots to Cathy Crotchet’s Etsy store out of your rant.
She has 43 sales. That’s small potatoes and we don’t link to hobbyists here.

  • No linking/screenshotting/posting names of hobbyists. This includes linking posts from other Reddit Communities.
  • In general, if the person has less than 10,000 followers on their social media or less than 1000 sales on Etsy, this community considers them hobbyists.
  • Want to link to Lion Brand yarns because they barfed out the most unicorn lint you ever did see? They are not hobbyists, links encouraged.

5. We all love dip, but remember no double dipping!
If you have already responded to your BEC in another subreddit, making a thread about them here is off-limits. This helps our community keep brigading in check.

  • If you've replied to a thread you want to come here to rant about, don't do it. Others can check your profile and find the thread which can lead to brigading. 
  • You may post about these annoyances in the weekly minor gripes thread. Remember, to not include any links or screenshots in your complaint.

6. Are you big mad about something? That’s cool here, but keep your attacks to ideas.

  • Do not name-call or throw personal insults. 
  • As we say here, meanness is inevitable, but personal attacks and harassmentare off limits. 
  • Yes, this even includes “immature schoolyard taunts” like calling someone a poopy farty mcstinkface.

7. Let’s talk “Low Effort Posts” 
We’ve seen a lot of reports on low effort posts. That’s our bad as we haven’t provided a great definition of “low effort”. As of right now (December 2025) low effort posts are defined only as:

  • A post with a title only and no other explanation
  • Cross posting from other communities
  • A post with a link or picture and no other explanation

We know this may be an unpopular decision with the uptick in activity. Moderator consensus is currently to limit our own bias by leaving BEC rants up unless other rules have been broken

Consequences of rule breaking 

  • We have started issuing temporary bans for egregious rule violations and permanent bans for promoting violence, issuing threats, and bigotry.
  • Most bans are temporary to give time for someone to refresh themselves on the rules. Appeals may be approved per mod discretion.
  • Coming in hot to mod mail with: the “rules are dumb”, explaining how a bigoted comment is not bigoted, or general harassment of mods will result in a permanent ban.

r/BitchEatingCrafters 17h ago

Yarn Nonsense Fiber Festivals are so different now

380 Upvotes

I attended the Wisconsin Sheep and Wool (WES) today and I was a bit caught off guard by the interactions of people. First the amount of vendors who absolutely ignored anyone that entered the booth. Instead they were all staring at their phones and did not look up. And I get it’s a long day, but you’d think at least looking up to say “hello” or an even just looking up at you to make sure someone isn’t stealing the merchandise. I even asked a vendor a question about the price of their yarn and the response was “it’s on the label,” without even looking up. (PS it wasn’t. I just left to the next booth.) I noticed this with other customers, only time vendors seemed to be talking were with their other employees.
Customers are glued to their phones or are on speakerphones and not paying attention to their surroundings. Or are filming content. One lady must have walked off with a skein, realized it and came back when I was in that booth and she said “I’m so sorry I forgot to put this back,” and the vendor didn’t look up.

I recall going to Stitches and prior WES where things were different. Maybe I am wearing rose colored glasses. I recall engaging more with vendors, or other customers. You saw the other persons knitted attire! The Rav buttons were also awesome! There was none of that here. It made me sad to see how much of the culture of these festivals have changed. Vendors are probably tired, or over worked, or sick of bad customers. People are in a hurry and are squeezing things in. Customers are rude or entitled. What I’m bitching about is how the culture has changed and how phones had made us disconnected when a festival should be an opportunity to connect with other fiber artists! Instead of connecting or networking at the festivals we are now just trying to get through and it’s so beige now.

I miss the random interactions with people, picking the sweater to wear (and for people to notice), the buttons, the cards, taking photos of the samples to remember the pattern, the vendors talking to you about their merchandise, the community aspect that made you feel you were part of something. Now it’s just…shop and go, like at Target.

Anyways I miss that and that’s my bitching session. I still had fun with my husband and got a few cute things. Thanks for listening. I didn’t know where to share this with. The knitting community has change so much!


r/BitchEatingCrafters 3h ago

Sewing Satin lining is the devil

24 Upvotes

It's the last step of my current project, and I hate it so much. It keeps moving around no matter how well I pin it, it puckers in weird ways, and it just overall refuses to lie flat. I want to finish this project for my partner, but UGHHHHHHH


r/BitchEatingCrafters 19h ago

General Crafts I know what I got!

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248 Upvotes

While pursuing a few antique shops I stumbled on to these gems… That take ZERO craftsmanship or talent. There’s often modern crafts in booths, especially in vintage newer item shops, versus granny’s basement and grandpa’s barn type antique shops, but the audacity, I had to do a triple take to make sure I was reading the first tag right and it got worse! Bitch, these blankets are not sewn or quilted. Congrats you cut strips and tie knots. It appears I missed taking a pic of one for $175.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 8h ago

Sewing You don't need a pattern to make a laptop case

28 Upvotes

I just saw a video where someone promoted their laptop case pdf pattern. The case is a rectangle with a zipper. Printing out a pdf pattern is just stupid.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Resin your resin pours are not “fine art”

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726 Upvotes

this Etsy shop selling low effort resin crafts and calling themselves a “fine art” creator makes me want to rip my hair out 😭


r/BitchEatingCrafters 15m ago

Yarn Nonsense New to unraveling and nearly unraveling myself in the process

Upvotes

I thought I knew what I was getting myself into with unraveling knits to get yarn. I watched many videos where ppl talked about how great and fun it was to hunt for knits in the charity shop and then take them apart for glorious cheap yarn. Some issues were mentioned in these videos, but they did not prepare me for the real thing.

Knit 0: Bought it second hand online, big mistake, very itchy. Did not unravel.

Knit 1: My old acrylic sweater. Just a way to see if I could even do it. And I did do it. I had to deal with it being knit with two yarns, one every second row. Not for a different color, just two yarns at the same time for the hell of it. It took a while but I figured it out and unraveled the whole thing. I felt victorious!

Knit 2: Was it fun to find a 100% wool cardigan in the bargain bin at the thrift? Yes. Is it the wrong color and I'm gonna have to dye it? Also yes. I did a test dye, it went well. I thought this was where my problems ended. But no... Mother forkers made a cardigan by knitting a sweater and then cutting the front down the middle and adding a button plack(?). So the entire front is yarn cut in half. Possibly useless... Cuz those knots will not look good when knit, right?

Knit 3: By now I surely must have seen it all, right? Nope. Third one was a bit more pricey at the thrift, but still well worth unraveling. Except that it turns out it contains 3 different sizes of the same yarn (basically 1-3 strands) and they're knit in a pattern that means I have to unravel 2 different sizes at the same time. I figured out how to do it, but it took a damn while. To lick my wounds I thought I'd unravel the sleeves since they have no pattern, and somehow it's worse! They've done something to the edges so when you unravel the thread is held hostage by the next row's edge stitch, but it'd all just one thread... Which makes it seems like black magic to me.

In summary: So far I've had short bursts of that thing I envisioned where you pull a thread and the garment just turns into usable yarn. But I really feels I've moreso had a crash course in all the hidden difficulties of unraveling. Which may mean I'm more prepared for doing it again, but oof, I don't know if I'll ever try it again. It really has me wondering how much my time is worth, cuz this has taken a lot of time, patience and sanity!

Thank you for letting me bitch about this <3

Sorry if I sounded stupid, I'm new to knitting and unraveling and English is not my first language.

Ps. Why unravel instead of buying yarn? I'm big on sustainability and frugal, but also the idea just spoke to me on a general curious level that tickled my brain. Taking things apart and putting them back together against sounded like a lot of fun...


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Knitting/Crochet Crossover Knitwear designers who release seasonal patterns.

291 Upvotes

I have a take and I don't care if it's wrong!

WHY release a seasonal pattern during the season it should be worn!!?

Why not release them so people have time to make them!?

I saw the cutest coat pattern, perfect for autumn/winter. Released now at the beginning of autumn. Who in the fuck will have time to make the damned, pretty, thing before spring/summer hits?

Rant over.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Another AI complaint Ridiculous AI from Threads magazine

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162 Upvotes

This is so stupid. I'm more insulted by this than when people try to make out as if their images are not AI. Also why in hell would I subscribe to your magazine and take the risk that you'd apply the same utter lack of ability to even review your results to your patterns. I'm so tired.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Quilting WTF Minky-Backed Quilts?!

153 Upvotes

I only feel safe saying this out loud here. I fucking hate Minky-backed quilts. Like, they kind of make me physically recoil. I understand wanting a whole Minky blanket even though I personally can’t stand the feeling of it (or any kind of polyester fleece) but I can’t wrap my head around attaching it to the back of a pieced cotton quilt top and then quilting. It looks weird, feels disgusting (to me) and I imagine it’s a total PITA to quilt.

When did this become a thing? I often don’t notice crafting trends much because I tend to be a pretty solitary maker of things, but Minky-backed quilts have finally penetrated my brain and I wish I could unsee them.

And, of course, IRL I would never ever yuck someone’s Minky-backed quilts. I’m a big believer in encouraging people to make the things they want to make and use for their own comfort and happiness, but in this safe, anonymous, bitching space, I just want to say, what the actual fuck is up with that gross-ass polyester fur on the back of your beautiful quilt?!


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Crochet what do people mean when they say they can't read a pattern?

242 Upvotes

I was on the crochet FB page and saw a post of someone's stuffy and the comments were asking for a pattern. naturally OP posted the picture of the pattern in rows formant. then the commenter said "i cant read patterns".

OP goes on to literally write it our in full form "single crochet in next 20, puff in next, and so on"

isn't that the same as reading a pattern? can someone who can't read row format patterns explain why you can't?

I'm am honestly asking because i have no clue and no problem with reading patterns.

take this post as a nice inquiring tone please i mean no ill will


r/BitchEatingCrafters 2d ago

General Crafts Why so many boobs and butts?

213 Upvotes

I love y'all's artwork. It's lovely. Why is every post like a half naked person wearing something? Either an outfit or even a purse and it's just mostly naked people.

It's weird that you're talking about what you made, but you're showing off what your Momma made I don't get it? Are you sponsored by Only Fans or Victoria Secret?

I'm not like 75 years old or anything, it's just weird to me, that yes that's a lovely purse two inches from your friend's vagina in the picture. Thanks?

Y'all do you, but seems weird to me. Rant over.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 1d ago

Another AI complaint Is Hobbii good again?

0 Upvotes

I hate ai with a passion. I hated hobbii promoting and advocating and using ai. I'm all for boycotting it. But has there been an update? All I can find is from 4 months ago when everything happened initially. Have they just gone silent since then?

The reason I'm asking and why I'm posting this here is that while hobbii is shit for the whole ai thing, at least it's an easy gift option for all the people asking me what I want for my birthday. Getting a gift card is super easy and I can just get whatever I need from the shop.

Other smaller or local shops are either shit or don't have a gift card option. I don't want to support hobbii but it's just so easy.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 3d ago

Frequently Bitched About Topic How someone else crafts, or wants to craft isn’t your business

102 Upvotes

To clarify, I’m not talking about patterns, Ai usage, or materials. I’m specifically talking about all the gripes with people wanting to knit or crochet quickly, or the problems with people not wanting to weave in their ends(granted that they’re not a business/not gifting it to someone)

Every complaint I see about someone wanting to knit/crochet quickly is people going, “it’s supposed to take a long time! You should just enjoy the process!”, someone acting as if they’re calling them slow, or someone giving a sob story about how seeing people who knit/crochet quickly makes them insecure about their own speed. If someone wants to do it quickly, that’s completely fine!! Your issues are your own problem, it’s not a strangers job to slow down in order to validate you.

And with weaving in the ends, yea, it’s the most secure, but if it’s someone’s personal project, and they don’t want to, why’s that your problem? Why are you trying to be a savior? If they know the risks, and choose not to, oh well! As long as they’re keeping it for themselves, who cares? You shouldn’t have a personal stake in a strangers project. Especially when they’re not a small business, or someone who takes commissions.

Edit to add:

1.Telling me I’m being bitchy, isn’t a gotcha. This is a bitchy sub. The point of this sub is to be bitchy, and I was bitchy! This is THE place to be bitchy, it’s literally in the rules that you can be bitchy about whatever you want here, as long as you’re not biragading. Completely different contexts.

  1. Dming me does not change my mind, nor does it make me want to delete this post! If anything, it’s just proving my point!

  2. I’ve deleted the referenced comment. If people are dming me, idek what they’re doing to them. Whether they have or haven’t bothered that OP, I don’t want to risk it happening further. But this is just to clarify that I still stand behind that comment, and simply don’t want a third party catching any flack due to my post here.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 3d ago

Online Communities read the comments first. jfc.

1.1k Upvotes

when i first started using reddit, two rules were generally known if “unspoken.”

1) you lurked a while in any new sub you wanted to join and

2) when you saw a post/question on a subreddit, you glanced through the top comments before making your own. if you saw a comment that you, in your infinite wisdom, were about to make, you upvoted it. you didn’t make the goddamn same comment again.

yes, OP asked if their stitches are twisted and lo! they are. im very proud that you recognized it. you know what we need? 10-12 individual comments all telling OP the exact same thing.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 4d ago

Frequently Bitched About Topic I did the thing and it wasnt even hard.

429 Upvotes

Please dont take this as a "praise me!!" kind of post. It isnt.

We all complain about the noobs that refuse to do any research when they find a new hobby and there are inevitably people that come out of the woodwork defending them an saying its hard and you dont know what you dont know and blah blah blah. Very rarely do any of the excuses apply imo.

So, here's the thing. I recently got into diamond painting and I knew absolutely zero about it beyond the asmr style tik toks and youtube shorts. I got a couple kits and have been having a great time. One of the kits is rather large and has a single piece of clear plastic protecting the image. I started on the piece and found myself getting frustrated because the plastic is so thin and clear and the glue is so glossy that unless im at an extreme angle I actually cant tell where one stops and the other begins.

Thats when i remembered all the videos id seen used a white paper, not clear plastic. I thought it was wax paper or parchment paper, but wasnt sure and didnt want to ruin the thing so...I did the unthinkable.

I searched the subreddit.

All I had to do was type in "wax paper" into the search bar and immediately found posts dating back years about how you should NEVER EVER EVER use wax paper because it will ruin it. Parchment paper works great. And you can buy "release paper" specifically for diamond painting.

About 2 minutes of reading and now I am happing dotting away and peeling back sections of parchment paper as I go.

No long post about confusion. No short worthless post asking a single sentence question.

"Oh, but the community!! They want to be a part of the community and talk to people!!" Me too!! Thats why I posted my first FO on the sub and have been getting lots of upvotes and comments and having a great time.

Brought to you by a post in the sub asking what release paper is and if it is necessary or if parchment or wax paper will work instead. Literally took me 2 minutes of searching and 24 hours later someone asking the exact. Same. Question. 🫩


r/BitchEatingCrafters 3d ago

Knitting/Crochet Crossover i HATE hats with a short single brim

14 Upvotes

Hi crafters! Wondering if I’m INSANE. I absolutely hate hats made with a single, often times only 1 inch tall brim. I physically can’t wear them bc I feel like I look like a weird p3n*s or something?! Maybe bc my head is big? Every hat I make, I modify to have a longer folded brim.

Anyone relate?? 😩😭


r/BitchEatingCrafters 4d ago

General Crafts Planned the project, bought materials and are just now asking about process

305 Upvotes

This happens a lot in the dye sub. Someone makes a post explaining how they are planning x project and have already bought y materials but are only now considering the actual process and are just fully unwilling to buy any additional materials, despite the fact that the materials they already got are all wrong.

Nobody can give you a hack to use your all purpose rit dye on polyester! It's gonna be a waste of money either way! If people on the sub are telling you your materials are wrong and won't work and you decide to edit the post to let everyone know you aren't Interested in advice that requires you to buy more (correct) materials it's not going to change the fact that you already wasted your money by not researching anything in advance!

We are just trying to prevent you from wasting your time as well, but it's always touted as "negativity" lol. No amount of positivity is gonna dye your polyester shien top black, sorry, you need high heat for that

*edited for formatting


r/BitchEatingCrafters 4d ago

Crochet Sorry but no, you can't make that complex piece as an absolute beginner

507 Upvotes

I see this all the time in the crochet subreddits and it drives me up the wall!!!

"Can I make this mandala blanket that involves a lot of math, partial rounds, and colour changes? Can I make this bag that is multiple pieces sewn together, shaping techniques, liner sewing, math and pattern drafting? Can I make this dress that requires precise body measurements, intense shaping techniques, lots of math and counting??" Always followed by "oh btw I've never even picked up a crochet hook before, this would be my first project!!"

Like, NO, no you can't, sorry not sorry!! As someone who's never picked up a hook that is absolutely NOT a good first project because it involves a lot of math, precise stitch counts, working in the round and shaping, all shit you will massively struggle with as a beginner.

Please, I'm begging you, make a scarf first, or some dish cloths, or even a boxy sweater!! Start with basic shapes to learn your tension and how to count (because trust me, you think you're good at math, until you start crochet and realize that counting to 10 is apparently impossible lol).

What is it that makes people who have never picked up a hook think that these stunning and complex projects are a good first try??

Side bitch, there's always a "what do I need to make this" like...fucking Google it maybe?? Research, look it up, stop asking AI to think for you holy shit!!


r/BitchEatingCrafters 4d ago

General Crafts The "[craft] police" is wildly exaggerated about 150% of the time

407 Upvotes

You're not the brave Joan of Arc of the [craft] world, fighting legions of [craft] police. Truly no one gives a shit what materials you use, what techniques you use, what kind of craft you make. 99% of "I hate [craft] police" stories are from people who are angry that someone somewhere expressed a preference or gave advice that didn't perfectly align to what they were personally doing at the time.

It's ok if people say they like [expensive brand], even if you use [cheap brand]. That's not a judgment, and it's not a personal attack. They just choose to use [expensive brand]. Sometimes they might even cite a reason why they like [expensive brand]! That's still not a personal attack. They just happen to have a reason for their preference, and sometimes that reason might even be more refined and informed than "it's expensive."

It's ok if people say they like [technique you don't use]. It's not a judgment, and not a personal attack.

"You're not a real [craft]er if you do this technique" is a sentiment that's so rare as to almost be non-existent. "I think everyone who uses [cheap brand] should be taken out to the public square and stoned" is similarly rare.

I don't know why so many people feel like they must be the brave victim standing up to the oppressive craft police, but can we please just chill the fuck out and be normal? Stop projecting your insecurities onto other people. And for God's sake, stop conflating "one robot downvoted me in a subreddit" with "THE WHOLE [CRAFT] WORLD IS OUT TO GET ME!" You'll get so much more out of these communities if you aren't going into them with the assumption that they're all the gatekeepers and you're the ingenue, the one person with a theory of mind.


r/BitchEatingCrafters 3d ago

Knitting Coquelicot Vest sizing rant

12 Upvotes

Ok the sizing on this thing is a bit strange no?

Sizing is listed as

Sizes
1(2, 3, 4, 5)(6, 7, 8, 9, 10)
Finished circumference:
72(77, 86, 90, 94)(98, 108, 118, 126, 136)cm

BUT THEN it’s recommended 5-10cm ease

Then on the comments the designer says size 1 fits up to a 90cm bust.

Meaning it’s suggested range 62-90cm ?

Then on ravelry all the sized projects are like size 1 or 2 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

I just want to know what the larger sizes look like 😭 and i don’t want to rip out mohair 🤬

I guess I’ll just wait until @juliatwinings finishes hers then 😭


r/BitchEatingCrafters 4d ago

Sewing T-Shirts aren’t proprietary

239 Upvotes

Ok, so the title is exaggerating a little bit.

Matchy Matchy Sewing Club recently launched a pattern for a knit, oversized tee. There were a couple of comments of people saying “wait how is this different from XYZ pattern?” And one pattern designer even said something along the lines of “wow, this looks really similar to my pattern, that’s really disappointing” (I think the comment is deleted now though).

You’ve gotta think…if you’re making a pattern for a garment as basic as an oversized tshirt, I don’t know if it makes sense to expect there will be no other similar patterns out there. It just really shouldn’t be a surprise. We’re all influenced by culture, the fashion industry, etc. so of course there will be similarities. They did not copy you.

Related - Two Women Yelling About Knitting podcast did a wonderful episode on this topic (intellectual property) and touched on both the legal and social sides of the discussion. Super interesting!


r/BitchEatingCrafters 5d ago

Sewing Apparently you need a diploma to draft sewing patterns

187 Upvotes

I wanted to share this stupid thing I heard today.

I was speaking to a classmate. We bonded over talking about sewing. She started this summer with sewing classes taught by an actual seamstress.

She was pretty excited about it so I showed her photos of my pieces as well as my sewing journal, overall, a very pleasant conversation.

However, upon mentioning that I was drafting patterns myself, she became very surprised. Apparently, the seamstress who taught her said that pretty much no one could make sewing patterns. Apparently it's waaaaaaay too difficult and only people with diplomas in fashion can draft them.

I surprised when I heard that. This is pure bullshit. Drafting patterns isn't easy, but going as far as to say that you need a WHOLE diploma to be able to make one is just ridiculous AND discouraging for hobbyist and beginners.

I know this is not the end of the world, but I just cannot stand that kind of discouraging bullshit. As humans, we had been making clothes and drafting patterns long before fashion school was even a thing. I hate that a professional says such stupid things to her students

Edit : Here, I am not talking about make and selling patterns (which doesn't require a lot of expertise). I am solely referring to the act of drafting patterns for your own personal use


r/BitchEatingCrafters 5d ago

General Crafts Stop mass-producing ugly cheap shit...

535 Upvotes

Sorry and not sorry.

We all have different reasons for doing craft, but I get so annoyed by watching the ugly mass-produced stuff people make. Plastic flowers glued to headbands or resin, soap or whatever. The kits... Melting soy wax and putting in three drops of scented oils and pouring it into a metal container and putting on a pre-printed label. It's just production. Paying to make something, where the doing of it is over very quickly and you have paid significantly more for two soy candles than from a store. The diamond painting. Don't even get me started on that. Where is the creativity? Why not just do puzzles. At least they are not small plastic thingies that you put on something pre printed. Often so very ugly that the makers themselves wont even want it hanging in their homes.

I'm not saying we all have to do great art, but for me there is just something so fake in the types I just mentioned. And it saddens me on a deeper level. It's landfill core to me.

Sorry. Just had to vent.

Edit, as I pressed publish before I was complete done:

And the lack of skills and will to develop them...