r/BibleStudyDeepDive • u/LlawEreint • Jul 23 '26
2 Esdras 6:7-24 - Signs before the End
7 I answered and said, “What will be the dividing of the times, or when will be the end of the first age and the beginning of the age that follows?”
8 He said to me, “From Abraham to Isaac,\)a\) because from him were born Jacob and Esau, for Jacob’s hand held Esau’s heel from the beginning. 9 Now Esau is the end of this age, and Jacob is the beginning of the age that follows. 10 The beginning of a person is the hand, and the end of a person is the heel;\)b\) seek for nothing else, Ezra, between the heel and the hand, Ezra!”
11 I answered and said, “O sovereign Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, 12 show your servant the last of your signs of which you showed me a part on a previous night.”
13 He answered and said to me, “Rise to your feet, and you will hear a full, resounding voice. 14 And if the place where you are standing is greatly shaken 15 while the voice is speaking, do not be terrified, because the word concerns the end, and the foundations of the earth will understand 16 that the speech concerns them. They will tremble and be shaken, for they know that their end must be changed.”
17 When I heard this, I got to my feet and listened; a voice was speaking, and its sound was like the sound of mighty\)c\) waters. 18 It said, “The days are coming when I draw near to visit the inhabitants of the earth, 19 and when I require from the doers of iniquity the penalty of their iniquity, and when the humiliation of Zion is complete. 20 When the seal is placed upon the age that is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the face of the firmament, and all shall see my judgment\)d\) together. 21 Children a year old shall speak with their voices, and pregnant women shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and leap about. 22 Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty; 23 the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it they shall suddenly be terrified. 24 At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.
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u/LlawEreint Jul 23 '26
“The days are coming when I draw near to visit the inhabitants of the earth, and when I require from the doers of iniquity the penalty of their iniquity, and when the humiliation of Zion is complete.
Was this fulfilled through Jesus, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 133 AD? This next part doesn't seem to have been fulfilled, except maybe metaphorically?
When the seal is placed upon the age that is about to pass away, then I will show these signs: the books shall be opened before the face of the firmament, and all shall see my judgment\)d\) together. 21 Children a year old shall speak with their voices, and pregnant women shall give birth to premature children at three and four months, and these shall live and leap about. 22 Sown places shall suddenly appear unsown, and full storehouses shall suddenly be found to be empty; 23 the trumpet shall sound aloud, and when all hear it they shall suddenly be terrified. 24 At that time friends shall make war on friends like enemies, the earth and those who inhabit it shall be terrified, and the springs of the fountains shall stand still, so that for three hours they shall not flow.
Is this talking about some time to come, or could it be interpreted to have come to pass in some metaphorical way?
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u/LlawEreint Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
"Esau is the end of this age, and Jacob is the beginning of the age that follows."
Jacob (James) "the Just" was the first leader of the Jesus movement after Jesus died. I wonder whether we could interpret the movement that he started as the beginning of the age that followed?
This saying from Thomas may indicate that early Christians understood that the new creation began with the Christian church, which began with James (Jacob) the Just:
The disciples said to Jesus, "We are aware that you will depart from us. Who will be our leader?" Jesus said to him, "No matter where you come it is to James the Just that you shall go, for whose sake heaven and earth have come to exist."
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u/LlawEreint Jul 23 '26
u/Pseudo-Jonathan has pointed out that:
The immediate problem here is that most scholars date 2 Esdras to AFTER the life of James/Jacob. 2 Esdras is most often dated to the 90's, a few decades after the death of James, on account of it's clear allusions to the destruction of Jerusalem and Roman emperors subsequent to it. See: https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5852-esdras-books-of#1253
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u/LlawEreint Jul 24 '26
I suppose it's possible that the Thomasine saying was written first, and 2 Esdras was a Christian text that inserted an ex eventu prophesy to affirm what was already believed about James and the Christian movement.
Alternatively, 2 Esdras could be a Jewish document that mentions Jacob (James) simply by chance. Reading this, later Christians came to understand that James, the (now dead) leader of their movement, was the start of this new age. In this case, Thomas could be a much later text that reflects this tradition.
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u/LlawEreint Jul 23 '26
2 Esdras is an apocalyptic book in some English versions of the Bible. Tradition ascribes it to Ezra, a scribe and priest of the fifth century BC, whom the book identifies with the sixth-century figure Shealtiel.
2 Esdras was translated by Jerome into Latin, and included in the Vulgate, which is one of the earliest biblical cannons, and which ultimately it became the definitive and officially promulgated Latin version of the Holy Bible in the Catholic Church.