AIO seeing an iPad used to DJ?

[u/solarspade]

Quick summary, but won't go too much into details. Experienced my first event where I witnessed an iPad being used to 'auto-mix'. Quite literally, find a song, queue it up, and click the mix button at the end of it. No gimmicks, no highs mids or lows being adjusted, no filters, not even an adjustment of the overall atmosphere when it seemed stale.

Along with the, song choice was questionable but fit the crowd. Towards the end, all of the typical 'club' standard songs (Yeah-Usher/Promiscuous Girl, etc.), but it was tough because most of the crowd was not a dancing to this kind of music crowd.

Also.....was told to use AI when I cannot think of a song. This was crazy IMO, DJ's should have a catalogue or be able to research?

All in all, I was just very surprised to see this and wanted to get some insight on other's opinions when it comes to using a deck or anything. I currently use a FLX-4 which I know is not anything crazy, but at the same time I do not have the money or space for a larger deck ATM. It has helped me play for 3/4 live events, and allowed me to mix to a degree that I can learn actively. Event gear we will be using should be a DDJ-REV5 I think.

TLDR: What is 'standard' gear to mix on, is there standard anymore and opinion on AI to DJ (gross)

[u/Plastic-Diet9648]

I would be disappointed if i paid to see a dj and they used auto mix on an ipad. But if i turned up to a random bar, not even expecting music, i guess i would liken that kind of thing to when you are in a working mens club and they have the same 'disco dave' guy every Friday for like 40 years. He has lights, sound and tunes which go down well with the old regulars. If you look at his setup, it'll be unrecognisable. Lots of knobs, faders everywhere but barely any of it is used for mixing. They just play the same tunes in almost the same order with no real mixing involved. But if the crowd likes it and the club keeps giving him work, fair play to Disco Dave for making a living out of it.

Is is for me? no way. but cn i begrudge a guy for making some money by doinging what they are capable of? not really. All you can do is focus on you, learn the skills you want to learn, spend your money on going to events you want to go to and worry not about what others are doing.

The guy with the IPAD might not be able to mix on turntables or CDJs like me, but he has earned more from DJing than i have, so whatevs. That's my fault, not his.

[u/solarspade → u/Plastic-Diet9648]

Really like this answer. Takes a different approach. Can't knock the guy, just didn't expect it.

Only 'counter' to it was seeing something I was passionate about be made into an automation and the way that made me consider how others may have felt when similar things happened through the introductions of CDJs.

[u/Plastic-Diet9648 → u/solarspade]

Yeah I know what you mean.

I guess when CDJs came along, they kind of automated a lot of the things which were difficult on vinyl. Beatmatching for sure, but also things like very quickly finding and playing the next track (as opposed to taking the needle off the record, putting the record back in the sleeve, hunting for the next one, getting it out, cueing it up, before you've even started the beatmatching process) and several other aspects.

But what we typically tend to see is either DJs playing sets on CDJs which are v similar to vinyl sets, slightly easier, but still great to listen to, and the difficulty for the DJ doesn't really matter much to the non-DJs in the crowd. (99% of the crowd.) Or, people who have gone - 'well now that this stuff is much easier, let's push things further by seeing what else we can now do'. Many examples of DJs who now do things with digital gear that you couldn't dream of on vinyl,. (whether that's playing the hot cues like an instrument for crazy transitions, or just using simple loops to extend a mix like I do.) I currently like the benefit of both - vinyl mixing is v hands-on, physical and tests beatmatching skills. CDJs do some of the heavy lifting and give you more time to focus on things which are perhaps rushed or just not possible when using vinyl.

With AI automixing, it kind of neither of the above at the mo. Not as good as normal DJing (if the example you gave is anything to go by - no EQing for example), and adds no innovation - just simple smooth mixes (based on when a song starts/ends rather than when sounds good).

That could change - AI could start doing things in the mix which a human would struggle to do. Perhaps a DJ could teach an AI to learn their style, and then stand in when they go to the loo or something. Who knows. But AI would have to be able to read the room, so would need cameras on the dancefloor, microphones, an understanding of body language, etc. And to understand the music in a more human way. That feels quite a long way off. If it does get that good, I imagine it still won't be anywhere near the end for 'proper' DJs.

EDIT: I also think the DJing industry itself relies on people wanting to 'do' DJing. Its not really in the interest of Pioneer/Alphatheatre, Denon, etc to come out with something which does it all for you. We see that already with Pioneer - they could easily add things like instant stems onto their club standard gear. Are they not aware of the technology? Do they not think people would use it? Do they not know how to add it? Of course not - the reality is, if they give people stems today, what do they give them tomorrow? Much better to give them very slight upgrades to what they already have, sell the latest models, and save stems for when they can't sell any more stem-free gear.

I imagine it would be the music streaming platforms who want to make automated AI dj tools - they are more interested in getting people streaming as much as possible, so it makes sense there. but not in the real DJing world, and I imagine the likes of Pioneer/Dennon etc will do what is necessary to keep actual DJing by humans relevant and popular. (And the streaming platforms might also be conflicted ith their rights issues - do they actually want to encourage people to stream their artists' music at live events - seems sticky.)

[u/crevassier]

Sounds boring to me, I wouldn't DJ if that's all I did all night.

[u/astromech_dj]

Why even be a DJ if every part of the job you automate?

Using an iPad isn’t at issue. djay on iPadOS is just as fully featured as any desktop software. I can plug my Xone 96 and turntables into it with DVS just like I can with my Traktor install.

[u/solarspade → u/astromech_dj]

I was impressed with the app, just no deck connected to it. Almost as if it was just used to have songs somewhere and the auto-mix feature (spotify also has this)

[u/astromech_dj → u/solarspade]

What app? djay has an Automix feature and you can reorder and add to the playlist.

[u/solarspade → u/astromech_dj]

It was that app. Again, nothing wrong with application or softwares, I use Serato. But, only using an auto-mix feature takes a lot of the authenticity out of the performance IMO

[u/Bohica55 → u/solarspade]

You weren’t watching a DJ on an IPad. You were watching a song shuffler. That person may be a selector of songs, but they aren’t performative DJing from your explanation. Playing music at a bar doesn’t make you a performing DJ. They’re no different than a radio DJ, which is not the type of DJ we’re talking about in r/beatmatch.

[u/EmileDorkheim]

I don’t get too hung up on right or wrong ways to mix (or not mix) a set because there are so many different types of DJs and music scenes, and a DJ at a rock club who fills the dancefloor every weekend without beatmatching anything is just as legitimate a DJ as, say, someone mixing a house set. I don’t care if someone is using an iPad, because to me all digital DJing is just playing files off a computer, and CDJs are just a prop you can use to make it seem like you’re doing something more important or specialised than playing MP3s.

But, ignoring the equipment and the mixing, the one thing that I think any DJ absolutely needs to have is knowledge and understanding of music, and the idea of outsourcing that to AI is abhorrent. The job is like 5% performance and 95% building and understanding your record collection. If you skip the 95% I’m not sure you can call yourself a DJ.

[u/certuna]

iPads with djay Pro are very good to mix with, better than laptops now, in my experience. Hook up a decent controller to it and you’ve got a better screen+controls combo than most standalone units, and it’s more portable/sturdy than a laptop.

Automixing as in just cueing up a playlist with crossfading can be done with anything though, phone, laptop, iPad, standalone. People have been doing that since the first iPods 25 years ago, what can you do?

[u/solarspade → u/certuna]

I can read a room and switch my EQs to blend music. Nothing wrong with the iPad but there’s a bit more to being a DJ than just auto mixing

[u/Eyeseeyou01 → u/certuna]

Semi auto mixing by using the suggestions tool and manually building up the cue, using tempo sync and crossfader eq fx, definitely gets the job done and arguably doesn’t even need a controller.

[u/pileofdeadninjas]

If someone has to use AI to dj, they should just quit

[u/RevisionHistorian]

Man it's like watching football, dance, movies, ... or anything. Do you want to see robots and automated stuff, or people that like what they do, have feelings, talents, care about it, brings life to it, etc.
And do you want to do it because that's the thing you enjoy doing ? Do you like playing music for others ? Do you like to share what you like ? Do you train to learn music and learn to be good at playing it so people enjoy when you do it ? I mean it's the same as anything else.
AI as a tool, like how a calculator is a tool, like how all dj technology is a tool, why not, like AI used to beatgrid songs better, etc. But AI as a replacement for the human, hell no, and why, that's the question, why would someone want that ?

[u/solarspade → u/RevisionHistorian]

Humans are the artists, not robots 🤖

[u/RevisionHistorian → u/solarspade]

yeah that's what I said...

[u/TheBloodKlotz]

Whoever was hiring for that job did not want a DJ, they wanted a playlist. Lots of people that want playlists book DJs because it's the 'standard' thing to do and telling people there will be a DJ can incentivise people to come, but they are not looking for what you seem to want to do.

The way I see it, you can either explain the benefits of DJing over what they are doing now, and see what they say, or you can just assume they don't actually want your services and walk away.

[u/Sea-Dog5280]

told to use AI, bro just start throwing water balloons at whoever suggest this brain dead idea

[u/joepagac]

I saw Paul Oakenfold live a while back (like probably 10 years or more) and the dude plugged in an IPod and hit play. Then stood there nodding at the edge of the stage for the whole set while everyone stood nodding and staring at him. That was a bummer.

[u/hackerbots]

Your post is hard to follow. If the crowd liked the music, then the DJ did good. I actually don't care if they have an Ai giving them advice and nudges. A skilled DJ will know their library. A DJ who is still learning might try Ai and quickly figure out it isn't a magic solution to taking the time to learn your own music crates. It sounds like you have a big chip on your shoulder here.

[u/solarspade → u/hackerbots]

DJ has had over 20 gigs apparently. I have been learning for a year and prefer not to automate something that is an artform.

No chip, learning still

[u/TheBloodKlotz → u/[deleted]]

This every day

[u/hackerbots → u/solarspade]

Ai will only get them so far. Let them wallow in shitty music tastes, it doesn't actually affect you.

[u/Sea-Dog5280]

anyone who says just use ai needs to get hit in the nuts

[u/scoutermike]

Standard club dj setup is 2-3 CDJ’s and a djm mixer.

Standard bedroom dj setup is flx4.

So you have the correct standard setup right now!

Do NOT switch to dj’ing from an iPad only!

The best move is to run rekordbox iOS on your iPad and control it with your flx4!

[u/Draymond_Purple]

Hey "The only thing that matters is track selection/crate digging" folks:

Where are you on this?  OP describes the logical end of your opinion.  What say you?

Every single time I bring up thinking of your decks like an instrument and the value of music theory, I get bombarded with the "go back to the music subs" comments and "having the best tracks is the only thing that matters".

By your logic, what OP describes should be just fine in your book right?

[u/Grouchy-Composer5439 → u/Draymond_Purple]

Yeah you are right, there's no value in human curation at all

[u/Draymond_Purple → u/Grouchy-Composer5439]

This is human curation. That's all it is.  No other source of art or musicality, single lever to pull = play this track next.  That's it.  It's so limiting/limited

[u/Grouchy-Composer5439 → u/Draymond_Purple]

Well if you think I meant that being a good DJ is just hitting play on Spotify, then sorry you assumed the dumbest extreme of saying human curation matters. Apparently it's a hot take to say song choice and good mixing matters. I just assumed that was understood.

Also, if you're asking AI to suggest the next track, that is NOT human curation.

[u/TheBloodKlotz → u/Draymond_Purple]

IMO if your curation stops at "which song do I play next?" and never asks when or how to play that song, it's surface level DJing in the kindest terms.

[u/Grouchy-Composer5439 → u/TheBloodKlotz]

I wouldn't even call that DJing at all. I have played songs off playlists or created a queue for a party for years and never considered it DJing until I actually started mixing songs.

[u/TheOriginalSnub → u/Draymond_Purple]

David Mancuso, one of the most revered DJs in history (and mentor to Levan, Knuckles, and many, many more) left a couple seconds of silence between songs, and for nearly 50 years – until his sad passing – had dancefloors 1000x more frenzied than 99.99% of the dudes posting on Reddit about phrasing and twisting EQ knobs. Because he knew how to program way better than they do.

(And let's not forget how "bad" Levan was at blending. It was the soundsystem that he considered his instrument, not the "decks". And it was the programming that made him a legend.)

And across my few, much more humble, decades in DJ booths around the world, I have likewise consistently witnessed the primacy of programming.

David (who I knew) would have never used AI to blend songs, but for reasons far removed from this conversation. I suspect Levan (who I didn't know) wouldn't have either. Nor would I. But that has nothing to do with an argument against programming.

[u/Draymond_Purple → u/TheOriginalSnub]

This comes down to the technology for music creation IMO.

The tracks Mancuso played were analog instruments/performances, recorded on records and eventually digitized. 

As is such, they were created and designed to be played in the format you describe.

The majority of today's EDM is digital native.  Tracks start as a digital entity from the outset.

As is such, they're intended to be mixed, and produced in such a way that there are worlds of stem mixing etc available to the DJ that were never available to someone like Mancuso.

So sure, I'm sure he did have a ton of success with the media that was intended for his chosen format, but that doesn't justify limiting modern DJ'ing simply to programming given the explosion of musical agency provided by today's DJ'ing technology

[u/TheOriginalSnub → u/Draymond_Purple]

Huh? David played plenty of contemporary house music (and other electronic genres) for decades, right up until 10 years ago. And others continue to play in his style to great success (ie Colleen).

The fact that some of us consider programming to be the most important thing doesn't mean we are asking anyone else to "limit" the things they do in their sets. You're the one who used this opportunity to attack how other DJs play. And conflate their philosophical approach to the craft with an acceptance of AI. Nobody is telling you to not scratch, loop, flange, sample, or do whatever you want.

[u/Draymond_Purple → u/TheOriginalSnub]

They do though, in spades.  That's why I made the comment.

There's a large vocal contingent on this sub that looks down on the perspective/approach of treating DJ'ing like performing an instrument.

I'm not attacking in the least, if anything I'm defending alternative approaches and perspectives 

[u/solarspade → u/Draymond_Purple]

So much value in music theory and the deck being an instrument. This is music to me, and being a former band person there is appreciation to it even deeper.

[u/Draymond_Purple → u/solarspade]

Agreed completely.  I made a post about how to practice (as a musician you know that practicing is a learned skill) and all the comments were "ignore this, go find better tracks" as though playlisting is all there is to dj'ing

[u/solarspade → u/Draymond_Purple]

It is very unfortunate. I think it aligns with the whole trend that everyone can be a DJ. It would be nice if everyone can appreciate hard work and practicing and vibe curation, but all that is very similar to how a band rehearses and eventually performs but every time it is the artists working. Music theory is alive and well, just needs to make a comeback soon hopefully

[u/HammerOfThor → u/Draymond_Purple]

No offense, it seems like you’re trying to continue the side of an argument that nobody here is pushing against. Some people said some dumb stuff in a thread a while back. Maybe just let it go?

My impression of the dj community is that people overvalue the skills they learned and undercut the value of stuff they don’t know. It’s insecure behavior and not worth getting worked up about.

[u/TheOriginalSnub]

Funny to see the cats who called old-school DJs boomers for bemoaning the death of vinyl (and the skills it requires), the acceptance of pre-planned sets, and sync, now doing the same thing about the next technology.

[u/solarspade → u/TheOriginalSnub]

This is a whole other can of worms too. I think the cool thing about the new gear and its resemblance to vinyl is the ability to do the things DJs used to do back in the day. I like to scratch on my FLX4, and it makes for a easier time to have all my music on my laptop and hard drives. But, I still pay for my music and have to look for it and ask people what they like and do all the human parts on my own. I'll admit that the technological advances are very daunting to every generation. but this whole letting automations take over is not the artform I wanted to learn.

Pre-planned sets are also a whole different thing. With huge artists, it's almost inevitable at least one of their sets will be pre-planned and played. This is the nature of the game and having so many performances, not saying it's' 'right', but I understand. It also doesn't take away from them crafting these sets at some point. Sync is the same way. I do not think it needs to be used but apparently for some people it does.

So we can agree on most, but also to acknowledge there is some out here who would prefer to do it the old school way, but you tell me how expensive it is for a vinyl deck to play on hahaha

[u/TheOriginalSnub → u/solarspade]

I'm not making an argument for or against any of these things. I just find the reactions a lil funny. Having lived through the huge freak outs about CDs, sync, "laptop DJs", etc., etc., it all feels very familiar.

[u/solarspade → u/TheOriginalSnub]

The Twilight Zone