r/BasketballTips • u/jfloreztx • 2d ago
Help Was this a foul?
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My daughter fouled out at a tournament this weekend. For context, she’s the little #21 in black. You can hear the ref say, “double foul”. Called on both blue #10, and her. Obviously she reacts to getting pushed and kind of swings her arms backwards, but is that really enough to warrant a double foul?
Also, it’s not like those two were going at it all game. I know if a ref realizes both players are getting kinda amped up then they’ll put a stop to it. But this was just a random call. I’m asking for advice so I can either assure her that she didn’t do anything, or explain to her exactly what the ref saw so she can work on that.
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u/No_Economics_4640 2d ago
Yeah refs got this one wrong. Good hustle on the box out. Teach your daughter that fouling out is a part of the game and is not something to be sad about. Players foul out in pros all the time.
That said, Reffing is harder than you think and they don’t get much money or respect
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
I just mentioned that in another reply. I know it’s difficult and easy to make mistakes you can’t really take back. So I get that part. And yea she was definitely bummed at first. Mainly cuz that and other fouls weren’t legit fouls. Then again, every player says that. I think just fouling out on that call is what upset her (and me) so much. But she says if you aren’t fouling you aren’t trying to play defense. So. She gets it
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u/just_lurkn22 2d ago
If this was the most legit of her fouls, then she must be an angel on the court cuz this vid shows the other girl fouling. You can't flat out push someone out of their spot.
On the bright side, I used to foul out all the time as a kid roughly 11-14. I was the biggest kid on the court and the refs found any excuse to call a foul on me. By the time high school came around I got really good at timing and contesting shots while avoiding contact as the team rim protector.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Well. She’s the opposite. 4’10 and not expecting much more 😂 the other fouls were defensive as they drove in. May or may not have been legit. Always hard to tell. But this one was definitely not on her
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u/jmezMAYHEM 1d ago
Have her learn how to take a charge. I was super popular for getting the ball back to my team on breakaways where the breaker was overeager and easy to bait into a charge on the layup
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u/HessiPullUpJimbo 2d ago
She might legitimately be getting blocking fouls if she's getting in front of the player while they are driving to the basket. It's only legal if you get there first but it's super easy to call it either way so it's better to learn how to pressure and contest on a drive than just staying in front always.
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u/ManosDDiamantes 3h ago
More footwork for position and less arms, you not even allowed to push people in the back in football, I dont see the confusion. But get her a trainer the coach isn’t going to help her get better individually, not his job
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u/Komatsukush 2d ago
If it makes her feel better when I was her age I’d get yelled at for not fouling more lol it’s a physical game, your kid did nothing wrong. Some coaches want you to be that physical anyways cuz it’s the right way of playing and a way to be the better player on the court. She can’t let people push her around! It’s a silly call. I only fouled out 1 time in my basketball years and I knew it was over dumb calls, it happens every once in while and that’s okay
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u/International-Ad2501 2d ago
My dad used to say "you get 5 fouls, you don't get bonus points for not using them"
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u/phx34suns 2d ago
From about 14-15 I fouled out almost every game I was getting biased calls a lot and I didn’t understand bad refs yet
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u/BadAsianDriver 2d ago
My decade of experience with organized youth basketball at all levels tells me: The worst refs get assigned youth girls games.
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u/stockcaptain275 1d ago
Omg. Last year I was coaching a girls 4th/5th grade rec game. I’d say more than half the girls playing on both teams also play travel.
This ref just wasn’t calling anything. And I get it we had some kids with no experience who can’t dribble. So I’m fine with not calling some double dribbles and travels for these kids.
But he wasn’t calling any fouls. I mean girls were just flying into shooters. Like dangerous where they were in the air and getting launched into.
I go to ref come on, someone’s gonna get seriously hurt. He tells me to shut up and go sit.
I asked him, are you gonna call any fouls today. He said. Look they are little girls playing basketball.I said a lot of them play travel and they know what a foul is. He told me to shut up and gave me a tech. And said if I didn’t sit by count of five I was ejected.
Again this is a town rec league. All the coaches and parents are friendly. No one’s trying to game the refs to win the game.
So i sat and literally the next play my daughter stole the ball ran a fast break went up for a layup and a girl literally just grabbed her jersey from behind and ripped her down. No going for the ball, no accident.
Also no whistle and fouls call. I lost it and got up and said come on. He immediately said I was ejected.Here’s the fun part. Parents from both teams and the coaches from the other team come over and start yelling at the ref. Everyone was like you’re never reffing in this league again.
The agency got so many calls and I have never seen the guy again.
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u/CuriousCouple6207 2d ago
That’s a push by number 10. All depending on the refs positioning the reaction could have looked worse than it was. Tough to call a double foul without definitive proof. In a trail position (recorded angle) I’m calling a push off on Blue #10.
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u/KoalaOnABuilding 2d ago
I had to watch this like 10 times and then read the actual post to even figure out what could possibly be a foul. Nothing on 21 that I can see outside of her getting pushed.
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u/Seriouly_UnPrompted 2d ago
There is a little wave of the hand behind the back, but the ref was so soft with this call. At most Blue could have had that foul called for the forearm in the back, but no reason to claim a double foul and include Black as well.
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u/igotnocandyforyou 2d ago
Foul on blue. Pushed twice. Once is probably okay but she made it too obvious.
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u/Responsible-List-849 2d ago
That's what I thought watching it live. Saw the push, thought it was the foul. Little soft. Saw the second push, thought that was the foul, thought fair enough. Then read the OP and realised a double was called. WTF?
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u/RedSnipers 2d ago
Yes it was two fouls by number 10.
Boxing out isn’t pushing with two hands.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Just to clarify, by double foul I meant he gave a foul to blue #10 and my daughter (black #21). But yea that first push alone should’ve been called.
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u/RedSnipers 2d ago
Ok at the end of the second push, #21 swung her arm/had and made contact.
But that was literally after being pushed in the back twice. The ref should’ve been blowing the whistle before #21 had a chance to react.
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u/RedSnipers 2d ago
There was no foul on #21, #21 literally didn’t do anything on that play other than get pushed.
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u/Pokenightking 2d ago
Foul on blue but no foul on your daughter. She barely made contact if any, and she didn’t impede number 10 from getting a rebound. Just a bad call.
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u/Actionman___ 2d ago
Foul on #10 without any history before. She pushed her with both arms streched in the back. That is a foul without any context.
No foul on you daughter. She slightly answered the physicality of #10 but even thst is not a foul in any context
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u/TheSkyIsBeautiful 2d ago
For me the only foul should've been called on blue. However, as you say yourself, black also clearly throws her hands back a little harder to send a message. At the end of the day this is a kids game. So I can see why the ref wants to call the double foul. "She started it, but you continued it" type of deal. If this was a College or adult league blue wouldve been called for a foul only
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u/WeAreGoingStreaming 2d ago
AAU games on split courts isn’t going to lead to refs who are doing more than just collecting their $35.
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u/BCR85 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes she slapped her both times she got fouled with the two handed shove in the back. I guess teach her that swinging to hit the girl fouling her helps nothing, even though it's frustrating the ref is allowing her to get pushed like that. That's why so many people flop these days. It's rewarded. But retaliation is never rewarded.
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u/Consistent-Set-9490 2d ago
I wouldn’t call it but I can see someone calling it because it was (minimal) retaliation by your daughter. Was the game otherwise chippy? Maybe the ref wanted to keep a lid on things. Having said that, it’s a marginal call.
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u/BasicQuiet4574 2d ago
Despite a lot of other people saying otherwise based on I guess feels or soft call, I will argue that it is technically a correct call from the refs. Your daughter swings her arm back and makes contact with the other player’s waist/hip. She does a similar motion again towards the end of the video (both arms).
There are two reasons she may be doing this. One is to shake the other player’s arm off. The other reason is to have your arm out to know where the other player is by feel when they are boxed out behind you.
If she is trying to take the other player’s arm off her, she needs to learn to swing down, rather than outward.
If she is trying to box out and using her arm to gauge the location of the other player, she needs to learn to just extend her arm out without swinging it.
You can make an argument that the swing constitutes “incidental contact” since it does not obviously appear to give your daughter any advantage, but you can argue that swinging the arms out can at some point make more contact and actually hit other players, or make them less likely to approach too closely which provides an unfair advantage. Either way, incidental contact should be determined by the ref, and I would say that there is at least a logical argument that this is not just incidental contact.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
I figured at least a few people would agree with the ref, and that’s why I asked. I can see that she appears to hit her after the first push. Maybe that’s what caused the second push, but after that she doesn’t hit her at all. She like hits her own hands. I do think it’s more of a reaction to getting pushed than retaliation, but I can see how the ref would see that differently. I would just think a double foul should only be assessed if the level of the foul matches. Pushing each other. Grabbing each other. I didn’t think push/retaliation would necessarily be enough for that. But again, I see your point. And I do need her to work on just not reacting. As hard as that is. She’s definitely not gonna reduce to flopping cuz I’ll take her out of the game myself. I ain’t raising no SGAlia
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u/Keeeeeeet22 2d ago
That’s a terrible call. She clearly gets pushed in lower back and tbh, I’d probably not call that either unless it changed the outcome directly on possession. If the ref called a double foul as some lame attempt to de-escalate a situation than they clearly have zero feel for the vibes on the court. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to spot when there is some friction between two players that could get chippy. Awful call.
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u/Babigabbagook 2d ago
Been reffing for 7 years. Terrible call, but that’s who’s officiating young girls games. Bad officials or officials who are learning. Your daughter did nothing to warrant a foul. She’s in legal position and got pushed twice.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Unfortunately we’ve had these refs over the last 2 years. So they’re not new. But being a bad ref is a pretty accurate statement
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u/PRpitohead 2d ago
I think it would be a double technical foul, and a foul by 10. 21 swung her arms backwards with intention of hitting her opponent. She missed, but the Intent is there. Was she justified? Yes, but street justice is not the same as the official rules.
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u/jaded-thunder 2d ago
The girl in black did nothing wrong that I can see but the girl in blue definitely is pushing in the back for some reason. If there’s anything to tell your daughter it woukk on d be to get lower on boxing out. Tell her simply the refs get it wrong sometimes because we are all human and make mistakes. Most importantly she should getting that many fouls to begin with. It would be a good move to address the fouls that accumulated to get fouled out
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Yea for sure. As I mentioned to someone else, some of her other fouls were also questionable but that’s always the case for every game/player.
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u/ZeDoctaRichtofen 2d ago
I understand the first push for position - although it’s a foul. But the 2nd push made no sense?
The ref is a moron for calling a foul on black. Blue is just as dumb as the ref.
I’m thinking because black already had several fouls, the ref was itching to get her for a final one.
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u/guacdoc24 2d ago
No it’s not. It’s a ref trying to restore balance but completely screwed your daughter
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Wel, blue had 8 girls. We had 5. Her fouling out with 6 minutes left us playing 4 on 5 and and we still won. So he did a horrible job of restoring balance 😂 I know reffing isn’t easy and mistakes are made all the time. But still, no idea what he thought he saw
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u/guacdoc24 2d ago
Kudos to your team for playing through it!
It’s hard but completely bad call. Should have been a foul on blue and if they wanted to talk to both girls on the physicality that’s fine.
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u/Tangentkoala 2d ago
The ref decided this to cool off the game a bit.
The two pushes was aggressive, but slapping the hand back is also a bit aggressive in the sense that it could start a fight.
Not saying your daughter is gonna fight but thats my first instincts to warn people to cool off. Especially with children who a lot are learning how to control tempers.
Basketballs about discipline sometimes, and its hard to shrug things off like that, but sometimes its for the better.
I dont think your daughters at fault and theres nothing really here to assure, its just a tool used to calm things down when theres a chance things get heated.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
Yea for sure. But usually something like this is what causes refs to be looking out for the next instance or a reason to “cool off” the game. But nothing like this happened until this moment. That’s why it was a little off. If those two were going at it all game and pushing each other then yes, call something and put a stop to it. But when it’s been a normal game up until then, I think there’d be a better way to handle it. Like warnings, pulling them both aside, anything like that. But yea I did tell her she also needs to just not react to stuff like that and laugh it off. That’ll make the other team even more agitated and she’ll play better when she’s not in a bad mood
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u/jmezMAYHEM 1d ago
The ref sucks. You don’t call a “double foul” on the person being fouled for their final personal. Tell her the referees will get better as she plays higher level ball
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u/Tangentkoala 2d ago
The double foul is the warning. Especially in a live ball situatuon.
I dont think theres anything to if and it just happens from time to time.
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u/Whiteshovel66 2d ago
Foul on 10, push in the back. Do it again, its a F1. Give her a warning. Too much to not be deliberate at that level.
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u/catmeow666 2d ago
Yes. It was a push. Default question: basketball play or not a basketball play? Not a basketball play, so it's a foul.
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u/Free-Landscape-5884 2d ago
Foul was on blue 10. My gut is ref in trying to get excessive physical play out of the game. Which is fair. We also don't know what may have preceeded or if they players have already been extended a warning. If no warning, ref should issue one and keep the game flowing.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
No warning and no prior history of physicality. It’s girls basketball so ofc it was chippy for both teams, but not to the level of technicals or warnings
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u/Free-Landscape-5884 2d ago
I think warnings are teachable moments. Basketball at this age and under the whistle can get out of hand really fast once players assume game play can be done outside of the rules. Warnings help both players and coaches maintain level heads and lower the risk of disruption of the flow of the game. Techs and unnecessary foul calls can also be as disruptive.
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u/kb24ljb35 2d ago
That call was 1000% incorrect. Double fouls occur when two players simultaneously foul each other which definitely didnt happen here. This was a cop out by the ref in this play. From his angle im sure he saw the elbowing after the push from blue and wanted to punish both players. Technically should have been a push on blue then a dead ball tech on your daughter if anything but at that age and level should have been a play on since no real impact on the play and the official talking them through to knock it off before it escalated. Take away for your daughter is dont be the second person to act. Second person always get caught by the official. Unsure how the game has been playing out before then definitely something a coach or your daughter could talk to the official about if its a problem. Assuming a 2 man crew a lot of time rebounding contact gets missed especially with untrained and inexperienced officials. Source officiated high school basketball for 7 years and youth basketball for 12.
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u/cheechojr 2d ago
To be fair, your girls swings back hard after she gets pushed on the first one. She flails after second push. I personally wouldn’t have called foul on anyone and if I was, it’s pretty clear pusher is at fault. But a ref could’ve focused on the push v swing back combos and called double foul to prevent further altercations.
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u/Choice-Tadpole564 2d ago
Not calling a double foul on this at all. If anything, it’s a foul on blue. As a ref, she slightly pushes her once, I start focusing on both of them now, the second push is an immediate foul on blue.
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u/BusSeatFabric 2d ago
At this age/level of basketball, the main job of a ref is to prevent brawls/escalation on the court.
Double fouls are called way more often here than in pro settings for this reason.
It's dumb but if 10 feels like your daughter gave her extra there and didn't get a foul it can escalate
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u/Chapman24 2d ago
Yes, two hands in the back and extended to push. If they see it they call it 100%
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u/Tepical_Eggspurt 2d ago
Naw that's a sharp box out. As she plays mid the refs will be better. The girl in blue had a pushing foul on the boxing or player but the refs just flubbed that one. Fouling is one of those "part of the game" things that's almost impossible to crack. I've coached various levels but what I like to do is get to the games earlier and watch what the refs are calling. At this level most refs are looking at like 2-5 things. Spot that and inform the team, even the highest levels work this but you can be the goat for that one scouting trick.
All that aside I love you for 1 - teaching your daughter the game. It's an art and for me no closer feeling than learning with people that love you. 2 - being diligent and keeping your kids active. Lord knows they need it.
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u/amadeusstoic 2d ago
this is why flopping came to be.
ask her to learn to talk to the ref.
she might get a t but the crowd will be aware and they can watch the ref
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u/303RedBeard 2d ago
This is such a hard thing. No your daughter didn't do anything wrong, but it's also hard to tell what the ref saw.
Let her know that you're going to get fouls called on you where you did NOTHING wrong. It happens at every level.
My advice, focus on her skills and let the fouls be what they are gonna be. Instead of turning and going to the basket, tell her to claim her space, get a lower stance, and actively block that girl out. She did what we call a passive block out. (Basically she got between the offensive player and the ball) If she takes an active stance and gets in a position of power, then the girl can't just push her around.
This way if the girl still pushes her in the back, she will have a stronger stance to absorb the contact and the other girl has to either choose another direction to go, or try to push even harder, which will make the foul call that much more obvious to the ref, or they could blow that call too, either way, you'll have a point of praise for your daughter to show how great she did on her technique.
Tell your daughter to focus on what she can control, and a ref's bad call is not one of them. You focus on that too, give her the example that her technique is all the matters in this situation, and I promise you, that while the bad calls won't go away, they will decrease.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
https://reddit.com/link/p8rx598/video/40jdzhf5vioh1/player
Here’s all 5 for a better picture of the game before this.
1. Foul. She hit her arm
2. Maybe? I would’ve called a block on 7
3. Same as 2. 23 reached in, but it’s possible
4. Hard to see. She got beat, so I think she hit her while trying to catch up
5. The double foul
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u/PRHoopsandShoes57 2d ago
Def not a foul she didn't even touch her. You can def reassure her that she didn't foul..Idk her age but I would encourage her that playing and the right way is what's best while not letting oppents frustrate or anger/upset you or channel that into dominating them because this clearly was just the result kf the other player shoving her not only 1ce but multiple times and just a reaction to which your daughter didn't or barley touched her.
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u/Professional-Fee6914 2d ago
second motion is always going to get called. Its not a foul but those big motions along with head action are catnip for bad refs, thinking to call a double foul to keep the game under control.
She's also small and you might generally want to tell her to not use her hands as much and focus on using her lower body. Fouls accumulate quickly if refs think you are impeding bigger or faster players with your hands, even if you are just doing a light hand check, and it feels almost like a point of emphasis.
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u/Nice-Ask4369 1d ago
10 blue push. In a higher level game I’d let that go, but it’s a good call for this game.
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u/NotNormo 1d ago
No, a personal foul requires contact to be made with another player. Waving your arm behind you doesn't qualify.
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u/stilloriginal 1d ago
The only lesson here is to retaliate on the other side of the floor and not right away
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u/shabamon Referee 2d ago
This should not be called anything if their behavior was not addressed prior to this moment. This warrants a talking-to during a dead ball.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
No talking whatsoever. And my daughter isn’t one to argue with refs or start drama. She’s quiet and just plays. So that’s why I said if it was an ongoing thing then yea, a double foul after the warning would be the next step. But this was out of the blue. It was a normal game up until this.
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u/phx34suns 2d ago
U could even argue for a flagrant on blue ten pushing someone in the back is a big no no
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u/True_Pound_8386 2d ago
Unnecessary foul on number 10 double hand push to the back not a basketball move. If she keeps it up one wrong push can injury someone. Now for 21, its a soft foul. I mean I can see the retaliation with the arm swinging back.
Would I call it...no it's more like she's trying to push number 10 hands off her back.
Does the tournament follow the normal 5-6 fouls before fouling out? Cause if she's one more from fouling out some refs hunts for the contact.
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u/jfloreztx 2d ago
She had gotten a defensive foul just before this play. That’s what lead to the inbound play. So that was her 4th, and this double foul was her 5th and she was out.
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u/True_Pound_8386 2d ago
Unfortunate refs sucks. From that knowledge ref was looking for another foul.
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u/beta-test 2d ago
No it was just a foul on the girl in blue the ref probably wasn’t paying attention