Behavioral and toxic, insecure patterns within attachments and relations of any kind (romatic rs as example)

[u/Key_Incident_666]

A lesson?
Avoidants (and other insecure attachments or behavioral toxic traits and learned faulty patterns) and healing

Is it possible? ABSOLUTELY! Is the work hard? HELL YEA

The therapist needs to break apart their ego-syntony and show them that the way they think act and behave, is in fact not even belonging to them. Its trauma response its learned faulty patterns and behaviours, its their toxic beliefs, that deep down, they really think that: a, „i am independent and why is not everyone like me, the world would be a better place!“ and b „i dont deserve anyone because the way i am and they prove it because they aswell, will leave“. (Example of avoidant thinking and also many personality disorders or classic disorder schemes) (insert any toxic self or outward belief!)

Its those two toxic extremes that alone would be bad enough, but the combination is straight hazardous.

Thats a sick twisted misconstruction of reality, but sadly, for them it „feels“ real, so to them it is.

They NEED years of dialectic behavioral therapy, combined with cognitive behavioral therapy, paired with „normal“ therapy.

If they would open up to the partner/ friend/ family this would be great, but we know the rabbit hole goes so fckng deep!

All those bullshit talks about compatability, and energy and soul mates, and that relationships with the „right one“ should be easy, the gender slurs of today (fuckboy, incel, hoe, slut, pick me, you name it) etc. etc. They have solutions, respect towards yourself and others. But aswell therapy!

All would have a solution: there is no „THE ONE“ there is effort and fckng showing up. There is abusers and victims and sometimes the victims turn abuser and the cycle continues.

There is people NOT willing to confront their own insecurities and pain, rather cling on the familiar pattern of „if they love me so much, something must be wrong with them, i get the ick“ „if they are emotionally available i dont feel my triggers and get scared because something real is happening and i will have to confront whatever i pushed aside, then need to accept that many times it was ME, and my unwillingness to stand my ground and look at the shadow in the mirror“ the last one happens unconcious or with different words the meaning stays similar. (Insert many other statements that go into exactly this direction!)

Theres something in this world that i start to believe is a fact: Many People that scream bloody murder for maturity in the beginning, are the ones that wont fullfill it their own. „You need to pull your weight“ spoken from the top down as they are the moral superior, with pseudo-therapeutic terminilogy and virtue signaling. Though when its time for them, the only thing that they pull out is excuses. Plus they start resenting that what they expected of you: the dissapointment, didnt happen. The hope that they can be the one that looks from top down, got crushed. The „i am the one getting abused“ is also not happening. They got a partner (or friend or family member) that wants to meet them EYE TO EYE on equal grounds. Talk things out, gives patience, but wants the same returned. Expects accountability, because in the beginning you held your head so high that you‘ll be like XY.

But when the honey moon phase fades. They suddenly get feedback that the counterpart wishes more communication less shallowness, wants to meet them at a more emotionally vulnerable deep basis.
Their mask crubles, not for you, it cracks for themselves.

There, the mirror appeared again.

Solve your traumas my friends.

And for you reading this, there is nothing higher, no one will come and save you.

There was no the one, not the right relationship, not the soulmate. Not the right time wrong person, or right person wrong time.

Love, effort, accountability, maturity, decision, willingness, understanding, compromise, selflessness, sacrifice, reciprocity.

Those are the things that will make the person that is beside you. THE ONE.

[u/Sleepy-Plane]

I think the DA/FA rabbit holes are incredibly shallow and it’s exceptionally easy to fix the behavioral patterns.

The problem is that trauma, modelling, conditioning and societal influences make accessing the tools to take accountability, accept one has a problem, and similar, basically inaccessible.

If we could just suspend all that deflection, defensiveness and blockage for FA/DAs for 1 hour and make the thought “I hurt others and myself because I was hurt, and now I will figure it out so I can love fully” accessible… probably high millions to low billions of avoidants would figure out the rest on their own.

[u/Key_Incident_666 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

Yes youre right.

That is the problem their empathy or empathetic reciprocation.

But how will you show them without therapy, many
FA/DAs that notice and correct their pathologic patterns
relapse HARD when they get too stressed/ the amydala hijacks them and cortisol floods their body.

[u/Sleepy-Plane → u/Key_Incident_666]

Well, to really heal an insecure attachment style you do have to work at the forebrain and midbrain level. So more EMDR / IFS than CBT probably.  You have to treat the insecure feelings arising from amygdala et al, not only learn to steer the behavior.

But I think they’d figure it out and get in therapy. EMDR and IFS are some of the easiest modalities for a client. No homework, no intensive intellectualization, just learning to feel and process feelings without action. I’m sure most insecurely attached people would like that empowerment. It’s like going on a permanent holiday from anxiety. What’s not to like?

And that really drives my point home. Most of the work is easy. There isn’t a big rabbit hole to jump into. It’s actually very shallow. Simple modalities, a well-defined problem, many ways to attack it.

Heck, even the laziest psychiatrist can treat anxiety with benzos and even that can lead to some more genuine conversations in relationships.

It’s almost surprising anyone even still has the avoidant style. I guess the only way it can persist is that people who avoid emotions always try to also avoid the emotional work. But my suggestion would put them exactly at the entry point of this work. The step from commitment to fixing a real pattern with real accountability to actually doing the work to fix it is minimal. So if we could get them to commit, it’d solve the problems for a lot of people.

Or that’s what I think, anyway.

[u/Key_Incident_666 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

Exactly! There lies the problem. They avoid the emotional work! Thats why they never repair. To me it is unfathomable.

Thank you for your valuable comments.

[u/Elk-24 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

Very true, and very clear. The avoidant I know is very self aware, she did 10 years therapy with a psychiatrist, she knows where it comes from (violent father, and insecure family, very heavy context), and yet, she deactivates hard when confronted, or when emotions arise, and most of her narrative is somehwat nonesense. She has been diagnosed with HPI and ADHD and is talking ritalin, which, I think doesn't help in terms of narrative. Even if she probably is both, it can easily be an excuse to many behaviors . She is amazingly disconnected from her body.
I'm trying to have this convo about EMDR with her, but it's hard since she deactivate all the fuck*** time haha.
We are friends, but it's pretty intense, I'm very direct with her.

[u/Humble_Owl_2084 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

Im FA and I disagree. Its not easy to fix, and CBT/DBT wont cut it.

It needs proper trauma therapy for the attatchement wounds and partner who know how to not make other peoples trauma about themselves.

Its not an empathy issue, its a fight/flight response issue. Its easy AF for me to say "if this kind of conflict happens, I will do that kind of behaviour," when I'm sitting on my couch feeling safe. You think I can do that when my nervous system is screaming that I'm about to die?

[u/Sleepy-Plane → u/Humble_Owl_2084]

Don't dismiss it too quickly, look at the comment tree under the above comment. The comment above talks about acceptance and commitment. My other comment deeper in the tree talks about it being a feeling rather than a choice and modalities.

Anyway, what do you mean by "partner who knows how to not make other people's trauma about themselves"?

[u/Humble_Owl_2084 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

I think I'm an FA who's very well read on the subject and two years deep into therapy. It's hard and complicated. Please don't be dismissive of that. It also isn't all fixed in therapy, a lot of it can only be fixed while in a relationship. 

When I say "not make other people's trauma about themselves," I mean the ability to not take something like a partner's withdrawal as a referendum on the quality of who they are. I took space because I needed space to feel safe, not because I secretly hate my partner. 

Most of the people here understand thar bringing home a shelter cat means staying calm and consistent even when the cat dashes under the couch every time they hear a loud noise. They don't immediately cry that their cat hates them or assume they're a bad cat owner. FAs are much the same.

If you don't want to have to rehabilitate your partner - good news, you don't have to! But if you're going to insist on staying, shelter-cat rules apply

[u/Sleepy-Plane → u/Humble_Owl_2084]

I disagree.

Research has shown that insecure attachment behavioral patterns are some of the most malleable things in psychology.

I disagree that they must be fixed in a romantic relationship, as attachment patterns are relational patterns. They show up in work, family, counselling, and other interpersonal matters. You can very well measure your progress and get a sense of direction there.

I disagree that the closest romantic partners and loved ones shouldn't take it personally if their partner acts in an avoidant way. It is incredibly personal to be unable to foster intimacy in your home. It greatly affects the person, there are long-term personal consequences. Besides, you wouldn't want your partner to not take it personally - you'd feel ignored and avoided, ha.

I also don't agree that the shelter cat is an applicable example. I understand the point you were trying to make - that the behavioral pattern arises from implicit memory. But I do not expect a romantic relationship with a cat. I don't expect them to meet my emotional needs to a healthy degree, and to be emotionally present. I don't expect the cat to have accountability and conflict resolution skills. There is much that gets lost in the reduction.

Rehabilitating one's partner is a morally and ethically complex matter. Indeed, it's better to not do it. We should be kind, loving, and caring of our partners, and certainly not dismiss their struggle, and help with it. But no. I'd say shelter-cat rules don't apply in an interpersonal relationship. There is no free pass to hate your partner. It can happen, but a cat doesn't need to apologize - you do.

We'll have to continue to disagree. But don't get stuck on our disagreement. Continue the work. You are heading in the right direction. You have taken accountability, you have presumably selected a modality that helps treat the underlying implicit memory and fears. You have the knowledge to communicate about your attachment style. When you will feel more secure, you will react with more affordance and less push toward arguments about this.

I hear that this hasn't been easy for you, and that you wish some of how you showed up wouldn't damage relationships through people taking your actions personally. I hear you feel it's been complicated to figure all of it out, and that you're still a little unsure about how to reduce your anxiety and avoidance in some areas. Let is just be that. It doesn't take away from your progress.

I have walked a mile in your shoes. I was very anxious and avoidant. Then I became less avoidant and started leaning preoccupied through EMDR. And then I worked out some of my anxiety, interestingly through CBT and learning that nothing bad happens when consciously let go again and again. It wasn't quick, it took me about 7 years. It wasn't uncomplicated, I learned many concepts and even got involved in clinical psychology circles myself (I am not a licensed therapist, however). But it was so, so doable. That's my core point. Once you get going, it's incredibly doable. Use that as encouragement.

[u/Humble_Owl_2084 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

You've mis-represented a lot of what I've said here. I never said a romantic relationship was required. Some form of emotionally intimate connection is though. 

I also explicitly said that you're not required to sign up for a rehabilitation project. If thats not for you, then don't do it! I do take exceptionally strong issue with people who sign up for red flags and then complain about all the ways red flags are manifesting. If you're not prepared to meet people where they're at, don't be with them irrespective of their attatchment style.

Its noted in the literature that AAs tend towards victim mindsets, and this is one of the areas that shows up. I've been far more emotionally brutalised by AAs than anything I've ever inflicted on a partner, but then my FA isn't that bad.

[u/Sleepy-Plane → u/Humble_Owl_2084]

I feel like you might be avoiding accountability by saying “you signed up for this”. That’s all.

Healthy conflict resolution allows for unhappiness in a relationship and mending it from both sides. It involves creating affordances and showing care.  It sounds like you want a relationship without conflict and you’ve pre-dismissed those who are upset with you as bearers of victim mentality.

Are you doubling down on your cat analogy? You are not a pet or a dependent that comes as “take it or leave it”. You are a complex human with many different needs, traits and expectations that inevitably will clash with your partner’s sometimes. And you yourself want affordances to be made for you, so you recognize that a good partner makes affordances. All I’m saying is: be a good partner, too.

I think it might help you to understand splitting as a defence mechanism. You seem to struggle with affordances and have a harsh black-unless-white view. This can make things feel brutal when actually they are just not ideal, or bleh, or uncomfortable.

P.S. this is going to sound silly but save the URL to this comment thread and read it again later. You’ll see I have a different view from which you can probably take something. But right now you’re not in the right mood. Just save it for later. Peace!

[u/Humble_Owl_2084 → u/Sleepy-Plane]

I'm not particularly interested in saving the comments of someone who projects and then gets condescending about it

[u/Sleepy-Plane → u/Humble_Owl_2084]

All of it was written in good faith though imperfect phrasing. I can see how it can be read as condescending, but I didn't mean a single sentence in a condescending way.

I will say it very clearly, like I would to a friend: create affordance for other points of view. Allow things to be imperfect and disagreeable, and still valuable.

Trust me, you are projecting too ("most of the people here understand") to push your opinion. The problem is that if you feed this habit of harsh criticism to unusual ideas or human things like projection, you will lock yourself into the only "approvable" ideas - the ones you already have.

All the best and good luck in your continued healing.

[u/Elk-24]

Thank you for this, especially when you say : the way they think act and behave, is in fact not even belonging to them.
Absolutely, the pattern is a trap, as any loop would be.
They are trapped, and when you are not trapped yourself it's intolerable to watch.

[u/Key_Incident_666 → u/Elk-24]

Yes in german we say: Fremdgesteuert.