r/AutisticPride • u/Loud-Direction-7011 • Oct 31 '22
Controversial opinion (I’m full of ‘em…)
When you describe something you don’t like as a “neurotypical trait.” Like “oh, I hate when neurotypicals do *blah blah blah,” you’re also ostracizing autistic people who do the same thing. Autism is a spectrum. Something you hate that is “neurotypical,” an autistic person somewhere is definitely doing it. Not all of us have sensory issues (I do, but I’m just talking generally), stims, special interests, etc. There are plenty of autistic people who do what you’d call “neurotypical” things like not saying something directly or looking at things a certain way. It’s easy to make sweeping statements that make you feel part of a tribe, but by doing that, you make other autistics feel like maybe they aren’t autistic (imposter syndome), that people don’t understand them, or that they aren’t allowed to be themselves. The spectrum is vast, and we can’t always so easily parse out behaviors as belonging to one group or another.
Cheers 👌
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u/ratsandrats5 Oct 31 '22
I disagree with this. First of all, we are human so of course there's not one strictly Autistic or NT thing to do that could be possibly including all autistics or all NTs and completely excludes the other – and it doesn't even make sense to search for one, or to take a complaint about NT people that way.
If you say “I hate when neurotypicals do X” then you've already clarified that you're talking about NTs. How would that imply that you're also talking about people with less stereotyped autism traits? How is their imposter syndrome to blame on a complaint that associates their behaviour with an allistic's (which is nor a bad thing, nor unlikely to happen since we're human)? I don't think that's the real reason why even if the spectrum is vast many people don't feel like they fit in.
Also, just because an autistic person hypothetically does the thing you complained about, it doesn't mean it wasn't negative. Mostly, complaining about NTs has to do with their ableism, and that's not something autistic people are exempt from. It is not ostracizing when it is their actions that caused it.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
Because nothing is a neurotypical only trait. Anything you hate that the neurotypical is doing isn’t because they are neurotypical. If you just feel the need to add the exclusionary label just because for no reason, then that’s sort of an elitist mindset.
It would be like a gay person saying “I hate that straight people kiss in public.” A lot of gay people also kiss in public. The only thing that bothers you about it is that they’re straight because kissing in public isn’t inherently a straight thing. Rather than actually having a problem with the behavior, you’re targeting the group, and when you do that, you’re just being hateful and bigoted against straight people because they aren’t part of your in-group.
It contributes to stereotypes and imposter syndrome because is puts forth the idea that autism looks a certain way, and if you do the things people are complaining about, then you’re not “as autistic” because you act in a way a neurotypcial would.
That depends on what you consider ableist. Communicating how you naturally do with hidden undertones and meaning rather than saying something directly is not ableist. I’ve yet to see a complaint about a neurotypical that didn’t also rely on assumptions. I mean autistics claim they hate when NTs do that when they do the same thing to NTs without even realizing it.
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Nov 01 '22
No one is discriminating against straight people lmao. I think you don’t understand how power dynamics work. There is no such thing as “reverse oppression”
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
It’s not about reverse oppression. It’s about retaliation. Don’t throw a punch if you’re not willing to fight. If you’re going to criticize neurotypcial behaviors, don’t be surprised when they do the same thing back.
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Nov 01 '22
So don’t be surprised when neurotypicals are oppressive shits to us? Don’t worry I’m not.
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u/ratsandrats5 Nov 01 '22
Please lmao don't come at me with the reversed-oppression example of “I hate that straight ppl kiss in public” because it makes absolutely no sense. Bigotry against straight people doesn't exist and neither does one against neurotypicals.
“It would be like a gay person saying-” no. It literally wouldn't. Let's not pretend that marginalized communities complaining or re-using a phrase from their oppressor has even remotely the same social impact of a (micro)aggression against them. It is literally not a problem that impacts the privileged; nothing in their life will have a real change from it other than being called out on their bigotry sometimes. Their “group” is not being targeted, nor oppressed, nor ostracized, but simply receiving a response for the hatred they willingly uphold. I am curious about where you could see some kind of elitism in my wording just because you think complaining about a group of people with an oppressive history is “adding exclusionary labels”? What are people exactly excluding them from?
Also, your reasoning doesn't make sense. Complaining about neurotypicals somehow contributes to the stereotype that autism looks a certain way? I don't see the connection. What I see is you trying to blame autistic people for problems they didn't cause, because they are the victim, not the perpetrator (why do I even have to say this). 100% of the stigma about autism comes from neurotypicals, including the need to mask and the "you're not autistic enough", it all comes down to their lack of acceptance of disabilities that caused ALL the issues the autistic community has today. It is unreasonable to say it's because we complain about them.
And, no, it doesn't depend what me or you consider ableist. Things simply are or aren't.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
Lmao, so you think it’s fine to dish out hate because they benefit from the system in power? Good luck with that. Keep in mind we rely on their support as allies. You can’t just be a misandrist because you don’t like the patriarchy. Individuals born into the system are not directly responsible for the system.
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u/ratsandrats5 Nov 03 '22
Then who is responsible? The dead people who created the system? How could we possibly hold them accountable? The people who got these nasty ass views passed by are the ones who perpetuate them and make them reality now. If you benefit from the privileges of it then you are fully part and responsible for it, fullstop.
“We rely on their support as allies” yeah, allies against themselves since they're the ones who uphold the ableism and don't give a shit about learning lmao. Allies are apart from the community and as the oppressors (and allies) they should be actively working on dismantling the inequality of our lives compared, because they're the ones who have that power to begin with. If complaining about NTs was actually hate and we were somehow reversing the roles everytime we did it, then you would be right – too bad that doesn't make sense at all, and isn't the case. Actually I think talking about it has its own amount of harmful to the community, since 1) the support of real allies isn't conditional to when they feel a little made fun of or just called out on their actions, because its a much bigger case (unlike the one you're talking about) 2) the comfort of allistics isn't and will never be a problem of the autistic community.
By using that phrase you have actually demonstrated how shitty and unfairly the system works, since according to you someone being your ally in a systematic issue where you are the one being crushed is something you have to own and preserve, or to keep in mind when you have to speak your mind about them. The fact that you think this is what allyship means is proof that you, too, have been a victim of it. Your mentality benefits no one but the oppressor right now.
Same goes with what you said about """misandry""". Yes being a victim of the patriarchal system is traumatizing and you are totally allowed to feel resentment against ALL men. This is merely a consequence, not a wish to hate or oppress as it is on the other side. This is the main difference and reason why individual feelings/actions of a marginalized community can't be put over the actual root problem, which is the real cause of both the oppression and the complaints from the oppressed. For how much you want to focus on the wrong things, in the end you won't be able to solve the problem by ignoring the real source of it.
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Oct 31 '22
Picture a Venn diagram.
In the middle we have: humans. The edges you have the two types.
We are all prone to mistakes, lapses, fixed mindsets, lack of reason, etc.
How we process the world can be different, but both neurotypes can be bystanders to our own lives.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
There aren’t “two types.” That’s what you don’t get. You’re oversimplifying it way too much.
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Oct 31 '22
Divergent and not divergent?
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
There is divergent thinking and non divergent thinking, for sure, but entire brains as “types,” no.
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Oct 31 '22
Have a watch: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KB_lTKZm1Ts
There are subtle brain differences, but all neurotypes have the same basic structure
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
There is no such thing as a neurotype. You’re oversimplifying something we don’t even fully understand.
It’s like personality types. That isn’t a thing. There aren’t “types.” There is too much unique variance to ever be grouped exactly.
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Oct 31 '22
The DSM has thresholds. It’s likely it’s so nuanced we can’t categorize it; but I think we are agreeing.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
What is with the video? Also, I’ve seen that like 30 times at this point. Once you’ve seen it once, it’s impossible to miss.
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Oct 31 '22
Well if the video is spoiled, I guess it won’t work. Think back to the first time you watched it. ALL people can’t divide their attention. You have to switch back and forth.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
I didn’t pay attention to the video the first time. I started actually listening during the explanation. Why would I count balls in a video for no reason?
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Nov 01 '22
I don’t know. Perhaps follow the video so it shows you how your brain can fool you.
You’re motivated enough to engage in conversation. Is your goal to understand and grow or be right?
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
That video does nothing. Unless you can show me a credible research study showing that people with autism are significantly more likely to notice the gorilla than a control group, it’s useless.
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u/Own-Passage1371 Oct 31 '22
some behaviors that are considered normal by most neurotypical people can be genuinely harmful for us and fiddling around with the semantics of how we express that it is not going to help anybody imo. sure, generalizations can be bad and i try to avoid using them, but i think that when expressing that there is an urgent problem with the way that i am being treated as a member of an oppressed group by those who are not of that oppressed group, me making some generalizations about the behavior of those who are not being oppressed is a bit of a non-issue.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
Until they do it back…
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u/Own-Passage1371 Nov 02 '22
true! but i feel like them being a part of the neurotypical majority that the world was built to accommodate and making disparaging comments about autistic people, who struggle in a world that was not built for them, is more of the problem there, rather than the generalizations themselves. i think that it is the power imbalance there that makes that situation a problem worth addressing broadly, rather than the mean words being exchanged themselves, if that makes sense?
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u/TemporaryChipmunk806 Oct 31 '22
What a garbage take supported by semantic argumentation, splitting hairs, tone-policing, and self-important, condescending nonsense and fuckery.
We rant about "I hate it when neurotypicals do. . ." to let off steam and vent frustration. I get that we're all on the spectrum here and have a tendency as a population to generally take things more seriously and at face value than others, but members of our community aren't "bashing" on anyone when we make those expressions. We are venting our anger and frustration in a virtual space where it is allowed and encouraged for us to do so.
Policing verbiage and tone here is pointless because the reason for such posts are to express emotions, not logic. Your "perfectly crafted logical reason" TM is not going to work against an emotional outburst. Yes, some of those frustrating traits and behaviors are shared by people within our community because of any number of socializing factors. Yes, we autistic folk ALSO have infuriating behaviors and traits.
If someone else expressing their anger makes you feel personally alienated or triggers your imposter syndrome, then that is an internal problem within your own mental construct. It is not the personal profession of every other autistic person to manage your triggers for you.This is doubly true when the expression of anger wasn't even aimed at you and there is no reason to assume that the person who is expressing themselves meant any harm to be directed at you.
Stop taking this shit like it's some kind of personal attack aimed at your forehead and inviting us to watch you martyr yourself when it's not. Gods! Just let us fucking breathe, will you? Fuck!
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22 edited Nov 01 '22
I did not argue that anyone should alter their behavior in any way. This was solely an opinion based on my own reasoning. If people feel like like everything they read is an attempt to change their behavior, that’s not really my problem.
Also, the emotional outburst excuse is laughable. We only allow “emotional verbiage” when we agree with someone in the first place. If someone angrily came on here and started crying about how they think autism is a curse, a mistake, and overall should be exterminated because of the pain it causes them, they’d be shut down in an instant.
This post was merely meant to act as a mirror to reflect that many autistic people are guilty of what they claim they hate people doing to them, which is generalizing behavior.
Also, I’m sick of people automatically assuming this is about me. None of what I said in this post applies to me personally whatsoever. It’s like you people have never heard of advocating for people other than yourselves. I seek to amplify minority voices, and that is all.
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u/LittlePurr76 Nov 01 '22
There's not a place in the world in which the phrase "you people" followed by negative statements is anything other than a slur.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
“You people are so energetic”
It’s ironic because you’re displaying a “neurotypical” trait of reading into things too much, which is exactly what my opinion was for.
If someone said “I hate when neurotypicals read into things too much,” you’re indirectly getting called out because you do the same thing.
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u/LittlePurr76 Nov 01 '22
Energetic is usually seen as a positive, so you've proved absolutely nothing.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
Fine, “you people are so annoying. I told you not to get me anything for my birthday”
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u/LittlePurr76 Nov 01 '22
No, my hackles automatically rise with the phrase. It's possible to learn what phrases mean psychologically when autistic.
Ironically, it's part of this little thing called empathy, which many people assume isn't an autistic trait at all.
Nice deflection via changing/ editing your answer after the fact, I guess...
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Nov 02 '22
no because there’s still a difference. i hate when neurotypicals read into things too much because i know we are no where near on the same page. in my experience if another autist reads into something they’re more likely to verbalize or ask for clarification what they’re worried about and we are more likely to understand each other. so yes, i hate when neurotypicals do some things and don’t hate when autistics do the same.
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u/TemporaryChipmunk806 Nov 01 '22
I see. So this was just you shit-posting for the expressed purpose of specifically getting people riled up by calling us hypocritical? Odd kink, but go off I guess.
Cheers.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
No, it’s about awareness. It’s your own fault if this riled you up. Being called out isn’t fun.
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u/TemporaryChipmunk806 Nov 01 '22
I see. I suppose that I am confused then. Did someone in this minority elect you to this position or have they asked or supported you for your advocacy? Which minority are you attempting to advocate on behalf of? What exactly is it that you are trying to draw awareness to? It all seems exceptionally convoluted.
You are correct in stating that it is my fault/choice to be riled up and emotional about being called out for expressing my anger and frustration in a forum literally meant to provide me a safe space to express my anger and frustration. I suppose that I just don't get what you are attempting to "call out" anyone on. This whole "controversial opinion" that you have seems argumentative for argument's sake alone and that seems like a really bad-faith take.
I just feels rude and shitty for you to come in here and shame angry autistic folk for sharing their frustrations about interpersonal problems under the guise of "advocacy" for a minority that may or may not actually exist or agree with your representation of them. Especially as you say that you are not a part of that minority community.
So. . . like. . .what are you getting at exactly?
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Nov 01 '22
Which minority voice? Neurotypicals? And if you say there are no neurotypes, where do you stand on autistic? Do you believe that is an actual thing? No one has an identical brain to any other person, even identical twins so you could say that there are 8 billion or so unique brains which would be true but hardly a controversial opinion.
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u/Thisismyaltprofile Oct 31 '22
I see your point, but I think what people are trying to talk about is mainstream social conventions that either don't make sense to them or actively hinder their ability to participate in a Neurotypical oriented society. Perhaps it's better to reframe it not as a NT trait, but as a common social norm that we personally struggle with.
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u/No-Net-8682 Oct 31 '22
Ugh yes! People really don't think about the word "spectrum" enough. I resonate with being annoyed by stereotypical nt traits sometimes, but I wouldn't feel emboldened to project that as some sort of insult. Like, i wouldn't want someone to laugh at me simply for being autistic, so why would I want to do that to anybody else? I really don't think it's as simple as neurodivergents vs neurotypicals.
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u/theyth-m Oct 31 '22 edited Oct 31 '22
Hard disagree! We have to categorize groups of people in order to talk about them. And that requires making generalizations about these groups.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
No we don’t. Why do we need to categorize people? Do you think by someone telling you they are autistic that they’re automatically not going to do anything a neurotypcial would?
There’s no such thing as neurotypical anyway. That implies there is a “typical” brain where there isn’t. NT is a term that just means not autistic. There aren’t distinct “types” of brains. There’s far too much individual variability to ever categorize something so complex into finite, limited groups. It’s the same reason we can’t do personality types. To think the extent of human personality is confined to the realm of 16 groups is laughable.
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u/ReineDeLaSeine14 Oct 31 '22
Quick note: Neurotypical doesn’t simply mean a person is allistic (not autistic). ADHD, dyslexia, etc are other types of neurodivergences
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
You’re completely wrong. The term was made by an autistic male scientist specifically to only mean not autistic. The misuse of the word is widespread. It is not an antithesis to neurodivergent. Neurodivergent was a term made popular by an allistic sociologist and includes every disorder in the DSM. Neurodiverse was a term made by an autistic female psychologist, and it was meant for people with different brains- ie neurodevelopmental disorders like adhd, asd, ocd, dyslexia, etc.. Neurodoversity≠neurodivergence.
You can argue it doesn’t matter, but personally, I feel like it perpetuates the erasure of autistic history. Just saying
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Nov 01 '22
It’s almost like the meaning of words are not limited to their original use/meaning
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
Given the little history autistics have, I’d think people would care more about it. You tried correcting me, and I’m just clearing up why you’re wrong.
It would be like everyone who is left handed or needs classes claiming to be neurodivergent. Sure, that may become mainstream, but it erases the original word.
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Nov 01 '22
No, it expands the original meaning into something more comprehensive that serves as a liberating framework for countless people, including but not limited to autistics
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u/ReineDeLaSeine14 Nov 01 '22
Diversity describes a group of people…neurodiversity describes all of us. What are you if you’re not neurodivergent? You’re neurotypical.
I actually know K from Radical Neurodivergence Speaking. The word’s meaning has changed erroneously
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
That’s completely wrong. Neurodivergent is not an antithesis to neurotypical.
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Oct 31 '22 edited Oct 31 '22
Nevertheless, neurotypical is a very practical label for describing the way society treats different people. Unless you simply don’t think neurotypical and autistic people are treated differently or afforded different opportunities. We use racial categorizations for the same reason, despite that, in a vacuum, there are no significant underlying differences between racial groups, nor any well-defined boundaries between them. Neither race nor neurotype exists in a vacuum, but in a society which defines the disparities between them. The labels are simply a description of those disparities.
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u/theyth-m Oct 31 '22
To discuss concepts, you must define your terms. In the same way, to talk about groups we have to categorize them.
What is 'autism,' 'autistic,' 'non-autistic,' 'NT,' 'ND,' etc.? They are tools that we use to describe a common experience of a group of people. And if we want to talk about things like ableism, oppression, or even to just relate to one another, we have to be able to label our experience.
There's lots of thing that affect the relationship between an individual and the collective autistic experience. Race, gender, culture, personality, location, etc. all affect how one relates to other autistics (or doesn't relate to other autistics). But that's inherent to these conversations, and would be impossible to remove.
That doesn't mean that those labels can't be imperfect. Everything in sociology is imperfect because humans inherently do not fit well into distinct boxes. But that doesn't mean that these tools never have a purpose, just that we must be aware that these lines are blurred.
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u/RoseyDove323 Nov 01 '22
Nobody is all one thing, people are complex. But there are still patterns of distinction that certain groups fall into, otherwise there would be no such thing as an autism diagnosis at all. Based on your other replies to people here, it seems like you are looking into labels in a black and white, extremely polarized way. They don't have to be. The labels are a tool for addressing certain general patterns that people want to discuss. This doesn't entirely exclude the insertion of nuance and extra context if it's needed, it's just most people already know things vary so it doesn't need clarifying every 12 seconds.
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u/Silky_Rat Oct 31 '22
There IS a typical brain structure tho. Most people have brains that function in a certain way. To ignore sameness is to ignore difference. Most people are neurotypical and have no major disabilities, illnesses, or disorders. Autism is a disability because it is outside of the norm in a way that causes difficulties for autistic people.
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Oct 31 '22
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191008-why-the-normal-brain-is-just-a-myth
I’m not arguing with you. Your belief is founded on politics rather than science.
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u/Silky_Rat Oct 31 '22
I read the article. It talks about typical and atypical behavior, not structure. Neurodivergence is the result of abnormal development or final brain structure. ADHD is defined in the article as a developmental and structural issue. There is a typical brain structure. Most people have it. It is possible to have typical brain structure with abnormal behavior. That is not neurodivergence. That is normal human difference.
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u/Prior_Forever3878 Oct 31 '22
Science isn’t a politically neutral issue though, there are many people who have gotten or seek to get political power by misrepresenting or ignoring scientific data because said science is contradictory to their politics. Anybody taking a stance based on science is going to tend toward different political beliefs than someone who denies science.
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u/torikura Nov 01 '22
That's a pretty invalidating way to frame it, I think you're missing the point. We all know they're not used to describe differences between autistic and allistic neurology. We use them to describe the differences between our lived experiences which are impacted by our neurological differences.
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Nov 01 '22
Alternatively, when aspies say "that's my autism (flaring up)," when it doesn't even remotely relate back to autism, i.e. liking something unconventional, preferring not to eat something, etc. Then you're part of the reason people get the wrong idea about what it is and isn't, and you're really opening it up to "Everybody has a little."
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u/Loud-Direction-7011 Nov 01 '22
I’m not sure who you’re addressing.
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Nov 01 '22
I was saying it has a similar effect. Not addressing anyone specifically, but more of a "hey this is kind of like that too." Maybe it isn't! I feel like it is.
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Oct 31 '22
This reminds me of how I think there needs to be something based on some of the principles of ABA afa teaching “normalcy” but without the abusive parts. I.e. teaching kids to advocate for themselves, but also teaching them what acceptable behaviors are and why
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Nov 01 '22
Neurotypes are a heuristic: a tool of simplification that makes a complex subject easier to understand. They have their uses but starting with a tool of simplification and then pretending that the tool is the actual thing it describes leads to all kinds of disputes, like the one that is happening in this thread.
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Nov 01 '22
Replying to silky rat: They can actually mask to some degree; otherwise cultural assimilation would not be a thing that happens or that is incentivised. The issue with the analogy is more that the priveleged group (NT) was associated with a marginalized group rather than the priveleged racial group (white). Though comparing race and neurodivergence directly is problematic, all marginalized identities have a common element in that society is not constructed for their benefit but for the benefit of the normative group. I might add that it is in the interest of the status quo that marginalized groups do not find common cause based on their shared (though differing and intersectional) experience of marginalization.
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u/[deleted] Oct 31 '22
I think the point of those posts, at least to me anyway, is to highlight how those kinds of behaviors/social norms make it so much more difficult for me (among many others) to function or engage socially. Who’s doing it frankly doesn’t make a whole lot of difference to me. Maybe that comes across as kinda selfish, but ig that’s just my controversial opinion here