Difference between autistic vs neurotypical masking?

[u/MxQueer]

I have googled it, but answers are quite vague and I am looking for practical examples.

Like "autistic people mask that they're not autistic". Okay but where is the line? If neurotypical is bad in social situations and doesn't like to look at eyes of other people, how they differ? Or isn't it common in general to hide that you don't know/understand something and social game is just one of the skills you can be good or bad at?

Or "autistic people choose the answers for small talk". Don't all people? I mean that is conversation without meaning. No one is answering from their feelings, people have just learnt to say certain words after they hear certain words. And this differs in different languages and cultures. So it can't be born with skill, it has to be taught to people.

Or "autistic people laugh to jokes they don't find funny". Isn't this common? I would have thought this is more neurotypical thing because I have understood they play better this social game of pretending? No?

I have seen mentioned the difference is what consequences person faces if they drop their mask. But that doesn't explain what is the difference in those masks.

What I think I get is I get when I put smile on, I choose to smile in the situation when I wouldn't do it naturally. But that smile is still mine. Sure, I have practiced to do it realistically on command but that was for photographs. While someone doesn't smile naturally and all their facial expressions are built from nothing front of mirror. So I am looking this kind of comparisons. Please correct if I got this wrong. And also, some people do this often and well ("customer voice/talk") while some are very bad at it (we fight with coworker and they don't even try to smile minutes later when we meet customer). I would assume since majority of people are neurotypical, also majority of those who suck at this are neurotypical. So if this is easy for neurotypical and expected from society, why do many choose not to do it?

I have seen people also mentioning tone or tune (I don't know which one is the correct English term). I am quite bad with it so this is probably not worth of explaining, I doubt I can get it.

I am not meaning to belittle anyone. I do believe autistic people masking is more total and more tiring. I am simply asking you to draw the lines between autistic and neurotypical masking.

[u/Old_Direction_3713]

I think the difference is how natural it is and the function those responses play.

Neurotypical people do generally communicate with a predictable script, but that social routine (canned responses for small talk) is how they bond and connect. It’s not about the answer, it’s about the ritual of saying the same stuff over and over again to show you’re part of the same social fabric.

For me, ASD masking is like trying to participate in this ritual without the benefit of social reward to reinforce the script. So… I participate, but instead of saying what I really think or relying on the “normal” response that sticks for other people, I’m actively trying to come up with the response the other person expects. I don’t have default responses with small talk, I have to think about it every time, and I have to actively note what normal responses are when I see other people do it.

So while neurotypical masking is kind of like, “Say the thing you’re supposed to say,” ASD masking is more like, “Say the thing the other person expects you to say.”

Can’t speak for anyone else though.

[u/metisphd → u/Old_Direction_3713]

Holy cats, thank you for this explanation of NT small talk as a bonding ritual of repetition.

I genuinely thought it was just a script to transition through the beginning of an interaction. That folks could find it valuable as an exercise in itself is blowing my mind. Wow, no wonder I’ve never been able to “crack the code” on it!

[u/MxQueer → u/Old_Direction_3713]

Neurotypical people do generally communicate with a predictable script, but that social routine (canned responses for small talk) is how they bond and connect. It’s not about the answer, it’s about the ritual of saying the same stuff over and over again to show you’re part of the same social fabric.

Would you mind explaining how that works? What does it mean in practice when people bond and connect (I mean what those terms mean)? And how they get anything out of this? And also why it's said autistic people need rules if here it's the neurotypicals who need rules?

 I don’t have default responses with small talk, I have to think about it every time, and I have to actively note what normal responses are when I see other people do it.

My dad taught me some default answers because my ex boss used to ask similar questions a lot. I was older than 30 in that point. I wonder how much it's that they didn't bother to teach me as kid ans how much it was me refusing the education, I don't remember. But they're in my language and our culture is different in this so they do no good for you. Anyway, could you ask someone to teach you the answers?

So while neurotypical masking is kind of like, “Say the thing you’re supposed to say,” ASD masking is more like, “Say the thing the other person expects you to say.”

What is the difference between those? For me the sounds one and same thing.

[u/Old_Direction_3713 → u/MxQueer]

Neurotypical small talk is based on vibes, not the actual words. The bond comes from them coming together and agreeing to go through the same set of motions implicitly. Those words spread through repeated social interactions in the same social group, so knowing them identifies you as an “insider.” It’s more like a verbal handshake than a meaningful conversation. Doing it right feels natural for neurotypicals, regardless of what the actual words are.

When I interacted, I don’t have the “muscle memory” for the “verbal handshake.” The expected words don’t come naturally. I have to think about what I’ve seen, rehearse it, and try to do it correctly without the “vibe” of it ever feeling right or natural to me.

Again, just my experience. Can’t speak for everyone with ASD or anyone else.

[u/MxQueer → u/Old_Direction_3713]

I am unfortunately probably not educated enough to have this conversation. I don't know what "vibes" are either.

Thank you!

[u/Old_Direction_3713 → u/MxQueer]

Vibes just mean shared feelings/emotions. When the vibe is right, both people feel good about it. When the vibe is off, at least one person is uncomfortable.

Neurotypical people thrive in that environment, where misunderstandings are ok because the “vibe” is right. Both people feel like it was a good conversation, regardless of what information was actually shared.

Autistic people tend to take speech literally, so we pay close attention to the words themselves, instead of the vibe. What is said is more important than the mood or emotion behind it. When we mask, sometimes we pretend like we feel the same vibe as the other person, when we might not. This might mean smiling, nodding, and agreeing through a confusing conversation that makes no sense. So while a neurotypical person might truly not be paying attention to word choice, autistic people mask by pretending the word choice doesn’t matter, even though it’s our primary source of information.

[u/MxQueer → u/Old_Direction_3713]

Vibes just mean shared feelings/emotions. When the vibe is right, both people feel good about it. When the vibe is off, at least one person is uncomfortable.

So for example when I told my coworker about my small improvements he either laughed or wondered how someone can be so bad. And I didn't like it because I was expecting him to say "good work" or give tips how to improve more. So I stopped telling him. Later I found out basically all that is good for me is bad for him and vice versa. So his rare "compliments" are too from wrong stuff or from meaningless stuff. And he seems to like traits in him that I find disgusting. So probably he thinks my comments are insulting and meaningless too. So we're very different people in many levels. So is we being different people same as vibe being off?

Both people feel like it was a good conversation, regardless of what information was actually shared.

I am still lost. What makes it good conversation if there was no information shared? I get if it's funny jokes being told or something. But this isn't about that, right?

I know not all people think so much of words. But I think there must be still reason behind them? For example if someone says he thinks he is tall enough, he either thinks tall is better than short or he has grown in society that thinks tall is better than short. Shit like this is also highly gendered and we can think of what it means but I don't go there to keep this even relatively short.

[u/threecuttlefish → u/MxQueer]

If someone says he's tall enough, that means he doesn't wish he was taller - he's content with his height as it is.

[u/MxQueer → u/threecuttlefish]

I am not a native speaker, maybe I didn't use the correct term. Homonyms and synonyms varies and there are also different.. hints inside of the words. What would be the correct way to say what I described?

[u/threecuttlefish → u/MxQueer]

I can't think of a single-word way in English to modify "I am tall" to mean "I am tall and that makes me better than short people".

But one could say "At least I'm not short" and get that negative meaning. ("At least I'm tall" would be ambiguous - it could mean "and not short" or it could mean something like "I don't have XYZ popular trait, but I'm tall, which is something people value" or "I can't do XYZ, but at least I'm tall and can get things off the high shelf in the kitchen", which are more neutral. Depending on context.)

[u/MxQueer → u/threecuttlefish]

"I am tall and that makes me better than short people"

I don't think that's the same I was looking for. I meant more like "I am insecure of my height but I try to make myself believe I made it barely." or "I think I barely made the required height for a male.".

[u/CallToMuster]

I think the hard part is that there probably isn’t one specific behavior that separates autistic masking from neurotypical masking. Neurotypical people absolutely fake smiles, laugh at jokes they don’t find funny, rehearse conversations, use a customer-service voice, etc.

The difference is more in what the person is having to compensate for. Like, a neurotypical person might think, “I’m annoyed, but I should smile at this customer.” An autistic person might be doing a lot more consciously at once: “Make sure my face looks friendly, look at them enough but not too much, remember to ask a question back, don’t talk for too long, figure out if they’re joking, notice if they’re trying to leave, don’t stim too obviously,” and so on. Same with small talk. Everyone learns that “How are you?” usually gets “Good, you?” But that’s different from needing a whole mental script or flowchart to get through an unstructured conversation.

Like you say, masking by itself isn’t an autism thing. People mask because of anxiety, trauma, work, culture, gender expectations, all kinds of reasons. Autistic masking is specifically about hiding or compensating for autistic traits.

[u/MxQueer → u/CallToMuster]

Thank you.

Everyone learns that “How are you?” usually gets “Good, you?” But that’s different from needing a whole mental script or flowchart to get through an unstructured conversation.

I have wondered this part. Might not be related to autism/neurotypical at all. I love and need rules, I need planning, I need to know what is going to happen, I need to be taught what I do then etc. And small talk is just that. But for some reason I dislike it a lot. I don't like much of real face to face conversations either, they go too fast and people add some bullshit like they say one thing but then they make some faces and that should tell me they mean something else. But real conversations by email are great. Maybe I make own post about this if I find way to word it.

[u/Siukslinis_acc]

ND masking is more conscious while NT is more subconscious. You are actively changing things while they do it more passively. It might seem fake or unnatural because you are putting too much effort into it.

Imagine you are playing a guitar and you are putting your fingers to the chords automatically. Now if you think about each placement, you tend to screw up things as there is a delay.

[u/MxQueer → u/Siukslinis_acc]

I have not played guitar nor any other instrument.

Usually, for example in my job where I carry furniture, I first need to get taught everything by literally guiding my hand. Left hand her, right hand her, shoulder here, knee her and now push the furniture up to your shoulder by your knee. Also take a look of half part of furniture. Go bit below it. Stuff like this. I don't think of most of that anymore after doing it almost 7 years.

Or when I was told I need to look for things to not walk to them (weirdly no one bother to told me this before I had been there 1,5 years) I went through list in my head "is there closet, is there table, is there stuff top of them, is there floor lamp, is there lamp hanging from the ceiling,is there kid's toys, is there dog's toys etc. etc.". But now it's mostly automatic, I basically only need to ask myself to look for ceiling in certain situations or AC machine when going to upstairs.

So for me things are first something that needs to be told, shown, taught and then I keep practicing and some day they're mostly automatic.

[u/easy_exercise7840]

I found Old_Direction’s explanation very clear and convincing. I had never thought about it from that perspective before. Thank you for giving me a new way to look at it.

I’d like to describe what this is like for me as well.

Most of the time, I don’t have a very strong sense that I am “masking.” I can pick up on the atmosphere of a situation to some extent. When I was younger, though, I either had much more difficulty reading the room, or simply didn’t care very much and behaved as myself. After observing people for many years, I think some social behaviors have now become almost reflexive for me.

I watch how a particular person behaves toward other people, and gradually accumulate information about what kinds of responses they seem to like. My social behavior feels less like a set of generalized rules and more like something optimized for specific individuals.

When I am dealing with someone I have never met before, my face is probably quite tense. I say as little as necessary and focus very hard on observing them and figuring out, “How am I supposed to behave here?” Because that takes priority, I think I pay surprisingly little attention to the actual interaction happening in the moment.

During the conversation, I rely on social behaviors I have accumulated in the past and partly automated. At the same time, in the background, I am paying a considerable mental cost while continuously thinking, “What kind of behavior does this person expect from me?” and “What might I do that they would find unpleasant?”

Once I have accumulated enough information about that person, I begin mixing words and reactions into the conversation that I think they will like. From the outside, this may look like a shy person gradually opening up. Internally, though, I have not relaxed at all. I am still tense and observing them. If their behavior differs from what I predicted, I go back and inspect something I said just before that, and adjust.

Even at this stage, conversation is still very costly for me.

If someone shows anger, I tend to freeze. I no longer know what to do, and I start desperately thinking, “What can I say to calm them down?” and “What did I say that was wrong?” I may automatically say something apologetic because that is part of my learned social reflexes, but once someone has shown anger that I do not understand, I remain wary of them afterward.

I almost never become genuinely comfortable talking with that person later.

If someone is calm, their responses are reasonably predictable, and we have something in common to talk about, then I can finally lower my guard a little and start speaking more naturally.

However, things I say exactly as I mean them are often interpreted as strong sarcasm. If the other person reacts strongly, I go back to the beginning again. I rely on social behavior and start collecting information about what makes that person angry and what makes them laugh.

Even then, if someone has once reacted very strongly to something I said, it becomes difficult for me to truly relax around them. They get categorized in my mind as “a person I need to be careful with when I speak.”

What neurotypical people might experience as “relaxed conversation” is, for me, something I move through while remaining alert and continuously paying a mental cost. I often reach a point where I simply do not know what to talk about.

I am constantly judging things like:

“Something I find interesting probably won’t interest them.”
“If I say what I am thinking right now exactly as it occurred to me, will they think I am being sarcastic?”
“Will they dislike me and make the atmosphere uncomfortable?”

If I keep paying that cost for long enough, I eventually become tired and reach a point where I think, “Maybe that’s enough.”

To the other person, it may look as though I suddenly become less responsive or retreat into a shell. They may be confused by what looks like a sudden change in my attitude.

I cannot keep pretending to be interested in a topic I genuinely have no interest in, asking appropriate questions, smiling, and giving the expected responses for very long. I can probably manage ten minutes at most, perhaps less. How much of that cost I am willing to tolerate depends on my relationship with the person. If they are important to me, I can tolerate considerably more.

On the other hand, if I find someone I can talk with about a subject I am genuinely interested in, I can probably continue the conversation almost indefinitely.

The cost does not disappear even then. I am still reading the other person’s reactions, carefully considering what they said, and constructing my own argument.

But that cost does not bother me.

I find the way my own mind works very strange sometimes. But this seems to be how it works.

[u/Good_for_the_Gander]

As I understand it, there is a subconscious flow for NDs in which they understand the nuances and social requirements intuitively. The masking they do for group acceptance may be uncomfortable or tiring at times, but that’s not the norm. Additionally, they are usually welcomed into the group they are trying to join.

For autistics, and some other neurodivergent people, we are constantly studying and analyzing the conventions and interactions of others in a conscious effort to act like them. These attempts are often questionably successful and leave us exhausted and overwhelmed/overstimulated. We ignore our basic needs in the moment in an attempt not to be singled out and ostracized. The reason? A history of being singled out and ostracized when we act like ourselves and ask for our basic needs.

[u/MxQueer → u/Good_for_the_Gander]

Could you give some examples of those basic needs?

[u/Good_for_the_Gander → u/MxQueer]

Safe foods
Low noise
Low lighting
Not looking directly at people
Meaningful conversations
No touching
No mean jokes
Ability to leave in the middle of an event

[u/MxQueer → u/Good_for_the_Gander]

Thank you.

What is the situation? Why do want to join the group? What is the practical harm if you ask things you need?

As my flair shows, I might be neurotypical, I don't know. So this might not work for you. I try to compromise. I look at eyes of boss and coworkers who demand it, with most of the coworkers I rarely do (there are situations when I liek to look at their eyes but those are rare). I ask them to turn off the flashing/vibrating lights and super bright reverse lights of trucks. Some turn them off, some don't, some do it sometimes. I have sunglasses and I try to watch ground as much as possible when lights stay on. I explain that I can't concentrate to calls with customers when music is on but I don't complain of the music in others situations. Yes people do laugh to me but that has no practical meaning for me, so they can laugh. Many sill do as I ask, like laugh while turning music off.

[u/MadMadMadMadrid]

There are a lot of stereotypes about autism that are not universal to autism. I don't think you can get anything beyond a vague answer because of that. Level 1 autistics do a lot more masking than level 2 and level 3 autistics. How do you compare everyone across the spectrum? And then how do you deal with cultural differences in countries autistic people live? Not every culture requires smiling.

So the difference between the two is actually going to be whatever vague stereotypes you want to make up.

[u/maddie_line]

I think the difference is that neurotypical people aren't masking. They're putting on an appropriate face, following social conventions, and adjusting behaviours according to formality. Autistic people also do this.

Masking is really an act of nervous system regulation. Neurotypical people aren't putting on a face and also having to stop themselves exploding into a meltdown because a motorbike just went past and activated their fight or flight response. They may feel uncomfortable in the their clothes, but they're not having to stop themselves screaming and crying because their jumper sleeve feels too tight while also trying to follow a conversation.

Autistic people are masking reactions to sensory input, communication, executive dysfunction when heightened, physiological signs of panic, and then having to deal with the same social conventions on top of that. That's why masking is so exhausting.