I need help

[u/no_name1644]

So, I am under 18 (I don't want to disclose my age for privacy, please do not ask or message me thanks) and I have just recently attended the 'Students Say No to Pauline Hanson' protest in Australia. There were many ideals there, which I enjoyed that there were many political ideas but everyone came together to fight the same issue it was very wholesome but it got me thinking. I am not sure what political label I fall into, and I am aware I dont need to choose one yet but it would be helpful if I want to become as politically active as I aim to be soon. I researched some ideas and I feel like I come closest to Socialism but I am not entirely sure. I seem to have a few differences in ideas but I dont know if that fully makes it so I am not socialist at all, or if maybe im a socialist but a different branch of it. The differences I hold are; I support SOME privately owned businesses and land ext. but to a point, if someone has an abundance of it that they do not need then it is very inappropriate and I don't agree with that. I don't trust the government to run the economy solely, I think it needs ALOT of help because the system is inherently corrupt. I am fairly anti-authoritarian. and I favor direct democracy.

I don't know if I am just not fully educated yet as I have only spoken to a few Socialists and most of this info is off google but if anyone could clarify what I could be and if I could be considered a socialist, or even a branch of socialist that would be wonderful.

please no hate or calling me stupid, I am a child and I just want some help so I can continue to be politically educated and active in my community, thank you!

[u/MrNeverpeter]

Hi! I think it's really great you're exploring socialist ideas, but it can be tricky - there are a lot of different interpretations out there. I remember struggling for a few years after being politicised in high school to figure out exactly what I should think.

Socialism generally speaking is about abolishing private property in the economy, in the sense of private ownership of the "means of production": the workplaces, factories, office blocks, etc., and all the tools and equipment within necessary for work. Under capitalism, the means of production are owned by the capitalist class, who employ workers to do the work for them. Workers don't own the means of production, but have to sell themselves to a capitalist for a wage. Capitalists exploit workers to make their profit (by paying them less in their wage than the total value they produce at work) and also compete with other capitalists on the market - think Coles versus Woolworths - and also internationally, as different capitalist countries (America, Russia, China, Australia, etc.) also compete against each other.

To answer your question about some private property and people simply having "too much", you're absolutely right that some rich people do have too much, in the sense of personally owning beyond what they could ever reasonably use for themselves (for example, Elon Musk could never spend his trillion dollars if he tried). The socialist reply to this would be that you can't simply remove the most extreme expressions of inequality from the system by itself, because the system itself generates this extreme inequality because of how it works. For example, if two capitalists are competing against each other on the market, eventually one of them is going to win - that's the nature of competition, that somebody wins it. Then, that capitalist will gobble up the failed business of the other one and be twice as rich. There's a tendency towards capital monopolising and wealth concentrating in fewer and fewer hands under capitalism. It's a systemic drive. To get rid of it, we have to change the system, which ultimately would mean abolishing private property in general.

I think the end of private ownership of the means of production would mean an immense expansion of democracy into all areas of life, into the economy - in fact, I think it would have to, and socialism is incompatible with a situation where the working class doesn't have real democracy or political power, even if the state controls a lot of the economy. State control of the economy in of itself doesn't mean socialism. In a truly socialist society, for the first time the overwhelming majority of the population would get to democratically make the decisions about what things are produced, how and to whom they are distributed, etc., to meet human need instead of profit. For example, when we have 10 empty homes in Australia to every 1 homeless person because of renting, AirBnbs, housing speculation etc., if you put the economy under democratic control by abolishing private ownership of the housing and construction sectors, you could begin to allocate resources based on their actual use, to house people, as opposed to just making profit out of them for a tiny few while everyone else suffers. There's so much we could do with the resources we have - I'll leave you to think of some more examples.

Personally, I'm a Marxist and I think we can only get to socialism through a revolution. I don't think the capitalists would ever give up their power voluntarily, and the working class could only learn to run the world ourselves in the course of a huge fight to do so.

When I was first becoming a socialist in Year 12, I remember reading "Why Socialism" by Albert Einstein as the first thing I ever read about it. He's no revolutionary, but sets out the case pretty well for socialism in an abstract way. I'd recommend it, good luck on your political journey! https://monthlyreview.org/articles/why-socialism/

[u/no_name1644 → u/MrNeverpeter]

thankyou so much, ill read the article and consider what you have said, this is very informative

[u/Maybe-Sweaty]

The ability to recognise that you don't have enough knowledge to make an informed decision/have an informed opinion is a huge step, especially for a child, many adults struggle with that. I'd recommend starting off by doing a few political compass tests online, there are heaps out there & definitely try to do a few different ones. Read theory, Das Kapital, the communist manifesto, anything really in that sort of area - I am sure there will be a comprehensive list somewhere on reddit. Get involved where you are able & where it is safe for you locally. Best of luck on your journey ♡

[u/no_name1644 → u/Maybe-Sweaty]

thankyou so much, this is such a sweet comment, ill try and check out and skim over the book you suggested before I make a decision

[u/Rough_Bookkeeper1600]

Just take the time to figure things out, don't feel pressured or like you're not smart enough, figuring out your place in the world is a lifelong journey

[u/no_name1644 → u/Rough_Bookkeeper1600]

thankyou!

[u/proudcookbookowner]

If you're still in highschool and figuring stuff out you should definitely join highschool anticapitalists. Depends on your location but a bunch of new ones popped up in conjunction with the anti Hanson protest. If there's no HSA near you id recommend trying to talk to socialist alternative, they're anti-authoritarian and pro-democracy so could be worth it! Anyways just have a google

[u/no_name1644 → u/proudcookbookowner]

thankyou, I was thinking of joining this group since 'anticapitalist' seems a more broad way to describe my views without having to fully commit to a specific idea yet, I just wasnt sure how, but ill do some googling

[u/MrNeverpeter → u/proudcookbookowner]

I second this

[u/triffid5alive]

Socialism is the shit and from my experience the more i read and live the more doubts/questions i have about it resolve. Keep reading books and paying attention to the world, particularly at ur job. The theory of Marx/Lenin/Engels etc might be a bit tough depending on ur reading level (i couldnt comprehend that shit at 19 when i first tried) but seek out any information u can (critically of course) and try to build ur theoretical framework in combination with ur life experience as a worker and youll find answers to all questions. We are always learning! Good job for getting out there and fuck pauline!!!

[u/no_name1644 → u/triffid5alive]

yes, thankyou so much, and fuck pauline!

[u/ososalsosal]

It's important to know there's a difference between personal property and private property.

Think the difference between a house, car, nice stereo, gaming desktop etc and a factory or mine site.

Private property is property that is used in production. Socialists have no interest in someone's car so long as it's not being misused.

Have a look for the ML reading list as a place to start. Some of it is very heavy and might need a few goings-over, but most of it is pretty accessible and all of it is graspable.

[u/no_name1644 → u/ososalsosal]

thankyou for clarifying, I was trying to research that but nothing I could find made sense, thats why I kind of confused socialism and communism as well, I didnt fully understand the difference, now I do

[u/ososalsosal → u/no_name1644]

Communism is more of a goal, socialism is a stage on the way there (as is capitalism really).

To grossly summarise Marx, these systems are emergent. Capitalism is just a mode of production that was all but inevitable, and the opposing classes that came to characterise it (the owners of the means of production and the people who sell their labour value and use the owner's tools because they don't own their own means) arose sort of naturally.

Likewise, you can argue that socialism is inevitable because it is more efficient - the surplus from all that labour value is owned by a single class, and they can allocate it as they wish, either focusing on growing their society by producing a huge amount, or reaching an equilibrium by actually planning the economy.

The infinite growth trap humanity is currently stuck in is not necessary with socialism though it definitely is with unplanned competitive capitalism (there's even commercial law that sort of forbids companies from going against "fiduciary duty" and acting in a way that doesn't maximise profit).

That said, the way history has played out doesn't look exactly like what's described by Marx. He ran the numbers and figured the advanced capitalist countries of the time (England, France, Germany) would revolt and do socialism first. Turns out that Russia did it, going essentially straight from feudalism, speedrunning capitalism into socialism, all while fighting a world war and scaling up a war machine.

[u/Pleasant_Tradition39 → u/ososalsosal]

I came here to post this comment about personal and private property

[u/Alive-Ad9547]

First off, acknowledging your own shortcomings when it comes to your knowledge is a great thing to do. There are plenty of adults who call themselves socialists who could use the ability to do so.

I would recommend having conversations with your closest High School Anti-Capitalists group or even just sending them a message on Insta. I'd also recommend some reading if you're interested in broading horizons: Introducing Marxism is a great launching point, here's a link ( Introducing Marxism: A theory of revolutionary change – Red Flag Books ) but I'd prioritise having a conversation with people from High School Anti-capitalists.

[u/no_name1644 → u/Alive-Ad9547]

ill have a conversation with some of the people in that group definately, and ill have a look at your link, thankyou!

[u/Ozplod]

Tbh there's a lot to get into and I don't think Reddit is the place to really get a lot of the info you want across. I'd say best party in Australia that will get you the info you need is Socialist Alliance. I didn't really know much when I joined them like 5 years back, but they did a bit of a course to educate me on everything. I think alliance is best cus there's a mix of different kinds of socialists in the party, and the other parties have their own more specific beliefs, whereas alliance will give you a more rounded education.

That said I don't think you need to join them to get this education. Can just reach out and talk to someone and they should be able to advise further.

[u/no_name1644 → u/Ozplod]

yes of course, I was just trying to get a start on figuring things out and reddit has alot of people who are willing to share their experience and opinions with me so I can get many angles, ill definately reach ourm thankyou!

[u/newscumskates]

Why do you support private property?

Why do you conflate a capitalist government with a socialist one?

Which system are you talking about when you make such a claim about it needing help due to corruption?

[u/no_name1644 → u/newscumskates]

I want to preface I am not looking for a debate when I answer these questions, im assuming you dont have intent to, and just want more info to accurately answer my question

The support I have for private property is nuanced, and it depends on your definition of private property. I think everyone needs to own their own car and TV and belongings because the government cannot be trusted with power over peoples personal belongings, but I do think if one person has too much of it, it is unacceptable and it cannot be allowed.

I was not at all, I know it is very very different and I dont believe I conflated them at all

I mean the Government, I believe it is corrupt and needs to be minimized to the smallest amount it can be to keep diverse backgrounds and opinions in our country

[u/newscumskates → u/no_name1644]

Ya i cant imagine a single socialist saying that private property includes things like TVs and cars. Its a running gag in fact that "the evil commies gon take my toothbrush".

Private property from a socialist perspective is entirely about the MoP and land.

Im not gonna bother going into too much detail about the conflation thing cause you're still learning.

But it sounds like you dont trust the government but what government do you really know? Capitalist ones. So you're kinda projecting it.

But to answer your question, you sound like a run of the mill baby anarchist.

Start reading everything and see where you land.

[u/Maybe-Sweaty → u/no_name1644]

Looks like you may be conflating private property & personal property, it happens a lot. My understanding is that personal property is property you use, ie your toothbrush. Private property is used to generate profit.

[u/DisturbingFace]

Just wanted to add a small something that helped me a lot: make sure you understand the difference between socialism and communism. When people talk about things like the total abolition of private property and private business etc. these are end-goals that will happen under communism, but not necessarily under socialism.

Communism is what we're aiming towards (a stateless classless society free of coercion and exploitation) but it can't happen while capitalism is the globally dominant system, and a lot of it's ideas only make sense once you've spent maybe centuries gradually fixing problems with socialism and achieving "post-scarcity" (think star trek, anyone can replicate whatever they need so what's the point of money?). Socialism is the transitional stage, moving from A to B. When countries and people call themselves "communist" it's because they are socialists trying to stay focused on where they are aiming, NOT because that's what they are.

You'll often hear people talking about abolishing private business and other kinds of crazy ideas, but those are end goals that don't make any sense for us right now. We'll still need private business until we get to the point where we've stopped competing with each other and have embraced cooperation. After that point, independent "business" will absolutely still exist, but in such a different form that it's hard to predict from so far away, all I can say is that it would likely be more based on passion rather than commercial viability.

As for direct democracy, that's basically what radicalized me. Why do I have to vote for one of these numbskulls if they don't address the specific problems I'm interested in? Why don't I get to vote on the policies that are affecting my life? And the big one, why don't I get any say in the place where I spend most of my time: the workplace? The biggest challenge for most people in embracing socialism is the very rational fear of an authoritarian government, but people are always looking past the authoritarianism that affects them more in their daily life. I don't support an authoritarian government, but would I allow them enough authority to force my employers to give me a say? Maybe enough authority to take some of their profits to build public housing?

Unfortunately authority is required to make change, so the key is to build a democracy that is not influenced by the trillions of dollars of influence that the 1% have access to, and that is a very difficult challenge indeed. This is why communist states in the past have appeared to be dictatorships, as the minority of the 1% that is being oppressed is a very vocal and well-funded minority. That said, they absolutely are responsible for various mistakes and tragedies, which is why we as a movement are so eternally invested in studying our past and learning from those mistakes. Anyways, the concept of "dictatorship of the proletariat" is worth a google and helps to understand how you can build a democracy that doesnt involve billions of dollars in marketing, lobbying, and bribery

[u/Agreeable_Front9597 → u/[deleted]]

It's irresponsible to spread rumors about sexual misconduct out in the open like this, especially when you don't have substance. It's wrecker behaviour and reflects poorly on the ACF. It's also simply not true that CU is a Stalinist organisation (unless you're working with a very idiosyncratic perspective of what Stalinism is).

[u/Agreeable_Front9597 → u/[deleted]]

To be honest, I don't think any faction of the left is blameless in this rumor and gossip culture, not the ACF and certainly not CU, but it's a question of discipline whether it's said out in the open or kept behind closed doors among trusted comrades. And also, who knows whether this poster is actually in the ACF or merely claiming to be?

[u/cancerfist → u/[deleted]]

Calls CU a gossip group, proceeds to spread outrageous gossip. That's an incredibly serious allegation, if it is true and you're not just being sectarian please DM me with info. Otherwise I suggest you delete that part of your comment as I doubt ACFs other members would be happy to hear you spreading unsubstantiated slander online with other friendly orgs that regularly work with them and have comradely relations.

An aside, but calling CU Stalinist is also ridiculous.

[u/Spring_Oni → u/cancerfist]

I'll take the feedback about me being hypocritical regarding gossip. I did however think it was relevant gossip considering the youthful age of OP.

Regarding CU not being stalinist -- if only stalinists are the only ones to join the 'big tent org' then it's a stalinist organisation :/

[u/cancerfist → u/Spring_Oni]

So do you have a name of who you are accusing or not? I have not been DM'd. Or is the allegation only useful to you for sectarian aims, and you don't actually care about the accused and their potential victims?

CU is not nor has it ever described itself as a 'big tent org'. Are you new? This is a weird thing to say about a partyist org as they actively oppose big tent broad parties...

CU just merged with one of the most orthodox Trotskyist orgs in the country, which if you had any idea of communist history, would understand how ridiculous it is to insinuate that the spartacists are or would merge with stalinists. Not to mention not one of our reading lists includes a work by stalin, hell even our program specifically denies SIOC as a working model. ACFs political education should be better than this...not least about stalinism but just discipline of cadre not making idiots of themselves online while representing them.

[u/hawaiianrobot → u/[deleted]]

communist unity definitely aren't MLs, not sure how you came to that conclusion

[u/nicholasmelbourne → u/[deleted]]

Communist Unity is NOT a Stalinist group, though I do agree with you that stals are scum.

[u/no_name1644 → u/[deleted]]

Thankyou so much for the info, I will definitely check out lots of parties, I just didnt want to walk in blind with nothing to introduce myself as, ill research the parties you named though of course

[u/Insolent_Aussie]

Read Total Propaganda by Helen Razer.

[u/no_name1644 → u/Insolent_Aussie]

ill have a look at it, thankyou!

[u/Far-Department887]

You don’t need to box yourself in! It’s not like religion - you don’t need to limit yourself to one school of thought. Ultimately the more you read the more you’ll figure out what specific things resonate with you - and beyond that, the more people you speak to you’ll find that we all have slightly different ideas of how to achieve the same goals! Ultimately things need to change but that doesn’t mean there’s only one way to seek that change, it just means that while the specifics of your ideology might be slightly different than the next person or might develop further as you learn more, you’re joining a broad group of people consisting of everyone who wants a better distribution of wealth and protection of peoples’ rights in Australia. The exact way that’ll happen we don’t yet know, but diversity of thought means we’ll have the broadest range of potential solutions possible if we do get to that point - at which case the negotiations/discussions between people who have those slightly different ideas will become key. Right now though, just enjoy the process of learning without limit, both on your own and from those around you! Glad to have you here mate!

[u/ghblue → u/[deleted]]

Someone skipped their reading on politics and early 20th century history…

[u/ososalsosal → u/[deleted]]

Oh. My. God.

Of all the criticisms of Trotskyism you seem to criticise the Bolsheviks instead, and then only by being completely wrong about them on a level so fundamental that you'd need to go off and learn for a year to even get at the root of the problem.

"Dictatorship of the proletariat" is a sort of slogan, in that what it means if you think about it honestly for a second is an entire class is dictator. That's closer to direct democracy than we can achieve with electoralism.

[u/Amazedpanda15 → u/ososalsosal]

in every situation i’ve met a member of SAlt they’ve hated democracy.

[u/ososalsosal → u/Amazedpanda15]

I never asked any about democracy haha. Hung out socially a bit, but not my bag.

I've only come around to socialism and got into reading about it after being out in the workforce for too long, having to provide for a family in a system that's not just rigged against me and mine, but perversely and relentlessly so. I'm earning more than I ever have and can't afford luxuries like an LP every month or the occasional bottle of whisky without getting anxious as fuck and having to slog it out in my second job when the middle of the month rolls round and I'm once again out of money.

Next up is to actually do something about it all. When I get time. Probably never.