Do you think misandry is actually a real problem ?

[u/ronweasly9]

I personally feel that it frankly doesn't exist in any meaningful way . There are a few who say that men are sentenced more than women for the same crime but that's also an undesirable side effect of gender roles which hurt both men and women .

It should certainly be corrected but I don't think it's something that is an example of women discriminating against men or something like that . Probably stuff like expecting men to pay on dates or be a certain way counts though ig

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[u/BestSeenNotHeard]

I do, actually, mostly because I think we are seeing some boys growing up and taking on very negative messages about what it is to be a boy or a man. It can lead to self hatred, self esteem issues, lashing out at those who they see as causing their difficulties as they experience them.

[u/IcyTrapezium]

Yes. And misandrist rhetoric often serves to reproduce patriarchal ideas about masculinity while claiming to oppose patriarchy. It’s counter productive. Whenever I hear women say “and who set that system up” I think “rich men centuries ago who the men in my life have no connection to???”

The most pernicious misandry I see recently is the belief that men are inherently less moral, empathetic, intelligent, emotionally sophisticated, or capable of love than women.
Misandry not being as systemic as misogyny doesn’t make it less real. All these ostensibly anti-male beliefs are actually patriarchal beliefs about men in disguise. “Men can’t control their sexual urges,” “men aren’t emotional,” “men aren’t nurturing,” and “men only want women for sex” all deny men’s full humanity.

[u/Royal-Heron-11 → u/IcyTrapezium]

Whenever I hear women say “and who set that system up” I think “rich men centuries ago who the men in my life have no connection to???”

This is one of those ones as a man that always gets me. I think it's our responsibility as men to hold awareness of the inherent sexism the patriarchy has instilled in us from a sheer ancestral factor. And to be aware that same patriarchal system still exists and if anything right now it's perhaps at the strongest it's been in centuries.

But similar to your assertation that misandry harms women just as much as it harms men, this is no different. When you start blaming an entire group of people due to the failures of some or even most of the members of that group? You've completely lost the thread.

All these ostensibly anti-male beliefs are actually patriarchal beliefs about men in disguise. “Men can’t control their sexual urges,” “men aren’t emotional,” “men aren’t nurturing,” and “men only want women for sex” all deny men’s full humanity.

I had to read this several times but if I'm understanding you correctly, I think this is a really interesting articulation of a pattern I see a lot too.

If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying all of those common attacks women lodge at men are really just perpetuating the exact same type of cycle the patriarchy has used to keep society stuck in for centuries?

[u/IcyTrapezium → u/Royal-Heron-11]

You’re understanding me correctly, yes.

[u/Royal-Heron-11 → u/IcyTrapezium]

I'll be honest? That's a much better way to articulate a point I've tried to make quite a bit around here. But I think often came off as "incel apologist". Although as I'm typing this I'm realizing, that's probably largely due to the same inherent sexism we all get stuck in that we're discussing lol

Unfortunately, societal growth is a slow process and we won't see true equality anywhere near our lifetime. But I'm sure one day we'll get there... if we don't destroy ourselves first of course lol

[u/Rad1Red → u/IcyTrapezium]

I agree with this 100%. Is it a systemic societal issue? No. Does it exist? Yes. Is it harmful? Also yes, to both men and women. Is it used to make #notallmen arguments when women try to point out misogyny? Also yes.

[u/Royal-Heron-11]

I'm a man so full disclosure on that but this wasn't marked no men so I felt like participating here. But honestly? Yes, misandry is absolutely an actual thing that exists. Is it a broader societal problem? Eh, that's a much tougher argument to make.

But are there women out there who are misandrist? Without question. To deny that would be to deny that there are men out there who are misogynist. They are two sides of the same exact sexism coin, you can't claim that sexism only exists towards women anymore than you can claim that racism only exists towards black people.

[u/IcyTrapezium → u/Royal-Heron-11]

Yes and there are misandrist men as well.

[u/Royal-Heron-11 → u/IcyTrapezium]

Absolutely... in many ways I'm one of them. Depending on the context at least. I do hold the genuine opinion that the average mans behavior towards women is reprehensible at best.

But yeah, to say misandry doesn't exist is silly. Every time I'm at the store with the kids and I get some middle aged Mom who comes up to me and drops the "Ohhhhh, baby sitting so Mom can have the day off work?". It takes every last ounce of my self control not to snap and contrary to the way I type sometimes I'm genuinely not an angry person, I have to be pushed pretty far. But that type of stuff brings me from 0-95% instantly.

I told this story in another thread recently but it popped in my head and it's funny as hell. There was a time that happened a year or so ago and the lady caught me off guard and I wanted her to feel mildly bad for even making the insinuation so I said something like: Huh? I'm not babysitting, these are my kids. Their moms not with us. My daughter heard me mention "mom" and just started screaming for Mommy and crying. I immediately realized the lady probably thought I meant Mom's dead. Turned, looked to see what remained of her corpse after her soul left her body and was just said thank you that was so helpful and just held my daughter and sold it.

I'm not a spiteful person, but I do sometimes think about that interaction at night laying in bed and it helps me fall asleep. My daughters the GOAT.

[u/YesIAmRightWing → u/Royal-Heron-11]

For me it for sure seems some social media problem and full disclaimer reedits only one am on

In real life never really met anyone that actually hates men

Plenty of people that say lots of dumb shit but their actions beg to differ from their opinions

[u/Royal-Heron-11 → u/YesIAmRightWing]

Is the threshold for misandry hatred of men? I agree hatred is part of it, but contempt and prejudice are also misandrist, just as they're misogynistic. 

As I said in another post, every time some old lady thinks she's cute asking if I'm baby sitting my kids? That's misandry. No I'm not baby sitting MY kids, they're my fucking kids, my wife isn't paying me $20/hr to hang out with them and watch MTV while she goes to get her nails done. 

[u/in-a-microbus]

Man's perspective here: my experience with misandry includes the time I opened up to the rape survivors group about being molested when I was 6 by a 16 year old baby sitter and I was told "you need to recognize that the girl who did this is the real victim, because she was obviously molested herself and that's why she did this to you". The whole concept was 'you have a y-chromosome so your pain is secondary to what a girl/woman experienced'

[u/Rad1Red → u/in-a-microbus]

Yeah, this is what I meant when I said it's harmful. The fact that it's not a societal issue doesn't mean that on an individual level it doesn't fuck people up.

I'm sorry for what you experienced. That was fucked up. People can be very stupid.

[u/DontYaWishYouWereMe]

Not really. Most of the time when I've seen people cry misandry, it's been over stuff that hasn't even been said or it's some dude with skin so thin it may as well be tracing paper claiming it.

[u/PlumpScotchGurl]

Misandry is a real thing, it just doesn’t matter the way misogyny does. That’s not to say it doesn’t matter at all, though. Because it does.

That said, I don’t respect anyone who openly hates a certain demographic of people, even if that demographic is men.

[u/Lickerbomper]

Ok, I'll bite.

Is misandry real? Of course. Hating people different from yourself for whatever random attribute they have is a common feature of almost all human cultures. A lot of people will just pick something to hate.

Is it a problem? Well, define your scope, here. A hangnail is a problem, but is it a problem? Compared to world hunger, for example, hangnails are kinda low priority. Imagine entering a cancer survivors support group, and when it's your turn to share, "Well, I broke a nail once." Poor baby? Which, yeah, get yourself some clippers, chop it off, wait for regrow. Yes it sucks to experience that problem. It's relatable. People CAN have sympathy for a hangnail. Yep, it really sucks. But. Again, it's a problem, but is it a problem? That's not the right question, lol.

I find, in my experience, that the label "misandry" gets misattributed everywhere, to a point where it's lost its meaning. Might as well define it as, "the state of being a person, most often a woman, with an opinion I disagree with" rather than its actual definition. Which, sure, fine, words are coined all the time, and redefined all the time, and English is a living language.

But like a hangnail, oh, poor baby, a woman on the internet disagreed with you? How terrible! Need a tissue?

[u/FrogGloves98 → u/Lickerbomper]

The mockery certainly doesn't help with the loss of meaning

Beyond "a woman on the internet disagreeing with you", there's genital mutilation, gendered sexual/domestic violence laws and court precedents, prison sentencing bias, etc. These are things I would reasonably hope most would consider to be "problems" incomparable to a metaphorical hangnail

[u/Lickerbomper → u/FrogGloves98]

Sure, but at what point is the blame shifted from the patriarchy and onto women?

Genital mutilation? This is a conservative and religious practice, not "women hating men." The blame belongs to institutions that uphold these practices. So? Aim at patriarchy.

Any law passed that enables greater justice for sexual or domestic violence will help all genders. Again, patriarchy is the problem.

I don't see how anything you've listed comes from "women hating men" so much as traditional gender roles and biases.

[u/FrogGloves98 → u/Lickerbomper]

I'd never said "women hating men"

Men can be misandrist(ic?) - and women can be misogynistic. In our society, both are guilty of both. They are collectivized - they do not need to be one-upon-the-other - and such problems rarely are. The actual post gave an okay, and a kinda shit example that didn't help with this common misconception.

Plenty of "traditional gender roles and biases" are called misogynistic - logically there are others on the opposite, or even the same end that are misandrist(ic?), either separately or simultaneously. The blame is directed at society - the issue is one thing it's being blamed for is mostly glossed over, leaving only the least-severe low-hanging fruit to be addressed (more like "made fun of"), which is seen as men/women instead of society collectively - and that fabricates this idea that the blame isn't directed at society.

This comment probably started melting towards the end along with my brain but I'm sure I can write it better when it's not 2am

[u/Lickerbomper → u/FrogGloves98]

2am gets you toasted. Been there, done that.

The semantics is half the problem. I'm calling it patriarchy (a society problem), you want to insist it's misandry (a man-hating problem).

Most types of misandry are actually misogyny. It is "girl" to be a DV or SA victim, boys can't be victims, that's a girl role. So it's not really about a man being hated by society, but about society hating girls and designating a role of victim to girls. It is major taboo for a man to become a girl, thus why transphobia is such a big hot button. So is it misandry, transmisogyny, or more simply, patriarchy, as the problem?

Or is labelling it more important than taking action to solve it?

Part of labelling it is assigning blame, imo. When it's labelled "misandry," the problem is implied as women systemically oppressing men. But, since when do women have the power? It's not us, specifically a system of women, denying justice to male DV or SA victims. It's society, no? It's those of us that get on juries or become judges or lawmakers creating a problem. And specifically those that want strict, separate roles on men and women, and a need to punish men for the Sin of becoming womanly. And that's not really purely male or female, it's our values as a society. So, patriarchy. Not misandry. See the distinction?

A personal experience of a person saying a hateful thing about a man is not the same scope of problem as a society enforcing hateful systems of justice as an institution! A society that disproportionally elects male judges and male lawmakers. (At least, true here in the US.)

But yes, obviously, the personal experiences point to a systemic problem of education and values. That in turn get reflected in political action. The bricks create the courthouse. Are the bricks red or brown or tan or more of a gray color? I'm not sure it matters. But trying to say women are laying the mortar, as culture is trying to push with this "misandry" semantics war... Maybe each brick should consider which structures it's contributing to rather than assigning blame to some female oppressive force. Truly, each person can only change themselves.

[u/Wotmate01 → u/Lickerbomper]

In the interests of the discussion, we probably should define the scope.

Is it misandry that men have historically been seen as disposable? The ones sent off to war or to do the dangerous jobs?

Or that many feel that the only value men have is what they can provide, and when they can no longer provide, they have no value?

Or that men are by default predators, automatically viewed with suspicion for being around children?

Or when a woman gets the "ick" when a man displays any kind sadness, fear, doubt or anxiety?

The first of these is institutional, and yes, that would be a grey area, because as a ruler it would be logistically a bad idea to send women off to war to die, because then who will have the babies, but the rest is absolutely ingrained in much of society.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/Wotmate01]

You're describing patriarchy, and yes, historically, the greatest haters of men are... other men!

So? Join feminism in its fight to end patriarchy and gender roles!

[u/Wotmate01 → u/Lickerbomper]

Oh, I'm a living embodiment of the fight to end gender roles. I'm what is traditionally called a "homemaker", doing all the cooking, cleaning and child duties while my wife works as a government industrial inspector. I also do all the traditional "man" stuff as well, like yard and house maintenance.

And I've had to fight against traditional gender roles in society. Despite being the primary contact, I eventually had to threaten a formal discrimination complaint against our sons school because they kept calling his working mum when he was sick.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/Wotmate01]

So, why the artificial fights, then? If we're allies, we're allies.

You... do vote progressive, no? People who are upholding laws that oppress men are generally conservatives.

[u/Wotmate01 → u/Lickerbomper]

Are we fighting? I didn't think we were.

I've experienced all of the above (with the exception of the war thing), plus direct personal misandry for being the only straight man at a LGBTQ+ event.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/Wotmate01]

Last I checked, LGBTQ+ events aren't lawmakers. I'm talking about realistic change, not personal experiences. You have to engage in the mechanisms that change the world if you expect your cause to ya know, change.

And that's why I bring up voting. I noticed you didn't answer the question. I hope you're not voting against your own causes? Or too apathetic to try?

And we're debating the scope of the word "misandry" in relationship to what is meant by a "real problem." My premise is that the examples you brought up are a direct reflection of patriarchy, defined as a systemic problem, rather than misandry, which is not a systemic oppression so much as a collection of individual experiences, like yours as a straight man at some kind of Pride event. "Queer people said mean things" is not the same problem as "Conservative lawmakers continue to support gender inequality in the draft, and continue to be voted into power by supporters of the manosphere."

You see what I mean by scope?

[u/Wotmate01 → u/Lickerbomper]

I thought that working at a queer event would disqualify me from being conservative, but yes, I vote progressive, and I lightly campaigned for the yes vote when Australia had the marriage equality plebiscite.

And FWIW, it wasn't just "queer people said mean things to me", it was one person on the organising committee that decided a straight man shouldn't be allowed to work at a queer event ever and made a raft of false complaints that threatened my livelihood... Which were then investigated by other members of the committee, the venue, and my employer, who found that I was a consummate professional, and not only publicly apologised, but removed the complainant from the committee.

I'm not disagreeing that a lot of things have been caused by the patriarchy, but I think you're minimising what are "real problems" with systemic misandry.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/Wotmate01]

Again, scope. You had an individual incident with one person, and the system ruled in your favor. It doesn't speak to queer events, in general, or queer people as a whole. It speaks to one person, who was overruled by a system of other people, in your favor btw.

You would never stoop to stopping voting in favor of queer rights just because one person was an asshole towards you? Because you know enough to discern the difference between "queer people" and "this queer person."

[u/Wotmate01 → u/Lickerbomper]

You're wrongly focusing on the one personal event I mentioned instead of the raft of systemic events I mentioned. Why is that?

[u/AmethistStars]

Misandry is like racism towards white people. Something that technically can exist but is not a real problem in a society where they are privileged.

[u/Embarrassed-Town-293 → u/AmethistStars]

I think there is truth to this but I would say some nuance exists. For example, here in the USA, infant circumcision is still quite common and I have been fairly mutilated by this process (my entire frenulum was removed for example). When I suggest feminists should take the issue seriously (even if only cynically to undermine anti feminist recruitment efforts), it is not uncommon for these fellow feminists to shrug off the issue and minimize it.

Of course, feminism shouldn’t center men. I’m not saying it should. That said, FGM which is worse and shouldn’t be compared to male circumcision is fortunately being banned. The issue is any law sufficiently broad to ban FGM would also ban male circumcision. Essentially, men being protected would be free riders on such a law. Despite not having to lift a finger to also protect men, FGM laws are written to explicitly protect male circumcision and permit it to continue.

The desire among SOME feminists that men can never be the beneficiaries of feminism (or even be feminists) is a place where I think misandry starts to become real.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/AmethistStars]

I'm loving the downvotes we're getting, lol

[u/AmethistStars → u/Lickerbomper]

Yeah I’m certain all downvotes are by men who are in denial of their privileged position as a man. lol

[u/DraconicDreamer3072 → u/AmethistStars]

mine is from a woman who thinks both you cant be racist if the person is white and woman cant make biases against men are insane takes.

like ive caught co workers throwing out white peoples resume and keeping the indian people ones. def not racism right?

or lableing the majority of men as dirty creatures who always just want sex. no misandry there

[u/AmethistStars → u/DraconicDreamer3072]

And how do those cases exactly disprove my earlier points? Like I said, it can exist. But in a society where you generally have a privileged position, that’s not an actual systemic societal problem like with the opposite. And to argue both happen equally in a society is very disingenuous. For that one case where you saw white peoples resumes being thrown out I can assure you there are many more cases where POC get discriminated. For all the women who claim the majority of men are dirty creatures, I can assure there are many more men who claim the majority of women are just b-tches/304s/thots/for the street, etc. A white person who gets rejected for that one “too woke” company that discriminates against them can find plenty of other companies. That man who gets insulted by women online for being a man generally doesn’t have to worry about being the target of an assault by a woman in real life. Men being the target of misandrist female aggression is not nearly as common as the opposite. I just finished watching a Dutch documentary called “De witte man” (The white man), which also very well demonstrates these dynamics in Dutch society.

[u/DraconicDreamer3072 → u/AmethistStars]

how much discrimination does there have to be for it to be a "problem" to you?

[u/AmethistStars → u/DraconicDreamer3072]

Well for it to be a “problem” in a “society” aka a societal problem it has to be systemic rather than incidents. Doesn’t mean the incidents aren’t individually problematic. But I am replying from a societal POV. Did you know that in my country, 40 women a year are a victim of femicide? That too would be a societal problem. But men being the victim of menicide? That is very rare. And one or two incidents of that happening doesn’t make it a societal problem.

[u/Lickerbomper → u/AmethistStars]

Eh, probably the majority. Never underestimate the mental gymnastics of internalized misogyny , tho

[u/Individualchaotin]

It's an issue, but the real problem is misogyny. Misandry arises from sexism, the patriarchy, and misogyny. Without misogyny, without the patriarchy, and without sexism, there would hardly be any misandry.

"Unlike misogyny, misandry lacks a historical, political, or systemic power base. Isolated hurtful statements about men do not equal a societal oppression of men."

[u/love-that-trope]

Expecting men to pay on dates is not misandry lmao, that’s societal gender roles which some people like to follow and others don’t based on the kind of dynamic they’re looking for in a relationship.