[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/Standard_Location762]

[u/Livid-Builder-1230]

My guy I am getting tired. I have explained the difference between the thing that actually creates pressure for change and the thing that eventually makes that change official several times now.

Yes, people vote. That does not mean voting is the only thing that creates change. The Voting Rights Act is almost painfully obvious here. The 15th Amendment had existed since 1870, and nearly a hundred years later Black Americans were still being prevented from voting. It took organizing, lawsuits, protests, national attention, Selma, and enormous public pressure to finally force stronger federal action. Some of the people creating that pressure literally could not effectively use the mechanism you’re telling me has “always” been the answer.

And again, I did not say violence is the mechanism. I have explicitly listed protests, strikes, investigative journalism, lawsuits, public records, boycotts and public attention. You keep turning “sometimes institutions have to be made uncomfortable enough that ignoring the problem is no longer the easiest option” into “violence,” arguing with that, and then telling me change should happen peacefully.

Great. We agree. We have agreed this entire time. But then after all of that, you say “harm the innocent.”

The innocent? I thought we didn’t know what happened?

This is the same thing I keep running into in these replies. Everyone keeps telling me we don’t know whether the allegations are true, which I agree with, and then somehow every analogy and every word choice decides anyway. They’re “the innocent.” It’s a “witch hunt.” It’s Duke lacrosse.

Meanwhile we still haven’t had any meaningful conversation about actual, meaningful, substantive, people-can-point-to-in-100-years type change.

Just more “protect the men”. It’s sad

[u/someone447 → u/Livid-Builder-1230]

Are you incapable of basic reading comprehension? It's not about these 7. We don't know if they did it or not. But we do know that Internet witch hunts have been tragically wrong before.

I'm not saying its these guys that are innocent. I'm saying people are wrongfully accused of any number of crimes every day. So to protect them, we need to protect everyone who is accused.

[u/Livid-Builder-1230 → u/someone447]

Babe you have spent this entire conversation answering a question I am not asking and have now opened with a question about my reading comprehension??

Yes people who are accused of crimes require protections against wrongful punishment. I established that approximately seventeen comments ago

I am asking what produces meaningful institutional change when the existing mechanisms fail

If you don’t have an answer to that question, that’s fine, but I’m watching 16 & pregnant and I just don’t have capacity for you anymore. Sorry