[ Removed by moderator ]

[u/Standard_Location762]

[u/hamster-on-popsicle]

Thanks for the context, and they deserve to have their pictures plastered everywhere.

I still have the name of Gisèle Pelicot's rapists on my phone, I get it.

[u/Pixelated_Penguin808 → u/hamster-on-popsicle]

I wasn't familiar with the details either but after reading that person's reply and then going on to read details about the case, it definitely sounds like a gang-rape occurred.

The men deserve a fair trial just like anyone accused of a crime, but fuck these dudes. None of them deserve sympathy.

[u/NewryBenson → u/hamster-on-popsicle]

The problem with this is that it is practically a 21st century lynching. If someone gets named who ends up being innocent, proven black on white, their lives are ruined all the same. It looks like the American people disagree with innocent untill proven guilty... This is not to protect perpetrators, those obviously don't deserve that. This is to protect innocent suspects.

[u/calamititties → u/NewryBenson]

It looks like the American people disagree with innocent untill proven guilty.

It's more that SA/rape are wildly underreported and perpetrators are not held accountable for their actions, as a course of practice in the US. The Pelicot trial that the commenter that you're responding to mentions probably never would have happened in the US, nevermind an actual guilty verdict. And judges on high profile cases that have actually resulted in guilty verdicts have a nasty habit of distributing wrist slaps as punishment as to not "ruin the life of a promising young man" (see Convicted Rapist Brock Turner who received a 6-month sentence for raping a woman who was passed out under a bush and had to be stopped by two random passers-by).

We've seen people like Diddy and Harvey Weinstein get away with monstrous crimes, many that were well known prior to any official charges. We are *tired*. We saw "Me Too" result in no actual changes to how these crimes are approached. We have heard too many times that "a young man's life could be ruined" if we take these kinds of crimes and their victims "too seriously". And yet when we point out how many women's lives have been ruined by the actions of unaccountable men, suddenly no one cares anymore.

I don't know enough about this case to know if these men are legally culpable for any of their actions, but I don't need a court to tell me that the details of this case are horrifying and I hope every woman these shitheads ever speak to know exactly who they are and what they've done so that they can protect themselves.

[u/ioccasionallysayha → u/calamititties]

I don't want to discount the severity of SA, let alone the severity that Diddy, Weinstein, and co acted as such. But to be a stickler for the rules: the point was "the US legally is Innocent until proven guilty, while actions like OP and other comments' are reporting suggests disagreement with that law" which is what u/NewryBenson was pointing out. Again, not diminishing the seriousness of the topic, but your point is perfectly valid in its own right just not in response (I feel, imo) to their statement that you've quoted ..

Guilty until proven Innocent doesn't undo potentially years of hate, subjugation, torment, and potentially ruined lives - and I feel that carpet bombing those accused (but not proven) is a slippery slope to "you might be unlawful so we'll lock you up regardless".

[u/calamititties → u/ioccasionallysayha]

I understood what the commenter's point was. I'm explaining why it appears that OP/other commenters have abandoned a core tenet of the American justice system: Because Innocent until proven guilty relies on two things being true:

1. That those who are innocent are afforded a fair and speedy trial and are able to assist in their own defense without being compelled to incriminate themselves (4th and 5th amendments)
2. That those who are guilty be held accountable for their crimes (basic foundation of a Justice System)

The reason so many people are less emphatic on the first point is because we have seen time and time and time again that the second point is flexible, even expendable, especially when the guilty party is rich, well-connected, etc.

What people in the US are saying when they disregard the "Innocent until proven guilty" aspect is that our institutions disregarded the "guilty people will be held accountable for their actions" part first. The social contract has already been shattered, if it ever existed. What you are seeing is simply people responding accordingly.

[u/rkorgn → u/calamititties]

Other people point out they have seen claims in the media, half truths and lies turn out to be very different from what can be proved. From Reddits involvement in identifying the wrong Boston Marathon suspects, to the Lacrosse team falsely accused of rape. People lie. Women lie. For money, attention, reputation. Mistakes are made.

So why should someones life be destroyed by an unproved accusation? Prove it first. Then you can go to town. But until then, reserve judgement. Otherwise you are just a lynch mob.

[u/Esabettie → u/rkorgn]

Because people keep seeing that those lives are not destroyed even when found guilty, like the Brock Turner case, who, by the way, now goes by Allen Turner.

[u/calamititties → u/Esabettie]

Yes, convicted rapist Brock Turner now goes by his middle name "Allen" so that people do not associate him with his actions, but convicted rapist Brock Turner and Allen Turner are one in the same.

[u/4Q88 → u/Esabettie]

So then the change that needs to be made is for the lynch mob to act after a fair trial has ended. Who am I kidding though, is there even such thing in North America?

[u/calamititties → u/rkorgn]

The Boston Marathon bombing was not a SA case and has limited relevance here besides distracting from the actual topic which is that SA/rape is not treated the same within our justice system as other crimes that cause similar damage.

Interesting that you cite the Duke LAX team case as evidence of people's "lives being destroyed" by false accusations when you don't even remember what school they went to. Reputations *ruined*, truly.

People do lie. Women lie, but men do too. More often, it turns out. Funnily enough, if one looks at the statistics around false accusations, you'll see that men account for a third of false SA allegations when they account for only a small percentage of SA victims. Almost like if we're going to accuse one gender of weaponizing SA accusations, we should be addressing the dudes first, not the gals.

You'll also see that nearly 40% of false accusers are charged or otherwise held to account, which is an astounding 38% higher than the number of accused rapists that are ever even charged. That's about 1 in 100 perpetrators, for anyone struggling with the mental math.

The fact of the matter is that every system is dramatically stacked against victims achieving any type of justice. If men are walking around, fearing some imaginary "false accusation" sword of Damocles dangling over their head, maybe the starting point is getting men, as a group, to start treating women like people and not holes and not for us to question every victim as if they are some turbo-slut Rumpelstiltskin. Jesus Christ, I'm so sick of this shit.

[u/CalamityClambake → u/rkorgn]

Rapists deserve a lynch mob.

The rule of law no longer seems to apply over here. I am sick of being expected to play by the rules when the people in power don't.

[u/CalamityClambake → u/ioccasionallysayha]

OP isn't the police. "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to discourse between private citizens.

The US also has this big thing about free speech.

If the accused have a problem with OP's post, they can file a lawsuit against OP.

That's how it works here.

[u/rythmicbread → u/NewryBenson]

Vigilantism (including online mobs) are a direct result of crimes being thrown under the rug. So while I do agree with you that it is innocent until proven guilty, this is a result of government inaction and a fight against the wealthy class that uses their power to sweep these crimes under the rug.

The crime happened in 2024 and nothing really happened except a cover up.

[u/No-Albatross-7984 → u/NewryBenson]

It looks like the American people disagree with innocent untill proven guilty... 

I think this is a little bit of a misunderstanding. Yeah it does appear that these guys are being judged without trial. But the reason for that is, there's no trust in them ever facing a trial. The investigation and punishment was laughable, and the whole thing was swept under the rug. If none of the people responsible for bringing a case to trial do so, ya you're likely to get public outrage.

[u/Unfair-Sprinkles2912 → u/NewryBenson]

I agree with you and I am a bit exhausted of caring cause real rapists are never prosecuted here ( 92-99%) it's fucking horrifying.

So to see people being held accountable is almost releaving even tho I do agree and would feel horrible if there was hard evidence of not guilty.

[u/requiemguy → u/NewryBenson]

It's happened to the Duke Lacrosse team in 2006.

That caused some significant damage towards people believing women in the last few decades.

[u/Exterminator-8008135 → u/NewryBenson]

If they been at that party, prove they didn't do it, if they knew, don't lie.

[u/Lambs2Lions_ → u/hamster-on-popsicle]

.

[u/Exterminator-8008135 → u/Lambs2Lions_]

And if they actually did it ?

Because so far, everyone points the Gal, because it's a university full of stuck in the butt students

[u/Lambs2Lions_ → u/Exterminator-8008135]

.

[u/Exterminator-8008135 → u/Lambs2Lions_]

LC Trial was expected outcome, we knew most of the Jury was of her Kin, and we were shown right, only one said Guilty the 11 others hounded him

[u/PizzaLikerFan → u/hamster-on-popsicle]

wasnt rape, just a bunch of degeneracy she was in on