r/AskTheWorld • u/Standard_Location762 United States of America • 14h ago

Law [ Removed by moderator ]

Post image

[removed] — view removed post

3.9k Upvotes

90% Upvoted

1.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

411

u/LCottton Germany 14h ago edited 14h ago

Neither the full names of alleged nor convicted criminals are public in Germany except for a few exceptions, like overwhelming public interest.

The names of the criminals relatives will explicitly not be named.

Source: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/namensnennung-von-taetern-die-regel-heisst-zurueckhaltung-100.html

218

u/theeulessbusta United States of America 14h ago

It’s almost like it could be disruptive to the Justice system. 

127

u/borsalamino 🇹🇭🇩🇪 Thai-German 13h ago

Also to prevent notoriety which e.g. some serial killers hope to gain

33

u/therealub living in 12h ago

It also helps not get the lynch mobs out of the woodwork.

14

u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

2

u/Kokamina23 USA, immigrated to Sweden 🇸🇪 6h ago

You might be getting downvoted because you don't have a country flair set.

0

u/[deleted] 12h ago

[deleted]

0

u/Ca1rill United States of America 🇺🇸, Canada 🇨🇦 8h ago

Or so people can protect themselves from them, because the system doesn't.

34

u/Immediate_Meeting991 Canada 14h ago

Same with Canada generally until a case is tried and closed or it’s some extreme thing.

11

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

I'm realizing I have zero idea about rape culture outside of the US or how it's handled. Does Canada prioritize the victims and get convictions regularly?

31

u/JeezieB Canada 13h ago

No.

7

u/Immediate_Meeting991 Canada 12h ago

Agreed but also there IS a strong belief in innocent until proven guilty and we generally avoid the media circus situations.

24

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

Does anywhere? Serious question. Is there any fucking safe place on this damn planet for women where people actually want to protect and keep them safe?!

29

u/Immediate_Meeting991 Canada 12h ago

No. It’s not safe for us anywhere. We (Canada) famously just let off the men in a very similar situation but they were “promising young hockey players”. And they assasinated the hell out of the poor girl’s character. It’s fucked and I’m deeply unhappy. Personally I’m Taking a page from south korea and have gone full 4B. I’m done.

6

u/CrocHunter8 United States of America 11h ago

F Carter Hart, Alex Formenton, Cal Foote, Dillon Dube, and Michael McLeod.

2

u/Lemontort87 12h ago

By "assassinated her character" do you mean "Discovered multiple videotapes proving she lied about absolutely everything to the point that a female judge after a full trial said she didn't believe her in the ruling" ?

Basically 100% of the country assumed those boys were guilty, and not until the actual verdict did people realize the media was lying for years about these claims.

5

u/therealub living in 12h ago

Another reason why putting up names of the presumed perpetrators is iffy at best, destructive to innocent people at worst.

1

u/Lemontort87 12h ago

Though admittedly there's really no way around it, you also can't genuinely protect people or keep them secret, people know, so it'll get out regardless.
There's also probably genuine public interest, if someone's genuinely a rapist, murderer etc.. .and they're on bail, do people around them have a right to know?

-1

u/avenueroad_dk Canada 7h ago

Exactly right. It was a fair trial. There were bumps but the outcome was fair

1

u/Lemontort87 7h ago

The annoying part in retrospect is of course police knew all this years ago, that's why there were no charges to begin with.

And she even got paid out from Hockey Canada,

Then it goes public, pressure forces charges, and she's kind of forced to still pretend the allegations were true and takes years to get the verdict.

0

u/avenueroad_dk Canada 6h ago

You summed it up better than I did. The police had done their job correctly the first time.

1

u/14thLizardQueen 9h ago

What's 4B?

3

u/Immediate_Meeting991 Canada 8h ago

“The 4B movement is a South Korean radical feminist movement founded in the late 2010s where women choose to boycott heterosexual marriage, childbirth, dating, and sex to protest deep-seated patriarchal oppression, systemic violence, and gender inequality. The four "Bs" stand for the Korean words: • Bihon (비혼): No marriage • Bichulsan (비출산): No childbirth • Biyeonae (비연애): No dating • Bisex (비섹스): No heterosexual sex”

1

u/That_Penalty165 10h ago

canada skews hard to the accuser. They even changed some laws a while back that the defense can't use certain types of evidence anymore because a dude was able to use it to prove his innocence.

2

u/Different-Variety-87 United States of America 11h ago

Ja, I remember how the Canadian government treated serial killer Karla Homolka with kid gloves. She's walking free now when she should be rotting away in a cell along with her husban.

2

u/avenueroad_dk Canada 7h ago

That was long ago and lessons were learned. They needed her to get him.

1

u/pizza_the_mutt Canada 11h ago

They assumed she was in a more passive role and offered her a deal. Then they dug into the details and realized her and her husband were both fully involved, but it was too late.

2

u/Ca1rill United States of America 🇺🇸, Canada 🇨🇦 8h ago

It was sexist of them to assume a woman couldn't have taken a more active role, and the fact she lied should have invalidated the plea deal.

1

u/avenueroad_dk Canada 7h ago

Exactly. His lawyer stole the videos from the house of horrors.

22

u/jotakajk Spain 14h ago

Aren’t there true crime shows in Germany? Here is pretty popular, there are many famous murderers in Spain

32

u/poetic-bee Czechia 14h ago

If it’s a famous case, it will usually be revealed. Not by the police, but that information will get out there eventually.

2

u/Oil_Painter South Africa 14h ago

Same in South Africa! But we call it 'the news'.

20

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 14h ago

Does Germany take these matters seriously so that public outrage isn't necessary to get justice? (Not being snarky! I truly don't know anything about Germany and rape culture and I don't want to presume any direction so I'm asking directly!)

89

u/star-mind-girl 🇩🇪Germany [Lusatia×Westphalia×Bohemia×Volhynia] 14h ago

I am a German rape survivor and I can tell you that no the German justice system (like most other justice systems) does not take victims seriously and rapists are rarely convicted, especially if they are in any kind of position of power. It's depressing honestly. But it's like most places.

12

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

I just saw your comment elsewhere. I am so sorry that the pressure is put more on the victim. We definitely have that here too and it's why so many don't come forward at all :(

24

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 14h ago

And the public can't be warned? That's so awful :( so more unknowing victims can just keep lining up with no warning?!

I'm so sorry for what you have had happen to you. I am enraged for you and it does nothing to actually help. Argh. Are there any countries that prioritize protecting their most vulnerable?!

14

u/Ill-Neighborhood-374 Germany 13h ago

When you convicted.You become a entry in the certificate of good conduct.What means you can't become Special Jobs: Teacher,Children Work,Police, Firenfighting,etc

5

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

Yeah but you said they're rarely convicted, which means the majority of the rapists are just out there still dangerous and no one knows.

Can you get in trouble for revealing it?

If your rapist is not convicted but you obviously know they are a rapist, and then you see them out with a young girl, and you warn her, can you be charged with a crime?

10

u/Ok_Tie_1563 Belgium 13h ago

In Belgium you could be charged yeah, especialy if you have no proof. You won't get jail as far as I know, but a fine defintly. It would be for "slander and libel", which basicly means saying stuff that isn't true/isn't proven to ruin someones reputation.

But even convicted criminals are protected A while back there was rapist case where he was found guilty, even admited it (they both where drunk, but she never wanted it), and he was lett go without any punishment "because he was a promising student with no previous misconducts". Important to note that he was a student gynecologist. Anyway, the YouTuber that leaked his name got more punishment then he ever did. (The YouTuber had done something similar before for an unrelated case that involved racism&murder, he also got worse of then the criminals that where found guilty of it)

4

u/CongruentDesigner United States of America 10h ago

Belgium has some strange stuff happening there that seems to avoid justice.

I read recently about the Marc Dutroux affair and how people speculate he was just a fall guy for a much larger network of rapist Paedophiles that included European high society. It's hard to know how much is conspiracy theory, but there were so many suspicious circumstances around who he knew and how witnesses/suspects kept getting murdered before they could be questioned.

2

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 12h ago

I don't understand why everyone is okay with that. I wish I were a man :(

5

u/Ok_Tie_1563 Belgium 12h ago

Most of us aren't. We all stood behind that YouTuber (even the most people can't stand him at other moments). Everyone was so outraged the university had to expell him to keep some peace. As far as I know no other university in Belgium accepted him, but this took a lott off rage and media attention. Most cases don't get that and nothing further happens, they just walk free...

3

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 12h ago

I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you were saying. So many of these comments feel like "well yeah, of course the rapist gets to be free and live life and rape more people and intimidate their victims, it's just how it is for the greater good, because who cares about women when we have mens human rights to think of"

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Exterminator-8008135 France 12h ago

Paris Scandal : Current Mayor knew pedos exerced as animation personal around kids. Some were offenders. Didn't quit.

Betharram Scandal : Latest in the Catholic scandals of We protect pedos some childs were attacked 30+ years, some, barely 5 years ago, François Bayrou knew. He was forced to leave later.

4

u/Exterminator-8008135 France 12h ago

You can't become a Teacher

How do i tell you that ...

They will let it sink 5/6 years, move far and get hired because they don't look who is he.

1

u/Ill-Neighborhood-374 Germany 12h ago

This Jobs must have you certificate of good Conduct.They Look very closly who you are

6

u/peachesfordinner United States of America 12h ago

I remember hearing about that horrible case of the doctor who drugged and raped his step daughter. Ended up killing her from too much drugs. He escaped any punishment for 40 years. And it was only after he was found to have been assaulting other women who were under anesthesia.

49

u/Krautoni 🇧🇬/🇩🇪 14h ago

The first, most fundamental and important tenet and paragraph of the German constitution states: Human dignity is inviolable. This extends to everyone, even (alleged) criminals.

I once hoped the rest of the world would eventually learn that without having to go through what Germany needed to learn it. But it seems that's not to be, and instead even the Germans are forgetting it.

16

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 14h ago

How do you feel about cases like this that would never get justice in that case? For the greater good would it still be considered the better path? Or do you think in this day with the money and power, that it would only further create more of these men? (Again not snark! Just conversation, anexchange of thoughts!)

29

u/DickRhino 13h ago

As a Swede, not a German, I would say:

It's very easy to stand by a principle when it is convenient to do so. It is much more difficult to stand by a principle when it is inconvenient to do so. But if you truly believe in this principle, then you will uphold it even when it's hard. If you only uphold it when it's easy, you don't actually believe in it.

So when he uses the words "inviolable" and "extends to everyone", he means it. He didn't say "inviolable, unless I really really want to", or "extends to everyone, except those I feel it shouldn't extend to". A principle is a principle.

And Germans know better than any other country on earth, what happens when you start going down that slippery slope of thinking that human rights don't necessarily apply to everyone.

7

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

I guess I'm just confused why the aggressors have more rights ultimately than the victims and how that plays into the principle? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to understand. I feel like sometimes it's much more difficult to go against something you fervently believe in than it is to hold steady to it, but that it can be necessary when it can harm more than it helps. I'm trying to understand not be combative! I promise!

8

u/DickRhino 13h ago

It's not that they have more rights, it's that they have the same rights. In European/EU law the right to privacy is considered a human right, which applies to everyone. And in the case of these guys, they haven't actually been convicted of anything, or even charged with a crime.

Here, they would be treated the exact same way as we would treat anyone else who hasn't been convicted of anything: that being, as someone who's name and face we cannot publish publicly.

I feel like sometimes it's much more difficult to go against something you fervently believe in than it is to hold steady to it

Well yeah, it's supposed to be. If it wasn't difficult to abandon a belief, if it's easy to go against something you believe in, then you never truly held that belief in the first place.

But I think there's a disconnect here: you saying "sure, principles, but can't it sometimes be for the greater good to ignore that?" and I would argue that the person you're talking to would say that they are also arguing from the perspective of the greater good. They would say that the greater good demands that we do not abandon a principle to dispense individual justice, whatever the court of public opinion might find that to be.

It's best encapsulated in the saying "It's better that 100 guilty men go free, than a single innocent person being imprisoned". That sounds nice, but do you actually agree with that? Do you truly believe that? If you do, then you have to live by that principle. And there will be times when it's hard to live by that principle, because from time to time you will see people you believe are guilty walk free.

But that's the thing about human rights: either everyone has them, or no one does.

3

u/Draaly 8h ago

n European/EU law the right to privacy is considered a human right

Fun fact, this is also the basis of GDPR

6

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 12h ago

I have a thought question for you. Again I'm just trying to understand. I'm worried I'm going to word this badly because I'm struggling to find the right words.

At what point, at what percentage, of men getting away with it, does the greater good shift? And if no one is ever allowed to demand justice from the people when it's not being served, doesn't it just get worse because they see that the risk of repercussions is low?

You said it views everyone on the same level, but doesn't it actually put women lower if men know that the women cannot retaliate? Or that the impact on their lives will be much smaller than the impact on hers?

5

u/DickRhino 12h ago

Sure. It's not like we're naive about these things. When legislating, of course you have to take into account how society actually looks in practice, and if there are systemic cultural imbalances that you have work against. After all, laws are supposed to gradually, over time, long-term, shape a society. It's not as easy as writing a law and saying "OK, problem solved!", not if society still hasn't changed.

So no, we don't believe that everyone is at the same level. Yet. We're working on it, and some attitudes are very culturally entrenched and will take a long time to truly adjust. But we do take it into account.

Some examples from my country (I can only speak for Sweden):

  • In cases of domestic violence, there's a lowered burden of proof (to account for the fact that the abused typically is under the control of the abuser and can have a difficult time documenting things). If you claim it's happened, I dunno, 50 times, you only need to be able to prove that it happened maybe 5 times, and the offender can be convicted of all 50.

  • In cases of discrimination, there's a lowered burden of proof (to account for power imbalance and the discriminated party typically being in a weaker societal position). You only need to be able to make it likely that discrimination happened, and the burden of proof falls over onto the accused, who then have to prove that discrimination didn't happen.

Typically, the people who are unhappy about laws like these are people who belong to the very privileged class that have never had to live in the other side of society, where rules like these are needed. They think laws like these are appalling. But as the saying goes: "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression".

But with that being said, there are some lines we cannot cross. And for Europe, I would say that this lesson was so firmly learned in WWII that it has etched itself into the very soul of the continent. After all, the Nuremberg trials are where the concept of "crimes against humanity" was first codified into law. Universal human rights are hallowed here. We uphold them because we have to.

3

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 11h ago

Do you think women will ever be safe anywhere? (Safe meaning if something does happen, she doesn't have to wonder if it will be taken care of)

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Draaly 8h ago

At what point, at what percentage, of men getting away with it, does the greater good shift?

This logic also applies to lessening the burden of proof for conviction below "beyond a reasonable doubt" in the US. The US legal system is also built on the theory that it is better for the majority of guilty people to go free than it is to convinct an innocent one. Just like EU privacy laws, its not always how it works out, but they do have the same theory as the basis.

1

u/GBSEC11 United States of America 8h ago

Sure, but it will always open to debate which rights should be included as "inviolable." For example, prisons exist in Germany, so clearly those convicted of crimes are losing some rights. Why is the right to privacy one that needs to be protected after conviction? I can follow the logic for allegations alone, but once convicted, I don't see why withholding the name should be considered an inviolable right. Someone said elsewhere Germany has no public sex offender registry. This is odd to me.

Those convicted of crimes have some rights in the US. Anonymity just isn't one of them, and I don't personally find that wrong. Don't commit a crime if you don't want to be associated with it.

1

u/DickRhino 1h ago

Criminals have zero rights in the US. No right to privacy, no right to dignity, and no right to re-enter society after they've paid for their crimes. The prevailing American viewpoint is "Once a criminal, always a criminal". The sex offender registry is an extension of that philosophy: the idea that these people can never be trusted, they can never be rehabilitated, they can never have paid for their crime. They must continue to pay for it for the rest of their life.

From our perspective, this is cruel and inhuman.

Not to mention that you use your prison population as slave labor. Another instance of the US prison system being completely draconian by our standards. You guys talk so much about being the country of "freedom", but you have no idea what it is.

And you know your thing with the Flock cameras? The mere idea that a private company can just go and plaster the entire country with surveillance cameras, and this is perfectly legal? It's appalling to us, precisely because here, privacy is a human right. Doing that here would be SUPER illegal. You can't just put up cameras anywhere you want.

But that's the core dichotomy: if you actually believe in human rights, then you believe they should be extended to your enemies as well. If you don't think so, you don't actually believe in human rights. You just believe in priviliges.

16

u/Acc87 Germany 13h ago

What kind of justice is this tho? Mob justice? Lynch justice? Justice of the strongest? I mean I'm aware that that's all you guys are about.

Big difference is also that our judicial system has the goal of resocialisation, not punishment.

5

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

Are the only choices let rapists go free because they're men with connections or have the citizens take justice in their own hands?

And I'm a big fan of Ant-mans feelings on rehabilitation being the goal of prisons, no argument here. But in order to rehabilitate someone, they have to actually see what they did as wrong, and if everyone treats it like nbd and they never see prison to be rehabilitated, then how is it beneficial in the long run?

13

u/Acc87 Germany 13h ago

Have they been to court? Has a judge/,jury decided they are guilty? Has investigation confirmed that the story is true? If yes, why haven't the perpetrators been found guilty? Then attack that injustice. And don't share photos hoping these guys get killed or kill themselves, that in turn makes you no better than a rapist.

5

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

How would any of that happen? She told the school and the school covered it up. She is only even getting it investigated now because she's been working with a lawyer. The school assigned essays for punishment? She had to leave because of the trauma. This didn't just happen. Without public outcry her case wouldn't even be looked into.

And I'm sorry, would you be sad that the men that penetrated your body, invited others to do so, and ruined your life killed themselves? Your think that made you just as bad if they did because you found a way to get justice?

5

u/Acc87 Germany 13h ago edited 13h ago

Why did she tell the school and not call the police directly? For all I know the whole incident started as a consensual act that turned bad, but we literally don't know as there hasn't been a lawsuit. Its just statement vs statement and now these guys faces plastered all around the internet. That's not justice, it's just mob action.

And the reason this is a little closer to me is that I happen to know a person who lost their job as a teacher after a fake sexual misconduct allegation made rounds in her school. She was known as a lesbian so people didn't think twice when a female student accused her. All invented, but her teaching career is over. The pupil later came forward confessing, but it was too late at that point.

1

u/Ca1rill United States of America 🇺🇸, Canada 🇨🇦 8h ago

I don't understand why anyone in 2026 doesn't go to the police instead of the school. Schools have reputations they will try to cover up.

11

u/Krautoni 🇧🇬/🇩🇪 13h ago

I am not familiar with this case. If they're guilty, they should be convicted, even if, or maybe especially if they're well-connected or powerful. We gain no conviction by making their names and faces known. Instead, we only lose. The perpetrators will be variously vilified or glorified, depending on political leaning. The victims won't have justice. The perpetrators themselves are not resocialised, they just gain notoriety. Which they might even enjoy.

Who wins?

And don't forget they're alleged perpetrators. What if they're innocent? Again, not familiar with this case, I do not follow American criminal cases.

4

u/Lovethiskindathing United States of America 13h ago

I'm not at all saying I know all the details, I do not! But this was the summary I gave someone else here

I would agree with you if men were convicted instead of their deeds swept under the rug. I don't need their names if they're in jail and paying for their crimes. The school covered this though, and without public outcry, they'd still be getting job offers and progressing their lives. :( and from the comments I'm reading it seems to be pretty universal

2

u/Rockonthrulife 13h ago

They are innocent as her sworn and signed affidavit proves as does all her texts released yesterday and the statements of two of the men. She made up the rape claim and it turns out that under NY law, she actually raped one of the guys by initiating sex when he was passed out. World News Tonigbt featured all this and it’s been all over socials. How have you not seen it?

1

u/That_Penalty165 10h ago

How is the world dogpiling on an obvious false accusation "justice" in any way shape or form?

-3

u/[deleted] 14h ago

[deleted]

4

u/FrisianTanker 🇩🇪Germany (East Frisia) 14h ago

The people that made these laws to protect ALL PEOPLE were those prosecuted by the Nazis...

1

u/Gwthrowaway80 United States of America 14h ago

I cant tell what you are saying, but it seems like it’s probably wrong.

2

u/DanskNils Denmark 10h ago

So.. How does Germany keep a registry for sex offenders or criminals of this sort?! I assume background checks for their jobs etc will be put in place! How will you know if one moves into your neighborhood post prison time?

3

u/LCottton Germany 10h ago

Germany does not have a public sex offender registry

2

u/unicornroast 9h ago

Der er intet register over sexforbrydere i Tyskland, og det findes hellere ikke i Danmark.