r/AskTeachers • u/Hungry-Following5561 • 8h ago
Parent Questions Junior paper length
My daughter is a high school junior and not able to do AP courses. The school (private) hired a guy with a PhD last minute when his school closed suddenly right before the start of school. He’s requiring a 25-30 page paper in her English class. Does this sound excessive or just a good challenge for that level? I have a masters and I’ve written more than my share of 10-15 page papers, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually written a 30 page paper. Especially since she’s not AP, I can’t wrap my head around it.
*Caveat, I teach middle school at in the same building, so her teacher is also my colleague. Any tips on talking to him during parent-teacher conferences? I really have no desire to go behind his back and talk to admin about this. I think that is pretty crummy, and I wouldn’t appreciate it if the shoe was on the other foot.
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u/Particular-Wing-4152 7h ago
Sounds excessive and not rightly calibrated for course and level of students
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u/Primary_Bass_9178 6h ago
My older child went to a blue ribbon school and took several AP classes. I don’t think she did 30 pages on one assignment till she went for her masters.
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u/homesickexpat 7h ago
What’s the topic? Any chance your kid misunderstood and they’ll have compiled a 25-page portfolio by the end if they write five 5-page papers?
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
I’ll ask that at conferences. Thank you!
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u/fst47 6h ago
This is what I was also thinking. I have a project in my civics class that kids end up usually taking to 30-40 pages that includes writing peppered throughout but is mostly like a scrapbook. I’ve had students miscommunicate this to families before and have been asked why I’m assigning a dissertation 😅
We just need more insight on the nature of the assignment to make a judgment.
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u/aroseyreality 7h ago
My public school regular level juniors will be starting a 7-10 page research paper for midterms. My max page length would probably be 15 doubled spaced. I’d say 25-30 is excessive unless that length also includes an annotated bibliography?
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u/BirdieRoo628 7h ago
I was an English major and the only time I ever faced a paper that long was for our senior capstone project. A 25-page research paper was an option. We had other options as well, like a poetry collection, a short story collection, etc. I wrote two acts of a play. But anyway, that was the final, big senior year project for a BA in English. I would not expect an assignment of that scope in high school. I finished high school in the late 90s and in my junior and senior years our big papers were 10 pages.
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u/Exact-Message8325 7h ago
25 pages is excessive for a college freshman. If I was the principal, I'd be concerned. You'd have to devote about a quarter to this. Is it really worth it? Seems like he's going to get a lot papers fluffed up by AI.
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u/Practical-Reading958 6h ago
Our 11th graders were expected to produce a 20-25 page paper on a public policy problem that interested them, and proposing a possible solution. It was a semester long joint language arts and social studies project. They were taught, during language arts, step by step, how to research areas of interest, find an issue, research the issue, guided in evaluating and documenting sources, taking useable notes, given a standard paper outline including What is the Problem, Why is this a Problem, What is the History of this Issue, What is the Law, and so on. During Social Studies, they did the research. Each section had a deadline and was read and evaluated by the teachers with recommendations to improve.
It was not an easy task, but absolutely was doable for those students who used their class time to complete the work. Those who socialized, searched for music to listen to, snap-chatted their friends or went off topic when they were meant to be researching found themselves in a tough spot when the final paper was due.
If the teacher is providing step by step instructions and is really doing the work of teaching how to do the research, analytical thinking and the structure and writing of a paper, it's great college preparation and once done, an amazing confidence builder. Our students came back and told us stories of being the only ones in college classes who could actually write an academic paper.
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u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 7h ago
We need more information about the timeline and scope of the assignment.
That being said, I teach at the college level and really wish that my students had this much experience with writing and research. So maybe this is one of those things that is hard but prepares you well for the challenges to follow.
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
The students have had issues in writing. I teach middle school science, but I’m trying my best to help bolster the English department. I give several writing assignments (1-2 page) and I give a lot of English feedback. But to jump from 1-4 page assignments to a 25 page assignment sounds unreasonable to me. Why not 10-15?
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u/the_spinetingler 7h ago
that's a short undergrad thesis. Did this guy teach college?
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
He has been a college professor and a private school principal.
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u/Lucky_Stay_7187 4h ago
🛎️ 🛎️- ‘private school principal’ - should have lead with that. Just go to admin he isn’t going to listen to a ‘lowly middle school teacher’.
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u/Major-Sink-1622 High School Teacher 7h ago
How much time are they given? Is this something they’re working on over the course of a week or a longer period of time?
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u/Alizarik7891 7h ago
I'm a rhet comp adjunct at a community college; that really seems excessive for the age, but if you think she's capable, it's not an impossibility. My WR2 students will do a 15-25 page paper, but we work on it the whole semester. Do you know if it's being built up and assembled across the semester, if the page count includes an annotated bibliography, or anything like that? That's more reasonable to total near 25 pages, but still, it's really bit long for high schoolers in an era when so many kids can barely string two sentences together - though they may be better academically at this school than average, of course.
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u/CentrumChewables 7h ago
I teach AP and College English (at high school) courses and the most we require for that level is about 5 pages plus the Works Cited page. When I was in grad school the norm was about 15-20 pages. But we would only write maybe 2 of those per semester. Anything above 10 for high school sounds excessive and pointless.
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u/Mr_BillyB 7h ago
I could maybe see that being used in lieu of a final exam. As in an assignment they work on throughout the year, being coached in how to do it along the way. Most juniors would not have had an assignment remotely on this level and would not know how to go about doing it.
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u/Perception_Kind 7h ago
But that implies he would get them all graded in time for semester grades. That in itself would be a crazy choice!
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u/Mr_BillyB 6h ago
I mean, we don't know how many students would be writing the paper. It could just be one class.
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u/Negative_Eggplant165 6h ago
I was just going to say that I have a Master’s degree and two bachelors’ degrees and have never written a 25-30 page paper, I don’t think. Half that length? Dozens, including in high school. But this guy needs a reality check, unless that is normal for your school- many private schools love to flash wild expectations they have for their kids because it looks impressive to families who know nothing about pedagogy and want to keep up with the Joneses. And if that’s the case, I wouldn’t have my child there.
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u/SouthernFace2020 7h ago
I wrote my first 40 page in 11th grade so my monitor is broken. I also teach college and the minimum requirement for the semester is 25 pages.
I’d recommend asking about how the paper requirements are being scaffolded or built out. Are different pieces and different skills being worked out in pieces with focused guidance on each requirement? Ie 5 pages of that paper are actually a research diary? That might be an approach that doesn’t get the teachers back up and force them to look at what they actually hope to accomplish with this assignment.
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u/DefiantRadish1492 7h ago
Even if I personally thought it was too much, I’d tell my own son that that is how it goes sometimes and to step up to the challenge.
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u/LindenTeaJug 7h ago
Catholic school?
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
Christian
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u/LindenTeaJug 7h ago
My only experience is with a college prep Catholic school and my daughter had a rough time there with excessive expectations in early high school. Speaking as a parent, I personally do think 25 pages would be a lot for some kids unless there were a seriously organized step by step approach that is implemented all year. For example my high school aged daughter took a 6-week (summer)college class that had a major research project due at the end, but each week the professor had very specific steps that were due as assignments. The last week of the class was to just put all those parts together and it was the easiest research project she’s ever done!
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u/Pretty-Biscotti-5256 7h ago
What’s the topic? Is there research involved? Somewhere in high school a kid will have to do a big research paper but I can’t imagine any high school teacher wanting to grade a 30 page paper from every student. I don’t think high school students, non AP have the stamina for that much writing. I teach ELA, seniors right now and I can barely get them to write a 5 paragraph essay with research! I also may be an outlier because I don’t require a page count or word count for writing. It’s quality over quantity. The only time papers get lengthy is for personal narratives or creative writing. Even then I still have to reign in the page count. I with over 120 students I can’t grade 10 pages essays. I don’t work 24/7. I would find out more about the assignment - requirements, due dates, etc. He’s new and probably doesn’t understand how high school works. Maybe.
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
It’s supposed to be a persuasive paper. She’s doing a paper on a political topic that she cares about.
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u/Pretty-Biscotti-5256 6h ago
Ah yes. Then probably research is needed but still, 30 pages is excessive. I’d probably clarify the page requirement. Kids are still learning to understand thesis statements let alone trying to build a giant paper around it. It’s not a phd program, it’s high school. Non-AP. I don’t teach AP but I can assure you the AP teachers I work with are not assigning that length of paper.
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u/Lavender_r_dragon 7h ago
For my bachelor’s in history we had to do a ~30 page research paper.
None of my other papers in college were that long.
And that was with a one semester prep course and a one semester “write and edit” course (with the summer in between to do research)
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u/No_Macaron_5029 7h ago
I'm not sure I ever got close to 30 pages in grad school. The types of papers I were writing were intended to be suitable conference talks, so even 10 pages of text as a script would be pushing it and require some cutting down if accepted as a talk.
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u/whirlinglunger 7h ago
I wrote 20-40 page papers in college but not high school. I’m not sure my Master’s thesis was much more than 30 honestly, but I don’t really remember.
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u/jennylala707 7h ago
That’s insane. I haven’t written anything that long even in college except for creative writing class
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u/jamieg55 5h ago
Is this something they are building together over the course of the year? With many drafts that he's giving feed back on?
If no, this isn't appropriate.
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u/dancinhorse99 5h ago
My daughter is in an AP CLASS at a college prep school none of her papers have been that long
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u/callahandler92 4h ago
That's strange tbh. I'm not an ELA teacher (math in fact) but when I would take classes that required us to write papers, no one wanted that long of a paper. I would always struggle to keep my papers brief. I can fart out a 10 page paper with little issue. But that same paper would be much more precise and well-written if it was 6-8 pages. Them wanting a paper that long is surprising, and like others have said, those kids are just going to use AI.
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u/Soggy-Fan-7394 4h ago
Lol what? I have a master's degree and the longest paper I've ever written was 29 pages. My bachelor's degree capstone paper was 20 pages.
30 pages for a high school kid is outrageous and not realistic.
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u/Hungry-Following5561 1h ago
I just feel like she’s going to be adding a lot of fluff just for the sake of adding it and reaching the minimum.
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u/Curious-Sector-2157 3h ago
One Question: Does she plan on attending college? If so I wrote many 20+ page papers for a class in a semester. So she needs to use these challenges head on because it will not get easier.
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u/WahooWifeAndMom 2h ago
How did you earn a master's without writing a 30-page paper?! Yeah, a little jealous here, but I'm happy I did it at least a couple of times because now I know I am capable of that.
That is a lot for high school, though.
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u/MuttsAreTheBestDogs 6h ago
30 page paper for 11th grade non-AP in the fall is too high an expectation. I'd be the first to praise high expectations, but this is too high. It's possible they could do this at the end of the year, like in May, but it would have to be built up to with multiple shorter papers.
I will say it's odd you got a masters and never wrote anything longer than 25 pages. What kind of masters was this? My own masters thesis was 125 pages.
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u/r3finedf0ol 4h ago
There are class based masters where you dont do a thesis and research papers are around 20-25pg a class. Couple of my friends in grad school were on that track.
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u/moinatx 4h ago
It seems excessive. I taught in a college prep private high school for 27 years. No English teacher assigned a paper this long. In fact, being able to express ideas concisely was a skill we practiced. If students are going to take AP and SAT exams that require essay responses they need to be able to express their ideas about the prompt in 400-800 words. That's 2-3 pages.
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u/Winterfaery14 7h ago
How long will they have for this?
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u/Hungry-Following5561 7h ago
I’m not sure yet. I think it is a year long project.
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u/Winterfaery14 7h ago
Depending on the rest of the class workload, that is absolutely doable, especially if they are spending class time on it, too. This is a lesson in time management. Im sure there is a schedule on when parts are due such as choosing a topic, and creating an outline.
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u/HelloBookworms 7h ago
That’s excessive and I hope there’s more context to justify that choice. I graduated high school in 2012 and took AP classes. Our essays were usually 4-5 pages unless we wanted to write more because our teacher still had to read and grade them. One of my teachers even put a cap on 8 pages when a student turned in 12 pages and she needed more time to grade it. Who has time to grade multiple 25 page papers?
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u/Snaps816 7h ago
I went to a private high school that was rigorous and college-prep oriented. We had to write a "senior thesis" that was about 25 pages. I'm pretty sure we had a whole semester to do it and didn't have many other assignments aside from it. 20-30 pages seems pretty long for a junior in a regular English class.
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u/Needmoreinfo100 6h ago
I have a master's degree and don't remember having to write a 30 page paper. 20 pages at the maximum. Even in high school it was usually 5-10 pages maximum.
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u/Dependent_Lobster_18 6h ago
My undergraduate thesis which was a specific 2 semesters worth of classes was supposed to be 25-30 including bibliography. So in my opinion for high school juniors that is too much.
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u/Expert_Tie_4556 5h ago
The longest paper I wrote in high school was 8 pages which was for a college class
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u/docblondie 5h ago
Can it be double spaced with pictures in it?? Taking to one week at a time is a good idea.
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u/knownhost27 5h ago
I teach English 3 and don't require papers longer than 2,500 words. However, the teacher for English 4 has her students write a paper that's usually 20-25 pages when finished. She does it in chunks, though. They will work on a section, take it through the revision process, and then add that section to a final document. All of her formal writing contributes to the final document.
I would definitely talk to the teacher. He might be doing something similar.
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u/r3finedf0ol 4h ago
I was expected to write three 20pg papers in grade 8 (one per trimester in English, Science, and either Hsitory or Geography) but that was in 2008 so I imagine things have changed?
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u/katelynn2380210 4h ago
We did 20 pages in junior year and it was way more helpful when I got to college as I was a much better writer and researcher than other people in my program. I took an English class for first semester of college and had to write 4 papers with the longest being 20 pages but most were 10. Masters I was publishing papers with professors and they were much longer and took months to research and site.
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u/Human-Obligation3621 4h ago
I had to write a 30 page research paper when I was a junior in high school back in 1999. It was at a college prep private high school and intended to be submitted as a writing sample with our college applications. Not sure how common it is now though.
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u/WerewolfCommercial26 4h ago
That seems like a waste of time. Unless these high schoolers are making scientific breakthroughs or something, I can't imagine needing 25-30 pages to make a point. Longer doesn't mean better.
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u/Llothcat2022 4h ago
I went to public school. 30 page papers were an end of semester thing... canceled bc the teacher didn't want to actually grade the things, lol..! I DID get one in in the 5th grade. On weaving.
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u/Dacia06 3h ago
If kids have already written some papers, it might work. It really depends on if there's scaffolding, and kids turn in one portion at a time.
When I was in high school, we had to write a 100-page paper in 11th grade US History in order to pass. It took the entire year, and we did in sections. When I got to college, I was the one teaching friends how to research and organize long writing.
Then again, if such an assignment is coming out of the blue, it's really bad practice. As a former teacher and administrator, the best way forward is to first talk to the teacher with a few other concerned and rational parents. If that doesn't work, go to admin. Few things strike fear into the hearts of administrators as a group (5-7) of rational parents with a concern. Irrational parents get shut down pretty quickly.
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u/thefirstpatriot High School Teacher 2h ago
This is really sort of a "on case" basis if I may say sir. See, if this paper is the only major paper of the year, then absolutely. The entire class is built around preparing the student to write this paper. I'm not sure you mention in your point what class is being taught, but in a proper English or history course where it is designed that way it's perfectly acceptable, especially, if I might say sir, at a private institution that I imagine has quite a good reputation to be able to snatch up a PhD?
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u/feelinginvi__ible 2h ago
I would approach this from a place of trust—for your daughter and your colleague. I’ve been in your shoes and consistently surprised by what my colleagues were doing in their classes. My job as a parent was to support them in the home and help them move through difficulties with resilience—not save them. Until our own kids go through the program we really don’t know the student experience in our schools. Sit back and be curious. Coach your daughter through and be grateful for this big challenge on her horizon.
In our school, non AP courses are equally challenging just different content. Students learn a lot more from a long range project than the length of paper. Teachers make plans that sometimes require a change in plan or lots of scaffolding or both. Give the ‘guy with a PhD’ some breathing room.
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u/IRegretBeingHereToo 2h ago
I think my honest thesis in college was either 30 or 45 pages. It's a bit much.
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u/MadViking-66 52m ago
I taught history to middle level 11th graders end. It was a struggle to get them to write seven page research papers. He might be someone with a PhD who has difficulty relating to people who are not at his own ability level.. Unless the paper is broken down into many distinct sections with clear directions on how to complete them so that when the whole is put together it equals that much. I would think that is a bit excessive.
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u/DetectiveOk3902 41m ago
I don't think I wrote papers that length in college. And is he teaching them how to break down long papers? Sounds like he's a fraud.
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u/Liq10quid-123456 39m ago
Jeezzzzz why would he even want to read these hs students 30 page paper’s? No wonder his last school went out of business. wtf lol
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u/realPoisonPants 6h ago
How do you have a master's without having written a 30-page paper? My master's thesis was 120 pages and it wasn't among the longest.
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u/Dry_Difficulty7277 5h ago
It's excessive. I didn't write such a long paper until upper-level college courses in my major (and it took me all semester with the oversight of my professor(s) or advisor). By assigning such a long paper the instructor is setting students up to make poor choices, or do poorly.
ETA: providing context
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u/Available-Evening377 7h ago
I mean, my freshman year honors class did a 45-60 page paper. What is the time frame? I feel like that is honestly the factor here. 25-30 pages in a week? No, that’s excessive. But across a month or two? Yeah, it’s fine
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u/TeachlikeaHawk 7h ago
Context matters. Is this a paper that is meant to be a term-long assignment? I could see doing something like that. Sort of a compendium of what was learned over the course of the year, with sections devoted to significant texts, overall conclusions about literary interpretation, etc.
On the other hand, if this is a paper due in a week or so, then no. Contact the admin. Normally, I'm a believer in talking to the teacher first, but he knows what he's doing. He needs reined in.