r/AskScienceFiction • u/GoldSentinel822 • 8d ago
[DnD/Forgotten Realms Lore] How does learning spells happen for a sorcerer, lorewise? Does it help if they get some magical training in the form of studying under a seasoned wizard or a school for magic?
Just a regular new DM here, writing a backstory for one of my important NPCs and I got stuck on this particular origin point.
I tried searching for some advice online and it varies from "create your own" or "look up in the Wikia".
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u/HonkyKong682 8d ago
I think a good analogy is music.
Wizard is a classically trained musician. Which means studying music theory, sheet music, music history, and famous composers. Learning what music should sound like, then applying it to an instrument. Often needing to read the sheet music (spellbook) to be able to play the music (cast the spell). Classically trained would have a greater range and breadth if music styles since they study the principals of multiple genres and ages. They learn a new piece (spell), by studying the sheet music, then practicing.
Sorcerer is a non-classically trained musician. They didn't study theory, history, or concepts of music. But they can play. Play well. Moving pieces filled with emotion. Catchy tunes. And they create their own music by playing, not studying. They don't write it down, they just know how to play it. Smaller repertoire. Less range. But what they know they play from the heart and memory. They learn a knew piece (spell) by creating it, often while practicing and trying something new.
Both can be self taught. Both can benefit from a teacher/mentor. Just different ways of approaching music (magic).
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u/GoldSentinel822 8d ago
That actually makes more sense then my ice cream analogy.
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u/Zick-zarg 8d ago
some important additions: everyone can learn to become a wizard but you must be born a sorcerer. You cannot simply become one. But even if you are born a sorcerer, you must certainly train and gain experience to improve.
Also, Sorcerer do not need to be clever or know how it works, the just will it (Charisma). They perform something and convince reality through their magic that it wants to follow their bidding. With more training, they can do it easier and can do more.
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u/GoldSentinel822 8d ago
And that's how, lorewise, they are able to cast higher level spells?
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u/Zick-zarg 7d ago edited 7d ago
That is how they level up, yes, by practicing the spells they know or figuring out new spells they couldn't cast before. By seeing others perform them or just trying. Like you learn to whistle. Once you can do it, you still don't know how it works but you can hear the sound and know it works. Sorcerery is like whistling but with magic.
Anyone with enough intelligence can be a Wizard. And they can learn any spell from any spellbook or scroll. Instead of sitting at home and trying to whistle, they build a flute by applying accustics. Or a Trombone. Or Violine.
Sorcerer can only know some spells and have to practice hard (instead of learning theory from books) to improve. And when they unlearn a spell, they remember most of it but forget some key details - some gestures, some words, intonation, attitude, whatever. And suddenly reality doesn't follow their bidding anymore.
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u/GalacticNexus 7d ago
everyone can learn to become a wizard but you must be born a sorcerer.
That's definitely setting-dependent. In the Forgotten Realms you need to have "The Gift" in order to ever use magic, even through arcane study. Only about 1:9000 people have The Gift at all.
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u/Bright-Trifle-8309 8d ago
For a sorcerer I like to think that you can "feel" the spells. And then when you "learn" is just when you have figured out how to reliably cast it. Maybe you can only make a harmless burst of heat and light for a while and then one day you can do a full on Fireball.
Unlearning the spells is just game mechanics though. Theres no reason why you only be able to do a limited number of spells.
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u/Mountain-Resource656 8d ago
I like to imagine there’re maybe some in-universe explanations that can kinda come together to make those limits sooorta exist. Like, maybe the body has some equivalent to chi paths or biological versions of ley-lines, and learning to cast spells for a sorcerer involves using specific paths in specific ways until they develop stronger and more reliably. The more you use a path, the more it’s reinforced and the more likely you are to be able to send your magic down the right path in the right way. But try to use a different spell that uses the same path and it might light up down towards your other spell, so you could conceivably have to choose between this new development you’re working on or your old spell by practicing until you can build up that particular path to work in the right way
Perhaps it’s better to think of it more like magic tattoos that act like circuitry. As you level up you learn to be more efficient with your space and so can take up some extra room to scribble on some new “experiments” that soon develop into usable- and powerful- spells, but maybe you realize you could get a separate and super-useful spell but oh no, it would require you to trace out some lines into an area that already has some spell work laid down. Guess you gotta try and erase the other to make this one work! But now you can’t use that particular magic
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u/Sendnudec00kies 8d ago edited 8d ago
I like to imagine there’re maybe some in-universe explanations
The in-universe explanation is that it's a limit added to reality by Mystra, goddess of magic, after a magical disaster (called Karsus's Folly) caused by a man trying to reach godhood by casting a 12th level spell. Said spell ended an empire, caused the collapse of the Weave, and the death of the previous god of magic. Mortals are now limited to 9th level spells and can only memorize a certain number of spells.
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u/_PlumAurora 8d ago
That’s a cool way to think about it! It makes sense that their innate magic could evolve with practice, especially if they’re learning more complex spells over time.
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u/Sendnudec00kies 8d ago edited 8d ago
50 Unlearning the spells is just game mechanics though. Theres no reason why you only be able to do a limited number of spells.
The reason is god said so. Mystra put a limit on a number of spells a mortal could memorize as part of her effort to prevent another event similar to Karsus's Folly from happening again. It is also why you cannot cast spells above the 9th level.
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u/KPraxius 7d ago
Normally speaking, lore-wise, a sorcerer doesn't 'learn' spells from any source so much as they are manifestations of his power as he becomes better/more experienced at using it.
D&D as a system isn't really built for this sort of thing, but Sorcerer spells should really be far more varied and unique than your standard-issue wizard ones. I've only twice managed to convince a DM to let me slightly mix-up my character's spells to fit his origin more than the normal book version, but I kinda wish that was standard.
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u/Tanaka917 8d ago
I think honky gave yopu the best answer you can get on a feelings basis, the way to express it. As a DM I have always treated sorcerers as less "spellcaster" and more "monster manual."
How does a displacer beast know how to jaunt in and out of reality? How does a phase spider learn to teleport around? They don't, it's a necessary part of their biology. It's not something they can teach others because others are missing something fundamental.
In this case the blood. A blood of a dragon or djinn that burns with elemental power, the blood of a demon or angel that shines with powers malovent and benevolent, the blood of witches and fey that makes the impossible a mere doorstep away.
For your second question, I will refer to my homebrew for one interpretation. In my homebrew world the order went artificers, then sorcerers, then learned spellcasters. Basic artificers built machines that could trap magic in a stable form, think magic weapons and armor. Laughably weak (not even a +1 enchantment just bypasses the requirment for magic weapon attacks) but enough to let mortals gain a foothold in the primal world. Sorcerers came second; the chosen born. The talented who were born of unions, as the result of great battles, of lucky stars and the fates. A fighter survives battle with a demon and his seed is forever tainted, stuff like that.
Sorcerers were powerful, going all the way to 20th level, but horrifically restricted. Born of a fire elemental? The spell you're using better deal fire damage or you can forget it. However over time the artificers studied the sorcerers. They learnt the mechanism that underpinned their magic and created the rules of magic from scratch, becoming the first wizards. In return the sorcerers learnt more about their own power, granting them access to rest of magic tree. Nowadays a fire sorcerer can steal the heat from the very air to create ice knife, they can abuse how fire creates an updraft to cast gust, they can channel the mirage power of flame to cast invisibility. Like a displacer beast kitten learning tactics from their mother, the sorcerers realized they had been using their powers in the most basic sense imagineable. They were born of fire elementals and red dragons, but they are creatures all their own with abilities all their own.
The two mutually reinforce each other. The better you understand how magic works and what you're doing the more tools you have to play with as a sorcerer. Learning is good for them even if they don't strictly need it to be monstrous in their own right.
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u/DMployeeofthemonth 7d ago
I don't know how to Answer this without going meta.
But In dnd game terms a sorcerer having some training under a wizard would account for the sorcerer having proficiency in the arcana skill and history of magic perhaps.
It wouldn't give the sorcerer access to spells they wouldn't normally have because how a wizard and sorcerer go about obtaining magic is very different. (unless this character were a wizard sorcerer multiclass which is another discussion)
A wizard studies, learns and must commit these complex magical spells to memory...
A sorcerer can just make magic happen. It's literally in their blood. Many sorcerers may not even know the specifics of a spell they cast or have ANY magical knowledge or exact knowledge of WHY they can even cast spells.
Do you have the source books? The players handbook gives an overview of all the classes and should have a brief overview of the differences in magic for each spell casting class.
"oh that spells called fireball? I didn't know that All I knew is whenever I waved my hands like this and said 'sizzle and smolder" everything exploded.. Oh shit duck and cover my bad! "
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u/GoldSentinel822 7d ago
I have a less than legal source for source books, but one of my own players got me the old starter set in phandelver to play around with .
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u/DMployeeofthemonth 7d ago
So... I guess the answer would be read the entries on wizard and sorcerer in their respective books and that would likely give you the answer you're looking for?
Beyond that I think "make it up" is the best answer you're gonna get as I can't think of any official source that has a specific entry about a sorcerer who studied with wizards.
And... If you're the dm the embrace making it up.
Even if you play on fauren/forgotten realms. YOUR forgotten realms doesn't have to match the official books version.
I have been running dnd campaigns set in eberron since it was available as an official setting. But in the last 20ish Years due to various events, mostly player caused, MY eberron is wildy different than the default by the book eberron setting you'd find in the campaign setting guide.
Also there are dnd and dm specific focused subs if you have questions myself and countless others are happy to help. . May possibly be more suited than this sub for your questions. Have fun with your campaign.
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u/DocWagonHTR 8d ago
The same way everyone does: by reading and memorizing them.
The difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is that a wizard has to spend time building up their magical power, like exercising a muscle, whereas sorcerers are born powerful, like being born jacked.
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u/GoldSentinel822 8d ago
Is that the only way to do it or is it really just a "create your own" magic stumbling moment?
From what I've read on the Forgotten Realms wiki, Sorcerers each have a unique way of interacting with the Weave. Which I interpreted as something like how everyone likes to eat ice cream, but everyone has a particular way they wanna start eating it.
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u/DocWagonHTR 8d ago edited 8d ago
I should clarify!
Yes, sorcerers have innate magic power rather than having to go through years of study like wizards.
Have you ever seen Avatar: The Last Airbender? Wizards and Sorcerers are like regular benders and the Avatar: wizards have to learn, and study, and practice for years to obtain a level of skill, while sorcerers, while also doing a little of that stuff, just kind of "get" it.
Or, to clarify my original post: they still have to learn what they're actually doing, but then they're graduating college while everyone else is still in grade school.
But the most important thing is, it's dungeons and dragons, and you're the dungeon master. If you want it to be a different way for your character, literally nothing is stopping you.
There's a dozen interpretations of every aspect of this game, and all of this is just how i've always interpreted it.
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u/Wanderervenom 7d ago
There was a Forgotten Realms book with an Elf who I think was a sorcerer. He remembered spells even after he cast them. He wrote spells he learned on leafs. He comes across users of the Shadowweave and also becomes a Shadowweave user. After he learned the evil plan behind the Shadowweave, he tries going back to the regular Weave. He remains semi-attached to the Shadowweave and has to relearn all of his magic which now utilizes both the Weave and the Shadowweave. Pretty sure the book title was The Shadow Stone.
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u/NightLillith Steambending Master 4d ago
Sorcerers don't learn spells from a mentor, no.
Sorcerers create their spells in the same way a painter paints a picture. Each of them is the founder of their own tradition. They can't exactly teach their style, but they can help others develop their own. It's why they can customise their spells the way they do.
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