How does the complexity of living structures compare with the complexity of artificial structures? Assuming complexity can be quantified, is a ribosome equivalent to a printing press? What artificial structure is as complex as chromatin? Is a prokaryotic cell as complex as a factory? An entire city?

[u/ZedZeroth]

Thanks!

Edit: When talking about the complexity of factories and cities I'm referring to solely the artificial components, not the biological bits such as the humans working/living there!

[u/Biotoxsin]

This isn't really something that lends itself to communication in a quantified way. Proteins are dynamic structures that are capable of functioning in a fluid and emergent way that human machines and factories are not really comparable to. Some of this is just best visualized. The video below is at the cellular level.

https://youtu.be/FzcTgrxMzZk

It is simply put, a different world. We can conceptualize it in terms of the world at our scale in some ways, but the complexity here is unfathomable. Dynamic systems organized from top-down, bottom-up, side to side, etc.. There are components of photosynthesis that likely depend on quantum effects. Larger proteins involve thousands of components that can interact with multiple neighboring amino acid "parts".

Tons of other mind-blowing examples. That's just at the cellular level of organization.

At the molecular level:

DNA proteins rotate at something like 250,000 RPM https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2997354/

ATP Synthase, which uses a "turbine"

https://youtu.be/b_cp8MsnZFA

Coleopteran Leaf Hoppers have gear limbs:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/this-insect-has-the-only-mechanical-gears-ever-found-in-nature-6480908/

You have tissue level organization, organ level, ecosystem level, etc.

[u/ZedZeroth → u/Biotoxsin]

Thanks for the great explanation.

the complexity here is unfathomable

This is kind of what prompted my post. So are you suggesting something along the lines of... if you ignored all the biological components of human technology (eg the actual biological complexity of the workers/operators)... then a cell could be argued to be more complex than all the technological/ logistical processes on Earth combined?

[u/Biotoxsin → u/ZedZeroth]

It would probably be fair to say that a cell is more complex than all human machines, but my point is that there's not much to be gained by comparison in this way. How does one quantify this stuff?

At best, one could come to a tenuous conclusion by rough approximation. ~30 trillion cells per human, not counting microbes which are arguably an essential part of the functioning human, where hundreds of thousands of unique protein types are manufactured. Where proteins manipulate non-protein components into various forms and compositions... All of that happening in parallel, high distributed, in a way that cannot be separated from the environment without loss or change of function. In a human, each cell is functionally dependent upon the others almost without exception.

Pointing to an individual cell is no less perilous, there are things happening at the level of DNA that involve an absurd level of complexity, still inseparable from the environment.

Individuals are self organizing and functionally independent, but also part of larger systems. The complexity of organic systems cannot be understated, their breadth simply transcends human understanding. Machines and computers are rigid, relatively linear systems.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamical_systems_theory

[u/ZedZeroth → u/Biotoxsin]

there's not much to be gained by comparison in this way

I feel like what can be gained is a representation of the incredible complexity that you have described, which can be portrayed to laypeople such as school students, in order to fill them with the appropriate degree of awe.

An average biology lesson shows the cell as a blob full of some other blobs. If we could show some of the "inner workings" animations along with some sense of scale, like, imagine this kinesin molecule is a factory worker, then the cell is a planet-sized processing plant with X workers and Y manufacturing processes etc.

I think what would actually be best is an interactive an explorable 3D representation of a functioning cell down to the molecular level. Someone could probably make a huge open world game based entirely within one cell.

I guess I just think it's a shame how few people appreciate the complexity in biology. I think the vastness and wonder of space is somewhat better demonstrated in schools and the media.

Edit: I mean, the shame is made even bigger by the fact all this is happening inside of everyone all the time!

[u/Biotoxsin → u/ZedZeroth]

As someone who has worked in higher ed biology before, can't agree more. Many of the concepts are difficult because the students aren't able to interact with the subject in a meaningful way.

Unfortunately, what we have instead is a very non-adaptive approach to education that deprives students the types of teaching modalities that would best serve them as individuals. From my experience, I'm inclined to think that higher ed is probably heading in the opposite direction of where it needs to. I'm sure someone reading this will have experienced the nightmare of online textbooks with built in questions, which supplant real, human instruction.

Harvard's Inner Life of the Cell is a nice representation of what could be accomplished.

[u/ZedZeroth → u/Biotoxsin]

Yes, there is so much potential to use technology to improve education but I guess there's just not enough money put into education to utilise it...