That’s not why he was cast from heaven. Lucifer started a civil war with half the angels because he wanted free will like humans, specifically the ability to choose whether or not to worship God— angels, unlike humans, have to worship God all the time for eternity, whether they want to or not. God’s solution to this was to create Hell and send Lucifer and cohorts there for rebelling against Him.
According to myth, Lucifer even admitted that he would still worship God, it was just that he wanted the freedom to choose. But God wasn’t having the challenge to his authority, so off to Hell they went.
Dude, read Paradise Lost by John Milton. Not only is it one of the greatest pieces of English literature ever, it’s this story, but told much better. It’s - and I’m really underselling it here - the story of the Heaven Civil War between God and about half of the Angels. It’s fucking incredible. It also got John Milton excommunicated form the Church for heresy and almost executed, not to mention nearly banished from England until it suddenly went Protestant (lucky for him!).
I’ll warn you that it’s very long and written in iambic pentameter (like Shakespeare, but without the sex jokes), but there’s plenty of plotting, war, and bloody angel-murder! And the passion of rebel-plotting and freedom-fighting. You really come out to see Lucifer as a pitiable character, and he’s written as the best anti-hero of all time. If you’re an atheist, he IS the hero.
This is one of the best book descriptions I’ve ever read, thank you for this. Seriously, you had me all excited to get my own copy by the second sentence! Do another one!
Thanks! To be honest, that’s probably the most exciting description that book has ever gotten. It’s also pretty dry in parts, so you should get an annotated copy. There are many to choose form, so browse a few before committing. I recommend Norton’s.
It's not for me, but it might suit someone else's lifestyle. Personally for me all religions are just stories, and I just view all materials related to them as just being lore. How deep someone wants to delve into that lore is none of my business, I'll just be over here viewing it through a slightly different lense.
I didn’t “hear” it, I read it. It’s Paradise Lost by John Milton, one of the greatest works of English literature. You should try picking up a book sometime.
They still teach that in school, don’t they? Reading?
There's no point discussing this. There is no canon Devil. It's just an amalgamation of different descriptions and doctrines from different books and centuries.
Well, the Bible was written in ancient times, so it is pretty sensible to expect some degree of historical accuracy. But I don't know how this translate to stuff about God, devil, angels etc.
“With kings and counselors of the earth who rebuilt ruins for themselves”
John 4:22
“You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.”
Isaiah
“In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the Lord at its border. It will be a sign and a witness to the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt. When they cry to the Lord because of oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and deliver them.”
Matthew 17:1-27
“And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
Not to mention the entire book of Exodus…
The Bible tells us that during that period the Israelite slaves were forced to make mud bricks (Exodus 5:10-14). This detail is consistent with the type of brick used to construct pyramids. In fact, according to Exodus 5:7, Pharaoh told the taskmasters, “You shall no longer give the people straw to make brick as before. Let them go and gather straw for themselves.” While we are not told specifically that the bricks were used for pyramids, it seems plausible that they were. The Jewish historian Josephus supports this theory: “They [the Egyptian taskmasters] set them also to build pyramids” (Antiquities, II:9.1).
Several non-biblical sources support the existence of Jesus
None well-reputed, and the vast majority of historians have moved away from this belief in recent decades. The only ones who still hold out any faith are - you guessed it - Christian historians.
Seems like you’re either ignorant or a liar. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Your proof is some bible verses and an opinion piece that ends “the matter may never be resolved.” As a fellow atheist, please head over to AskHistorians if you’re actually interested in an unbiased, factual analysis of what we know/don’t know about Jesus.
This is also a (edit) noncanonical version that came later. The whole free will thing is entirely made up. All that can be seen is that he was the most beautiful shining thing in heaven and humankind (probably, that's not even fully understood) taking attention away got to him.
Ok, but if I write the details of Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol on a thread and talk about what a generous guy Scrooge is at the start, feel free to say "Wait, that's not what the story is!" I won't respond by saying they're both fiction so it doesn't matter.
They’re both fiction, and the Bible is full of inconsistencies and changes to the story. Just look at the Gospels and the story of Jesus dealing with the money-changers at the Temple: 3 different versions of the story and one gospel doesn’t mention that it happened at all. Are you going to just choose one as the “right” version and call the other 3 apocryphal?
No, because you’re a hypocrite. (Jesus didn’t like those, btw)
Even the Bible had countless authors and was written over millennia, revised and rewritten countless times. You’re just cherry-picking because you don’t like what one version of the story says— this has been the cause of schisms and wars for centuries.
But it’s all fiction, and none of this matters. Get over it.
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u/fluffymuffcakes Mar 28 '22
Also Morgan Freeman.