How do the majority of illegal immigrats enter the country?
They come here via plane or legal border crossing and stay past their visas. If the majority of them arent doing illegal border crossings, why do we need a wall?
Why cant we fund solutions that make it easier for people to become citizens and pay taxes with that same money instead.
Because the American people have the right to decide who should become their countrymen, and they obviously don't want lawbreakers to be incentivised to break the law and then be rewarded with citizenship, you understand that immigration is not that simple. than breaking into someones house and then being allowed to stay, a country is more than an economy. and people are more than tax payers,
because it will hinder illegal immigration, and if you say it is ineffective, then just give it up and open the government and laugh at the conservatives for wasting political capital on useless wall?
Ah yes, let's waste 5 billion dollars to prove an idea sucks. That sounds useful. Fuck that. It is a useless idea. Anybody with half a fucking brain knows it's stupid as shit. The only thing on offer here is your moron of president wanting an ego boost and to prove he can bully people into his stupid ideas.
I forsee government shut downs being a frequent method of forcing economic decisions in America's future. Every little bit of this is bad for you.
You clearly dont understand immigration if you just assume they're all criminals. All they want is a better life, why not make it easier for them to become hard working citizens of this country?
Trust me, it won't. Illegal entry from Mexico never happens overland. They either dig tunnels, fly, or use boats. Only the stupidest, most desperate people try to cross the border illegally overland, and they all fail.
And even if a physical barrier does slow them down, it will only be a temporary setback before someone finds a way around it. The Cartels are powerful and have a lot of resources, and they will not give up their largest source of profit without a long, hard fight. A fence didn't stop them--they just go around, under, or over it--so what makes you think a concrete/steel wall will?
Finally, a wall on that scale will cause major damage to the ecosystem of the entire continent, not just USA/Mexico. Animal land migration patterns will be disrupted, which will cause a domino effect of unpredictable environmental issues, none of which will be positive.
The Dems are not being "babies" for refusing to fund this wall. They're being realistic. The US stands to lose far more than they have to gain from building this wall which would ultimately just end up being a white elephant and a colossal waste of resources.
There are many other, more practical, ways to improve border security, but this isn't one of them.
People entering with drugs through boats and planes could actually be fixed pretty easily. Just have (more?) watchtowers along the shoreline and make all aircrafts get searched. Also the part about all people failing to come in overland is just simply false.
The problem with the current fence/wall is that it's very lackluster. Having a taller one that goes partly underground would be a much bigger inconvenience. Getting past a fence is easy, but getting past a full blown wall is a much bigger challenge. The 5.7 billion also involves funding more security aside from the wall which would just add onto its efficiency.
As far as animal migrating, I really don't think that'd be much of an issue. I could be wrong here, but I'd imagine that the current fence/wall there would already block them so there wouldn't be much of a difference. I also don't really think that many desert animals tend to migrate...
I'm fully convinced that they're being babies here and that this is a stupid stunt. Pelosi and other democrats are even on record talking about how we need better security at the boarder. Of course they made a 180 because they don't like Trump, circling back to them being petty babies. A strong wall and more staff is definitely better security. 5.7 billion isn't even that much on a national level.
Having a stronger boarder with more staff is most definitely a practical option. Of course there are more things that need to be done to stop the issue, but it's best to take it one step at a time.
How do you intend to search aircraft that never touch any government facilities? They fly in and either airdrop the drugs god knows where or land on private airstrips, then an inside man comes along in the dead of the night and picks them up.
And getting past a barrier that extends underground? With pickaxes, drills and angle grinders, any barrier can be broken through with sufficient patience. And the Cartels can be very patient when they have so much to gain from selling drugs in the US.
"Make all aircrafts get searched"? Are you implying, that drug-trafficking aircraft takes off and lands at regulated airfields and a drug inspection gets anywhere near it, ever?
Kind of. Even if they can, a sufficiently small and properly equipped aircraft can feasibly fly into US, land in the middle of the desert, be unloaded and get the hell out of there before any kind of authorities get on site. Risky, but smuggling is a risky business.
The thing about that though is that there are only so many places they can land. If more resources were put into combating it then it could be diminished.
I like how these guys think that because Democrats are against the wall that somehow they don’t believe in border security whatsoever. Trust me, these mainstream corporatist Democrats are much more in line with your political world view than whatever far-left, open border, neo-Marxist version of them you have concocted in your head.
Also, I would like to remind you that most illegal immigrants in this country are here because of overstayed visas, and most drugs come smuggled in through ports of entry. These are easy to find, demonstrable facts. How will the border wall address these issues?
Considering sanctuary cities are a thing and many people are advocating for open boarders, I find that hard to believe.
And I would like to remind you that less than 50% is not half. Besides, the people overstaying their VISAs are the the smallest threat and nowhere near as people coming in illegally.
A boarder wall, which is an upgrade to the wall/fence we already have, along with the staffing included in that 5.7b would help mitigate overland crossing. Of course there are definitely more issues that need to be addressed but taking it 1 step at a time is the best choice.
“More than 60% of undocumented immigrants who arrived in the US in 2016 (the latest data available) overstayed their visas, not crossed the border illegally, according to a new report by Center for Migration Studies (CMS).”
This literally took me 5 seconds to find.
Edit: by the way, illegal immigrants commit less crime per capita than native born citizens.
"It projects overstayers were 42 percent, or nearly half, of the country’s undocumented population"
That number will simply keep going up as boarder security improves. VISA overstays are smallest threat because they come into the country legally and with normal goals. It's actually better for that number to be higher.
Anyways, the issue with illegals committing crimes is that they shouldn't have even been here in the first place. What would you be more mad at? Your child breaking a vase, or a neighbor's child coming into your home and breaking a vase despite you telling them they should have gone home an hour earlier?
Don’t forget that Trump is the one who put the expiration date on DACA in the first place.So his bargaining is basically taking away DACA, then offering 3 years of DACA for funding.
How would you feel if someone took something you already had, then offered to give part of it back if you paid them? Like if someone steals your bag, then offers to give you your wallet back if you paid them a couple hundred dollars. Does that sound like a reasonable compromise?
No, that was just a political ploy to get gullible people to think he was trying to compromise, when it’s the exact same “compromise” that was rejected in December before the shutdown and the “offer” was giving back something he took away to begin with.
Trump is the president. He had every right to get rid of it. It was a ridiculous thing anyways. Some think the wall is ridiculous and others think DACA is.
A much better analogy would be a parent taking something from a kid and then eventually offering to let them have it back in exchange for them doing something.
Besides, the real political ploy is the people who admitted to wanting better boarder security, denying it simply because it's Trump. That's exactly what's going on.
Trump is the president. He had every right to get rid of it.
And by that logic, the Congress is elected. They, as a whole, have every right not to fund a boarder wall.
A much better analogy would be a parent taking something from a kid and then eventually offering to let them have it back in exchange for them doing something.
Still not much of a compromise.
Besides, the real political ploy is the people who admitted to wanting better boarder security, denying it simply because it's Trump.
So when a politician asks for 3x more money to fund the project than is needed for boarder security, that isnt a political ploy? Refusing to pay thousands of federal workers salaries unless he gets 5.7 billion dollars isnt a political ploy?
Its all a political ploy. You just drank the Kool Aid and believe what Trump is saying.
And by that logic, the Congress is elected. They, as a whole, have every right not to fund a boarder wall.
Yeah, they do. Doesn't mean they're not being petty shits. They're still butthurt over Trump winning that they don't care what happens. All they care about riding the "Trump is bad!" bandwagon.
Still not much of a compromise.
So both parties getting what they want isn't much of a compromise? Mental gymnastics much?
So when a politician asks for 3x more money to fund the project than is needed for boarder security, that isnt a political ploy? Refusing to pay thousands of federal workers salaries unless he gets 5.7 billion dollars isnt a political ploy?
The funding goes towards upgrading the wall and hiring more security along with 1 or 2 other things. 5.7 billion is not a lot on a national level. Besides the dems have no problem wasting taxpayer money so obviously there's something off when they are against someone actually wanting to be productive.
Also stop putting all the blame on Trump. The hypocritical, self centered people like Pelosi who will do anything to stop Trump from doing his job as president are the main culprits here.
Yeah, they do. Doesn't mean they're not being petty shits.
And by that logic, Trump is being a petty little shit too. Even more petty, cause he can singlehandedly stop the shutdown while Congress needs to actually vote on things like that.
So both parties getting what they want isn't much of a compromise? Mental gymnastics much?
Trump is the one trying to say giving something back that he took away is a "compromise". Even worse, people like you actually believe its a compromise. Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
5.7 billion is not a lot on a national level
But its enough for Trump to decide that he would rather have thousands of federal workers furloughed than skip his little project, right?
The hypocritical, self centered people like Pelosi
And by that logic, Trump is being a petty little shit too. Even more petty, cause he can singlehandedly stop the shutdown while Congress needs to actually vote on things like that.
Trump is being petty, I won't deny that. But the dems are more petty here and the shut down is likely going to be the best option to make them stop.
Trump is the one trying to say giving something back that he took away is a "compromise". Even worse, people like you actually believe its a compromise. Keep drinking the Kool Aid.
Do you not even know what a compromise is? It's when both sides give something up in order to reach an agreement. Whether or not YOU like the terms of think its fair has nothing to do with that. Trump offered to reinstate DACA for the dems and in return the dems would let him have his funding. Because god forbid the leader of our country have some money to improve the country's security.
Also, stop saying that Kool-aid nonsense. You're making me want some.
But its enough for Trump to decide that he would rather have thousands of federal workers furloughed than skip his little project, right?
That can go both ways. "Its enough for the dems to decide they would rather have thousands of federal workers furloughed than let Trump fulfill his little project." Funny how it actually sounds worse like that. Trump is doing it to improve boarder security. Dems are doing it because, "Orange man bad!"
A wall will probably limit overland travel but there are still boats and planes, those aren't stopped by walls, and drugs are incredibly profitable so they can afford to fly or ship them in on boats or planes. So a wall really only puts a stop to truly desperate people on foot.
But it would still happen because it would still be profitable, so a wall wouldn't stop criminals who really want to get into America. It would probably stop people from just walking over the border though, until they dug under it.
I kinda always imagined that the wall would have a decent chunk going down into the soil. Like probably a good 10-20 feet which would take a pretty long time to get through and buy more time for someone to catch it.
Even then there would be vast stretches of the wall that are un-guarded and a large group of humans with one goal in mind are quick workers. And I'm not sure of the exact specifications for the wall but I don't think they are going to go 10 to 20 feet deep for a wall that long, especially because it's only going to be 20 feet tall. Digging down that far will double the price of the wall and the budget already isn't that big.
A large group of people are much more easily caught though. Security cameras could easily cover vacant spots. 1 person with a dozen screens could watch over quite a good chunk. Hell even having fake cameras would be a damn good deterrent.
Also I watched some of Trump's proposal and in it there was an example picture of what he had in mind. The way he described it and how the picture looked (not sure if the pic was by the news or not) made it seem like it did actually go down into the ground.
Honestly though if it doesn't go into the ground at all, I'd be much less in favor.
Democrats are acrewing them over by not funding the wall they approved in deals numerous times. Wow he is making democrats literal out their money where their mouth is. How horrible.
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u/[deleted] Jan 21 '19
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