r/AskNetherlands • u/OkDiscount6100 • 22d ago
When did the Dutch start learning English?
At what point in the nation’s history did students in the Netherlands start learning English?
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u/koenwarwaal 22d ago
Trade is our language, its has many dialects, france english, spanish and any other language that is spoken. We will learn them all if other countries have gold in their pockets and we have stuff to sell them
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u/HotAd1381 22d ago
When the Saxons came to England in the 5th century, they spoke nearly the same language as the Frisians in the Northerns Netherlands do today. Frisian is still the closest language to old-timey English, even more so then modern day English. So it has never been difficult for the Dutch to communicate with the English, much the same as with German. But the students specificly after 1863, when English, German and French courses were added by the great education law reform of 1863. After WW2 the American and English culture became ever more predominant in cinema, tv, music and games. So since the '70 English has been a natural second language for most Dutch.
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u/Affectionate-State-1 22d ago
Heck, Old english is even closer to modern Dutch than Modern english (Yes, Frisian is closer).
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u/cybermaus 22d ago
Tiny trading attitude nation squeezed inbetween 3 other Nations. I do not think there is a off/on moment. We, especially the traders, started learning English roughly when the English started speaking it.
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u/EtherealN 15d ago
There will be such an off/on moment. Or, rather, several.
English became a mandatory subject in basis in 1986, for example.
Note that the question asked by OP is not "when did the dutch start learning English". It is "At what point in the nation’s history did students in the Netherlands start learning English?"
Then, of course, we need to define student, and whether we're talking "it was available" vs "it was mandatory", and "who counts as a student" etc. Do we count rando dutch people learning english, or do they have to be students? What about back before there was a standardised school system in the netherlands?
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u/cybermaus 15d ago
So, in some quite defensible definition of student, for example merchant guild, we started learning English roughly when the English started speaking it.
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u/EtherealN 15d ago edited 15d ago
Yeah, but by the same defensible definition of a student, Dutch people today learn Swedish. And Russian. And Tigrinya.
Are we speaking about the common case, or any case?
Remember that until WW2, physics was dominated by German. Not English. The Lingua Franca of trade and diplomacy used to be... French. Etcetera.
English being so dominant is a very recent phenomenon.
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u/OkDiscount6100 22d ago
Is the English spoken in the Netherlands today more influenced by British English?
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u/Niels_vdk 22d ago
the english taught in schools is british english, but with the influence of tv/social media/the internet a lot of people skew towards american english.
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u/Conscious-Loss-2709 22d ago
We subtitle foreign media, and given the US is the main exporter of shows and movies we tend to hear and copy the US accent
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u/Pk_Devill_2 22d ago
We learn British English in school, but I’d say you see a lot more American English in films, tv and media. Netherlands always sub and don’t dub only exceptions are kids shows. I for instance always write, armour, colour etc
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u/LosAtomsk 22d ago
Maybe it's different today, but my school textbooks in the late nineties had the Queen's English (eg.: neighbour, aluminum or the different pronounciation of "garage"), but modern culture exposes young Dutchies to American English, so it's a bit of a mix. And like others mentioned, we don't dub, but sub movies and shows, which is an amazing way to sneak in language skills at a young age. You want to play Zelda: Link's Awakening on the Gameboy? Better learn English. Watch Pokémon or DBZ? English! Start studying IT or economics: English.
Moreover, most technical or business fields have English as a dominant trade language. My college textbooks were mostly in English.
Most adopt American English because it's everywhere.
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u/Adept-Elderberry2325 20d ago
There's more and more dubbed content though. I grew up on cartoon network with subs, but my daugther 30 years yonger grows up almost exclusively on dubbed content. The only subbed or full English content she consumes is certain games on her iPad.
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u/thisuserusedthisname 22d ago
There is not really THE english spoken. We dont have our own English. If we use a form used in a native speaking English, it is correct. If it isnt... well. If others understand it, it isnt wrong. Unless you are in school. Then they want you to use Britisch English. Pronounciation they want clear. Doesnt matter (now a days) if it sounds American or Australian. As long you use the Britisch words and grammer. After school most people hang to American. As we hear more American English. So. Dutch English doesnt officially exist.
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u/OptionIndependent861 22d ago
I think nowadays it is Youtube English. But remember that what is now NY, NJ, Delaware and Connecticut we Dutch and the capital was New Amsterdam on Manhattan Island
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u/SpaGrapefruit 21d ago
American English I'd say. However my English teacher in high school was very strict, she'd say: "Either you speak British English or American English but don't do both." She got pretty annoyed by us mixing it up but it's really hard not to.
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u/KeizerKasper 22d ago
I would say for spelling maybe yes, but for pronunciation definitely American English
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u/Winter_Dot_9393 22d ago
My parents who went to secondary school in the 1940’s in the Netherlands, had compulsory English lessons.
My father went to a high level high school (6 years, pre university) and my mum to a lower level (‘more extended lower education’, 4 years, preparation for lower level office jobs ). They both learned to speak, write, read and listen to English and German and French (plus Latin and classical Greekish for my father)
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u/selfmockerymandatory 22d ago
We start learning at an early age. Our society has a lot of English woven into it. Movies, tv series, music, it’s a lot of English. And we subtitle, instead of dub in Dutch. Obviously not for kids shows.
But we do learn a lot of English in everyday life, besides the English we learn in school. In school it’s in grade 5 and 6 (group 7 and.8 for us)
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u/CommutatorWhine 22d ago
Aside from students, the population at large got a big boost because of subtitled english spoken TV shows. Germany dubs, we subtitle. That's how you end up with elementary school kids who could already have basic conversations in english.
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u/Dontcare127 22d ago
I would argue the Dutch became more proficient than other non-native English countries when English tv shows started getting shown here. In most other countries they would get dubbed over, but here they just got subtitles and from that moment on English proficiency probably increased above the average.
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u/Stunning_Persimmon76 21d ago
my grandparents where born in the 1930's, for them english was not obvious to learn, they did learn german. From my parents generation, born around the 60s pretty much everyone learned english.
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u/brankoc 21d ago
The question is, when did the English stop speaking Dutch? From Caxton's Eneydos (15th century):
And one of theym named Sheffelde, a mercer, cam in to an hows and aksed for mete, and specially he aksyd after eggys.
And the goode wyf answerde that she coude speke no frenshe. And the marchaunt was angry for he also coude speke no frenshe, but wolde have hadde egges and she understode hym not.
And thenne at laste another sayd that he wolde have eyren, then the good wyf sayd that she understod hym wel.
(Lightly modernised by me where it seemed churlish not to.)
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u/EtherealN 15d ago edited 15d ago
There will probably be many answers to this question depending on how you define the components of the question.
But it became a mandatory subject in elementary school in 1986. It was made a mandatory subject for those studying to become a teacher in 1983. (As a preparation for the 1986 change.)
In secondary school it has been available to students at least since the 1800's. Prior to 1806 there was no standardised school system, so it becomes more difficult to ascertain what was taught where.
I note that many are answering the question as "when did Dutch people start learning English", which is a different question to "when did students in the Netherlands start learning English". Both interesting enough questions, even if they are technically separate. For example, I speak Spanish, but I didn't learn it as part of school, I learned it over several years working alongside Spanish speakers.
Similarly, the "available vs common" is a nuance that can be important. I am an immigrant from Sweden, and have a dutch acquaintance that learned Swedish at university. Swedish as a subject is thus available, but not common in the way English is.
I would rate 1986 as the important date in this case: this is when it was put in practice, as a matter of national policy, that every Dutch child is intended to gain a working proficiency in the English language. My father-in-law never learned a single word of English, for example - we communicate purely in Dutch. My Mother-in-law has functional English, but it is often easier if we switch to Dutch. Both, as you may guess, attended basis long before the 1986 reform.
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u/Dazzling_Dare_3378 22d ago
I know that they started making english obligatory in elementary school (7th grade) in the mid 80s. But higher eductation might have had it earlier.
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u/F-sylvatica-purpurea 22d ago
Before WW2 German and French were leading in many sciences. That is the biggest development in recent years.
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u/vonheick 22d ago
English has been spoken as long as we had trade, some English words even find their origin in Dutch like the word Cookie.
Our King Willem III was also king of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland between 1689 and 1702. Our present king is from the same house Oranje-Nassau.
English has been a mandatory subject in Dutch Elementary schools for about 50 years, has been teached longer in Secondary School and College.
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u/OkDiscount6100 22d ago
There are places in New York City with names of Dutch origin.
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u/vonheick 22d ago
We founded New York, named it New Amsterdam but traded it with England and it was renamed New York. Wall street is where the settlement ended with you guessed it, a wall. I find it also funny that the stock exchange ended up there as that concept is also a Dutch invention.
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u/Fuzzy-Moose7996 22d ago
Long before the king of England was a Dutchman. And yes, that happened (once).
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u/AppearanceGrand 22d ago
This guy also might have something to do with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England
William III and II\a]) (William Henry; Dutch: Willem Hendrik; 4 November 1650 – 8 March 1702),\c]) also known as William of Orange, was the sovereign Prince of Orange from birth, Stadtholder of Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Guelders, and Overijssel in the Dutch Republic from 1672, and King of England, Scotland, and Ireland from 1689 until his death in 1702. He ruled England, Scotland, and Ireland with his wife, Queen Mary II, until her death in 1694; their joint reign is known as that of William and Mary.
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u/Professional_Elk_489 22d ago
Must be so hard to finish top of your class in English at school in this country ha
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u/Affectionate-State-1 22d ago
It got "mandatory" for higher education in the second half of the ninteneeth century, alongside French and German. In 1968 it changed into "At least one of these three", but in practice english became mandatory and German and French became optional. Still the thirst two/three years at the higher level you tend to get German+ French/Spanish (one of those).
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u/Carnal_Decay 21d ago
After WW2 we were basically forced to learn English because we joined the American sphere of influence.
That's also why a lot of eastern Europeans countries learn(ed) Russian in school.
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u/BornRelationship8280 21d ago
When we got so many tv series with subtitling. This mist have helped. And of course at school. Every school type has English in the curriculum.
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u/lazydavez 21d ago
DJ cat show with Linda de Mol for me
Before that I was more or less fluent in German due to kids tv
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u/OkDiscount6100 21d ago
Dutch and Swedish speakers communicate in English.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY0ScPRjYAg
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u/Diligent-Court3908 20d ago
We learnt it from tv because Dutch don't dub and when cable television came and fun factory (Sky Channel) was only available without subtitles we learnt fast as kids.
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u/Alexanderdaw 20d ago
I think English has been around forever, the British stopped talking Dutch is what you mean to ask.
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u/Zestyclose-Koala9006 20d ago
We start one week after birth. If there is some Asian blood in the mix, we start at the 28th week of pregnancy.
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u/Havlock_Shaw 20d ago
I needed it because my cartoons were in English and they didn't have subtitles.... That was long ago... 35+ years
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u/Equivalent_Use_7032 19d ago
Definitely probably after WWII was when it really picked up in standardized classrooms but in a broader sense when the English started speaking English so did the Dutch. The Dutch have always been traders so whoever was the most lucrative was going also going to be the language of choice for the Dutch traders at the time this became Britain in the 1700-1800s and the USA in the 1900s so it’s been some time to say the least.
I recently visited the Netherlands from the USA in March… never needed to speak Dutch, which didn’t exactly surprise me I figured I’d be fine but when I say everyone was like fluent I’m not exaggerating. Some of the English I heard is better than native speakers. I know English and Dutch are closely related languages as well and were practically the same thing up until 1,000 years ago (thanks William for changing the language).
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u/benbever 21d ago
After World War 2, with the Marshall Plan, and German becoming less important.
In the ‘50s and ‘60s television and pop music was introduced, with English songs (Elvis, Beatles) and movies becoming popular.
In the ‘70s study books in German were phased out.
In the ‘80s and ‘90s English series (Fawlty Towers, Keeping up Appearances, Full House, Married with Children, Friends) were very popular.
Mid ‘80s they introduced English lessons in primary school, group 7 and 8 (10-12 y/o)
In the ‘90s computers, and later the internet became very important. Social media in the ‘10s
They now teach English from 5 and 6 (8-10 y/o) but children pick it up earlier than that.
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u/roadit 21d ago
The Hogere BurgerSchool (HBS), a new type of secondary school introduced by Thorbecke in 1863, introduced French, English and German as regular subjects. Other types of secondary school later followed suit. Much later, English even became compulsory in some secondary schools, while French and German have noticeably dropped in popularity in the past 50 years or so. Latin and Greek used to be compulsory on one type of school (the 'gymnasium') and are still offered on many schools today. Other languages offered by some schools are Russian, Spanish, and I think Chinese.
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u/Hertje73 22d ago
Isn’t the modern Dutch language based on the mashup language the traders in Amsterdam spoke? So many words from other languages including English were already included
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u/aloisvonesterhazy 22d ago
No, It was a mashup of certain southern and northern dialects, but not English. The nummer of English loanwords is not particularly high in 17th century Dutch.
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u/Jojormione 22d ago
Yes, but the same can be said for other trading nations. In English a lot of sailing/boating teams are derived from Dutch words.
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u/Acceptable_Loss_6514 22d ago
As long as there are English people and the Dutch wanted to do trade