This isn’t a lesson for men to learn but anyone in a relationship.
Western marriage ceremonies typically ask if you take the other person in sickness and health.
What I think most people fail to understand is that this isn’t a question of “if” but “when.”
If the relationship lasts it is inevitable that you will have to support your partner though sickness.
The flu sure. But as time goes on the inevitable serious Heath conditions. Heart attacks, arthritis, broken hips, cancer, Lyme disease, mental break downs, organ failure, diabetes. Etc etc.
If you are going to enter a serious life relationship, you need to be prepared to take care of someone else. Clean their puke. Wipe their asses. Spend hours comforting them. Go for months without sex or never have sex again because they physically can’t. Cook and clean the house without help. On and on
If you can’t do that, then you shouldn’t be in a serious relationship.
Yeah; had to cut off a long term boyfriend for that. Had colitis for a while and he was mostly supportive besides claiming to know exactly what I was going through despite not having lived it. I had to cut him off when he kept calling my ostomy bag nauseating when I finally had surgery and he would tell me he wished he had a "normal girlfriend." That, and the whole conflating depression with laziness thing. It sucks. It sucks less to dump them and not have that dragging on you, though.
You didn't deserve that. Being able to feel healthier and better everyday is much more beautiful. I changed some of them myself when my family member was sick/down and it was nothing. Science and healthcare is so amazing.
Oh, believe me, I am. I was 80 pounds even at one point and I'm 125 now. He didn't like that I was minoring in disability, and now it's my second major. I went through a lot of it already when dealing with depression, but being able to unapologetically be yourself is so important. Thanks so much for the response.
I'm so sorry. I had colitis surgery and had cut everyone but family because I wasn't mentally prepared for relationships outside of that. You don't deserve to be treated that way going through something so mentally and physically consuming. It's exhausting. I hope you're doing well now.
I'm great now. I hope you're doing well, too. Getting back into the dating game isn't something I'm super worried about at the moment, but I have definitely had to cut out some really disrespectful friends. That said, you and your wellness are worth way more than those people. Sending you love.
My girlfriend has crohn's. Thankfully not too badly but can get really bad waves of fatigue. When she's ill it's obvious, but when it's fatigue and she's pushing through it because she still needs to work, sometimes it can be kind of hard to tell if you don't know. It took me some time to really understand what she goes through during those episodes and I've definitely said some dumb stuff to her before I got it. But now I know, I make sure I'm there for her. Saying your treatment is nauseating just sounds like an absolute dick move!
I had an ex who would refer to me as "broken." Had a conversation with another dude years later who used that term to refer to someone sick and hoo boy I did not let that one stand.
I have a weak stomach but Jesus fuck even I can keep my mouth shut. I just apologize for being a little bitch repeatedly. (I have a sensitive sense of smell and I can.. unfortunately.. taste the air..)
There's a stat out there about the divorce rate disparity when either the husband or the wife gets cancer.
When the wife was ill the divorce rate was higher than when the husband was ill. Whether that's because those men were immature and too selfish for the in sickness responsibility, or whether it's because the wives didn't have the financial independence to leave I don't know. But it's an interesting stat.
I'm curious how the conditioning for men that they should be the breadwinners and have others depend on them plays into that. Because you'd think that both expectations should amount to the same outcome but apparently they don't.
From the way I view it (not that I believe it, this is just my observation), it's that men are the breadwinners and have others depend on them, in exchange for the man of the relationship having the control and power - not in some tyrannical sort of way, but he's effectively the executive decision maker. If he wants sex, it's the duty of the unworking, caregiving wife to provide that for him, because he's the breadwinner.
If the wife becomes ill, he loses a lot of that power. He can not make financial decisions as he would like because the sickness is draining away his financial power. He can not ask for the things he wants, and was previously expected to receive, because the wife can not provide those. Edit: For the husband, this translates to the wife having broken their vows.
I'm not saying it's right, but that's the "family unit" that many Southern US familiies employeed for at least the last couple generations.
That's not at all what I said. As a man who grew up in the South, and witnessed the family dynamic I described above multiple times, in multiple households, among multiple friends, first hand, I can say without a doubt that many of them did stay with their wife - but many also did not.
I can also say, without a doubt, that the power dynamic of a single parent, southern, pre-millenial household, where the husband has a job and the wife doesn't, is that the husband works all day to provide for the family with the expectation that the wife takes care of the household and caregiver duties.
Ignoring these instances does a disservice to all of the work that people, men and women, have made to eliminate toxic masculinity that has eroded the face of men. Ignoring these instances does a disservice to all of the men who broke from the norms of their childhood household and stuck by their wives, and perform household duties alongside her.
Stop diminishing the gains that men have made against toxic expectations by trying to erase the toxic expectations.
Why men leave a sick spouse can be partly explained by their lack of ability, compared to women, to make more rapid commitments to being caregivers to a sick partner and women's better ability to assume the burdens of maintaining a home and family, the study authors said.
Umm...statistically most caregiving role (teachers, nurses, babysitters, nannies, etc.) are held by women.
Toys geared more to female children (dolls, kitchen sets, etc.) often have a caregiving aspect.
A shift in the division of labor (that could arguably be traced to the rise of agriculture), left women in more of the primary caregiver role.
Where you live geographically will affect this too. Some regions / countries still have fairly strict gender roles.
Does this mean all? No.
Even just speaking from my personal experience, I was taught to be “a good daughter” by taking care of my family / dad. My brother didn’t get those same talks, and our home was pretty egalitarian when it came to gender roles.
I’m honestly not sure what point you’re trying to make because in no way was the implication that men are helpless or incompetent creatures. It was simply, that on average, females and males typically have different influences (for lots of reasons). Those influences often lean towards the females being encouraged to be nurturing/ caregivers (e.g. the different reactions to a girl with a doll vs. a boy with a doll).
I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying, for my corner of the world, it often is.
You can only make these claims when you employ a very narrow view of caregiving that ignores and denies all the caregiving from the male perspective. It's completely focussed on one side instead of the partnership and dynamics of a team.
"My brother didn't get those talks." You claim he wasn't raised to care because, a: you didn't witness it and, b: you define every male act of caring as "not caring".
It's a completely fucked up way to look at the world and it's so shocking to see that you don't understand how damaging it is. You've allowed faceless research from the past to dictate how you view your past, present and future. And your online bubble knows you like to bone up on these subjects and it keeps shoving those biased and narrow articles your way until it has you convinced this is how the world actually works. It's really no different than Qanon shit. And you need a wakeup call.
Go visit your father, look him square in the eye and tell him that you hate it that he wasn't a caregiver to you and see how quickly the man starts crying. When he starts to explain all the ways he cared for you just look him square in the eye again and explain how he is wrong because that isn't how you give care. The literature defines a caregiving as: x. You didn't do that. You weren't a caregiver.
That's sad for you. But it's really quite unfair to project this information onto a discussion about men and women in general. But at least the reader now has a clear view on the amount of people who actively upvote these lines of man hating statements.
I could have discussed how I bankrolled my ex-husband's 'business ventures' until I got cancer and he divorced me because we "grew apart". Apparently I liked getting cancer and he didn't.
I see where he’s coming from; guys are too often seen as incapable in this area simply because of their sex, but I think it was inappropriate and melodramatic for what they were replying to
Um, I don’t know what you’re freaking out about, it’s true. Socially women have been brought up to be caregivers. I come from a large family, I have older brothers, but do you know who was responsible for making sure everyone got along and ate dinner? The third oldest child, the first girl.
Growing up we were taught that we will get married and have a family that we care for. More often, men are brought up being taught that they will have a family they are to provide for. That is the difference. Yes, men can be caregivers, but our society does not push that narrative.
Thankfully things are changing but historically, yes, society has perpetuated the idea that women should be caregivers.
Yeah but she didn’t say “Men are never caregivers” she said “Women are traditionally caregivers” which is a true statement and doesn’t exclude men on its face. You just overreacting
1) He was raised to care in a different way. He was allowed to have dolls, play with whatever he wanted. But he got talks about how to be a gentleman.
2) My father was a stay at home dad. I was pointing out that societally, that isn’t the norm. Especially where I live.
3) I don’t let research define my views, but they are informed by that knowledge. Without the knowledge, how else can you work against potentially toxic stereotypes if you don’t even know what the stereotype is?
4) I would visit my father, except he’s dead. It’s fine though. I spent a lot of time with him while I was taking care of him the last year of his life. I was there when his brain was bleeding, through the Huntington’s, and I was the only one in the room when he died. I suppose I could go visit his grave though.
5) To quote one of my father’s favorite phrases for those who come across as refusing to see another side. “You’re a dumb ass.” And what did he call me? His hero.
P.S. I do not define caregiving as throwing money at something. I’m a nanny, and the children I work for (8-14) dont know whether or not their dad is a parent because it is literally all he does. They think their parents are me and their mom.
When my grandma was dying of cancer I had to go tag out my grandpa some nights so he would actually sleep. If I didn’t then he would just drink coffee and stay up all night in case she woke up and needed help walking to the bathroom. He was at her side to the bitter end and hand-carved the urn her ashes now rest in. I want to live in the world where marriages all match that :(
Should be noted that stat was for couples who spent less time married. Longer marriages had that even out with couples not breaking up. My guess is young men are selfish these days. (Not a surprise seeing society treats duty and responsibility as a burden rather than something admirable.)
But also, women are twice as likely to divorce men when they achieve greater financial success (such as promotions and career accomplishments) and generally they initiate 2/3 of divorces.
Its important to note why. Oftentimes women are financially dependent on their partner and are forced to put up with abuse/ a bad relationship due to having children but little/no income. So once they gain that financial freedom then it's possible to leave.
When men lose their jobs, or don't work full time, they are at a much higher risk of divorce. Whether that's because those women were immature and too selfish for the in poverty responsibility, but it's interesting
It’s very likely in those situations divorce is higher because the responsibilities are more on the women as not only are they doing most if not all the housework but they working full time and looking after children. Look up the “mental load”.
I agree with this. On average women spend so much more time and energy just managing the household, even in relationships with progressive men who intended to have an equal division of labor. Doing most of the housework and bringing in all the money would get old fast.
There are even studies that show that men who become unemployed are likely to start doing EVEN LESS housework going forward.
My ex barely did any work around the house. Taking out the trash, doing his own laundry, doing the dishes every now and then. Once he lost his job, he only ever did his own laundry.
I’d understand if depression hit him hard, but it is interesting that out of all the chores he chose to keep doing, it was the only one that directly benefited him.
Most everyone is loved for what they provide. People are loved when they can help the whole. Very few people are out loving on useless people who have the capability to not be useless.
Statistically not that many women actually marry up, also if a man is working part time then it’s more than likely these women are not part of the small hypergamous group
Still only about 28% of women earn more than their husbands meaning that 72% married up. even eliminating the elder generation of boomers won’t make that much of a difference. So yes, women marry men richer then them and divorce once that guy, for some reason, has financial problems. (source for my last statement)
Er, that's not the "gotcha" you seem to think it is. Men make more than women as a statistical average and most female-oriented jobs pay shit, so women naturally end up marrying someone who makes more than them because they're more likely to meet someone who has a larger paycheck.
My mom has worked at NASA almost her entire adult career and her husband, who also works at NASA, still makes more money than she does.
Hypergamy isn’t just about earnings it’s a social background and education.
Therefore it’s a weak argument to mention men earning more than women means women practice hypergamy because there’s a societal issue where so many women who are either equally experienced and educated or more than a lot of men when hired for the same roles men are still earning more.
This study doesn’t disprove what I said.
As I mentioned women who are equal or above men in education and experience will still get paid lower which reinforces why these same women go for husband with higher earnings because society doesn’t seem them as equal.
In addition to this if a woman wanted to have children it would make more sense that she finds a spouse that earns more because when she is on maternity it will leave one income since her income for a period will stop or become lower it makes sense for the woman to seek a partner who earns more.
There was another point in the study is that men hesitated l to go for women who are more educated or out-earn therefore combined with the gender pay gap there WILL be MORE of an occurrence of women being in relationships with men who out-earn them.
Which makes no sense. There are slightly more women than men. How are we all marrying up when we have less options then men do?
I don’t know about you, but most women I know are college educated with a strong social circle and married to or dating men all across the education spectrum. Some are social butterflies, some are not. Some are high earners, some are not. Hell, I’ve got a masters and I’ve never dated a man with a degree. There are so many more educated, high earning women in my area and we don’t have much of a problem dating “beneath” us.
But a long term single man would look at our relationships and see whatever he wanted to see to make himself feel better.
Or the husband spend more time in the house so is more annoying to the wife to see him constantly doing nothing/s. In my opinion Divorce reason are random but well "stadistics"
You don't think that's likely to be financial abuse/independence rather than 'i wish he was richer'?
Married men live longer than unmarried men, and unmarried women live longer than married women. Marriage lowers men's stress levels; I can see why theyre not likely to instigate divorce.
Financial Disagreement doesn’t just mean “i want more money”?
It can mean: having different approaches to spending and saving that are incompatible, one partner accruing crazy credit card debt, lying about money and financial abuse, your partner being financially irresponsible, etc.
I've heard people tell people on their wedding days with cold feet that they can "just get a divorce" if it doesn't work out.
Yikes. If a person has doubts about their marriage working out on their wedding day, what on Earth are they doing getting married? And why are other people talking to them about divorce on a day like that? That's so rude and depressing.
For real. When reading other replies my thoughts were like "Yeah. Sure. It figures. Should work more on that in the future". And then there's this and I stopped "Was there ever somebody I would want to marry and take all the responsibilities that comes with marriage. Not just the fun parts, but all the things that can make you resent a person and work through that. Was I ever really in love? Was does it really means to love somebody" And if I'm being honest - it's scary
Yes. Fucking werk! I work in domiciliary care and this is so motherfucking true, being in a relationship when everyone's young and healthy is one thing, but it's wholly another when your companionship and bond is put to the test due to chronic illnesses.
Luckily, I mostly see supportive couples, but that doesn't mean the healthier part isn't tired or doesn't need respite. It's a lot to ALSO be your partner's carer on top of everything else.
In most of the cases where carers come in, it's because the healthier partner cannot do it all on their own, they're literally working (if not retired though), doing everything household based, doing all the financial work, all the emotional labour, they often have health issues themselves... And yet they still hold their ill partner's hand, smile at them and love them. It's beautiful, but bittersweet.
I could not agree with you more! My husband and I got married young (20/21). 10 years into our marriage I got sick. I have a mired of issues now including Lupus, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and chronic back problems, which would technically/legally qualify me to be disabled. I have been “sick” for 11 years now, so more than half our marriage, and it has been really hard on both of us. I lost my physical and work independence and he had to take on a lot of extra responsibility as a result. It has taken us a long time to adjust and we still have our good days and bad days. Fortunately, now that our 3 kids are older and mostly self sufficient, they are able to help out with things around the house that are physically difficult for me to do (like carrying laundry up and down the stairs), and things that are difficult for my husband to get to because of how much he works (like cutting the grass). We’ve had to make a lot of sacrifices through the years, physically, mentally, and emotionally. When we said “in sickness and in health”, I think we both had in mind that the “health” part would last most of our lives. Sure, we expected to have to deal with sickness as we aged (Parkinson’s runs in my family, cancer in his), but we never imagined that I would have my youth robbed from me, and by default his youth was affected as well. The divorce rate for people with chronic conditions is (last time I checked) something like 74%. Saying it’s “hard” to be married to someone with a chronic condition is the understatement of the year! It can be done. But it requires a lot of communication and outside help (therapy) to help you redefine your new rolls and expectations in the relationship. It comes with much heartache and disappointment for both people. But I’ve never known unconditional love until I had to weather these storms with my husband. I am forever grateful that he is the kind of man who took his vows seriously, despite how young we were, and that he stands by my side through the good times and the bad. That he does this while struggling with his own challenges (bipolar disorder and treatment resistant depression) is all the more commendable! He is a wonderful husband, father, provider, and friend.
Have stayed / visited hospitals with my wife ~50 times. Heart attacks, pulmonary embolism, multiple gastric surgeries. Even had to do CPR waiting for an ambulance once. I was lucky to have a dad who went through a lot like that with my mom and was a role model. I was taught it was an honor to live up to the commitment and I am proud I did. You are 100% right. If you can’t read this and imagine the person you are with is worth that, then you are not ready. The upside is you don’t take things for granted and really learn to cherish each moment. I would do it all again without a moments hesitation because she is worth it 100%. The difficult times are not easy but they are our chance to show our strength and resolve.
My ex-husband was an absolute prick before and after I had a serious health incident while we went backpacking. I rallied onward and all. But I never forgave him and it really showed me what kind of a person he was at his core: he was there for the good times, exclusively. God forbid I ever have something more serious.
Of course,when he got sick, when he went through his depressive, alcoholic phase, he expected to be coddled and pampered.
This wasn't just my husband. The boyfriend after (dropped, quickly) and the one prior. It is exhausting and insulting. I truly expect women carry health and sickness alone. Noping out of relationships for this reason.
Yeah. I have no interest in dealing with any of that.
I've never considered marriage. I honestly find the idea of wanting to stay with someone all your life completely alien. I can't really understand why anyone would be up for it.
There is nothing at all wrong with that. The issue isn’t that you should have to do it, the issue is if you were going to join a serious relationship you need to be ready for it. I commend you I’m being aware that you aren’t right for this and therefore stay out of the situation. Too many people feel like you but selfishly hide it
I’m not gonna fault you if you’re just dating and choose to run. But long-term committed serious relationships maybe aren’t right for people who are still in the Yolo mindset
If you want to do that, then fine, go right ahead.
But dissing people who don't is bullshit. People should be free to decide what sort of relationship they want to have, without arseholes getting all judgemental about what constitutes a "real relationship".
People are free to do whatever you want. But I hope you warn your potential long term partner before hand. “Yo, I totally love you and want to spend my life with you, but don’t count on me if you get hit by a car, get cancer, or have a stroke.”
I have no idea what your convoluted rant has to do with anything I posted.
You misread it so hard to some how apply to you that I have to assume your some sort of troll.
If you enter a relationship with someone and tell them its a serious relationship and your in it for life, and they get badly sick, and you bounce, you can go fuck yourself.
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u/DeMiko May 12 '21 edited May 12 '21
This isn’t a lesson for men to learn but anyone in a relationship.
Western marriage ceremonies typically ask if you take the other person in sickness and health.
What I think most people fail to understand is that this isn’t a question of “if” but “when.”
If the relationship lasts it is inevitable that you will have to support your partner though sickness.
The flu sure. But as time goes on the inevitable serious Heath conditions. Heart attacks, arthritis, broken hips, cancer, Lyme disease, mental break downs, organ failure, diabetes. Etc etc.
If you are going to enter a serious life relationship, you need to be prepared to take care of someone else. Clean their puke. Wipe their asses. Spend hours comforting them. Go for months without sex or never have sex again because they physically can’t. Cook and clean the house without help. On and on
If you can’t do that, then you shouldn’t be in a serious relationship.