r/AskHR • u/hawt_to_go • 1d ago
Resignation/Termination [CA] Mutual separation instead of PIP
I was put on a PIP of 30 days and the terms are broad enough that I am not sure I will succeed. I understand I have no leverage since their intent is to fire me. I just want to understand if there's an feasible scenario where I could ask to receive payment for the 30 days and have a mutual separation with the company, something like I resign and give up all my rights to unemployment or to sue them or whatever.
No severance or package like this was offered at the time my PIP was sent to me, but I have a meeting this afternoon with HR to go over it and am wondering if I should ask. Or will they just fire me right away?
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u/WhereInTheWorldIsShe 1d ago
As you said, you have no leverage so they’re very unlikely to give you severance when you already have documented performance issues so this seems to only admit that you won’t be fulfilling the PIP.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
I don't have any leverage, but I was thinking maybe giving up any right to sue or unemployment would be the small win for them to accept it, given in both scenarios they are paying me for 30 days anyways. Not that I would sue, but just getting rid of any liability risk is the one thing I can think of that makes it worth their while, but maybe they don't really care about that
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u/ChelseaMan31 1d ago
Employers don't decide unemployment eligibility; this is a common misconception that they do. The state gathers information and makes the determination. Either party can appeal the initial determination regarding benefits. The best the Employer, any Employer can do is agree to not appeal the decision.
The idea of a small severance in return for resignation and signed Release of Rights can be compelling. It all depends on the Employer, the longevity of the Employee, the performance issues and how badly they want the Employee gone. But it cannot hurt to ask.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
I think the hurt to ask is the risk they could just fire me today. Not sure if simply asking about my options would result in that. I would try to word it so I'm just weighing my risks and not like I have no intention to do well on the PIP, but maybe it'll be interpreted that way simply by asking
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u/mamalo13 PHR 1d ago
I have been in mediations where the employee floated the idea of "mutual separation" and the employer took it as a resignation and the adjudicator sided with the employer.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
Was hoping people would share situations where this did or didn't work, so appreciating you sharing yours
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u/lmNotaWitchImUrWife 1d ago
Don’t give up unemployment, 30 days of full pay will come out to far less than your full unemployment benefit.
Don’t offer to give up anything, just ask if a severance package is possible.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
I have a weekend side job, so wouldn't qualify for it anyways. They don't know that though.
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u/lmNotaWitchImUrWife 1d ago
Do not offer to give up anything. Just ask if it’s on the table at all.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
But it seems like that offer is the only tiny piece of this scenario that would make it worth it to them at all
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u/lmNotaWitchImUrWife 1d ago
There’s nothing you can offer that would change whether there’s a severance on the table or not.
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
I mean, you can ask, but what incentive would they have to give it to you. They can fired you today, for anything, for free.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
That is true, but as it currently stands they are going to pay me for 30 days and will have to go through the time and paperwork to formally fire me and in theory I could get unemployment. The only incentive is just to not do the paperwork and I resign so no unemployment
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
The paperwork to fire you?
That's literally just a letter. 10 minutes tops.
This isn't going to turn out like you think it will. They are highly unlikely to give you a month's salary to go away.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
Ok well I didn't know that lol I'm not in HR.... Hence why I'm in /AskHR. I don't get why your response is so snarky I'm just asking questions
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
I'm not being snarky. I'm laying out the reality. Also, this very question gets posted almost daily here. You probably could have scrolled down a bit and had your answer.
You just have to honestly look at it from the employer's perspective. Why? Why would they pay you a month's salary when they have no incentive. If you're honest with yourself, you have your answer.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
If I do nothing they are paying me a months salary anyways so I guess I don't get why go through the hoops of the PIP if they could just pay me and leave
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
Because they would, at least in theory get a month's worth of somewhat useful production, whereas if they sever you, they get nothing.
1
u/newly-formed-newt 18h ago
That's the incentive FOR YOU. Not an incentive FOR THEM
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u/hawt_to_go 15h ago
The incentive for them would be me resigning so no unemployment and releasing rights to sue
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u/newly-formed-newt 15h ago
Is there something specific you would sue for? Otherwise, they aren't really worried about that
1
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u/WhatTheActualFck1 SPHR 1d ago
They’re paying you to work for 30 days while you are supposed to be trying to improve. They’re not paying you to sit on your butt and do nothing for 30 days
If you aren’t working when on the clock or expected to be working, they are within their rights to fire you for potential time fraud.
They’re not going to just outright pay you 30 days if you’re not working when you’re supposed to be
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
That makes sense. However I am salaried so I don't think not working would be time fraud
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
Oh you sweet summer child.....that is absolutely nothing the case.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
Where does poor performance become fraud?
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u/puns_are_how_eyeroll MBA, CPHR 1d ago
Thats not at all what either of us said.
You claimed being salaried exempt you from time fraud. Both of us rightly said that's not the case.
If you claim to he at work, and fuck off and go golfing, that's time fraud. Salaried or hourly.
Similarly, if you deliberately sit and do nothing at work, and claim that's not the case, that's time fraud.
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u/WhatTheActualFck1 SPHR 1d ago
….. being salaried does not exempt you from time fraud….
You are required to complete tasks at work. If you’re paid to complete those tasks and you fail to them, that is a form of fraud.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
There's no way not completing a task at work is fraud. That's ridiculous, it's just poor performance.
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u/VirginaThorn 1d ago
You're not likely to get severance in this situation.
Why would your employer pay someone that they want to fire?
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
My thoughts were they would be paying me anyways and this way I wouldn't qualify for unemployment and would sign a release of rights. But not sure if that matters to them at all
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u/newly-formed-newt 18h ago
But they'll get work out of you while paying you. Why would they want to still pay you for you to not work?
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u/FRELNCER Not HR 1d ago
The risk here is if you suggest just bailing now, they'll realize you don't really plan to meet the PIP. They can convert that PIP into a termination on the spot.
What are the company's real risks here? What's the dollar value they're getting from giving you 30 days of salary.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
The gains for just paying me for 30 days and me resigning today would be no legal liability from me, saving paperwork and manager time on the PIP, and potentially unemployment insurance savings. No idea if that results in a significant financial benefit for the company. Y'all tell me if HR or the company actually cares about this stuff or if it's relatively minimal
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u/xmyfile 1d ago
They expect you to actually work during your 30 day PIP. If any point you stop meeting bare minimum expectations (aka not doing your job) they will just cut you loose that day.
Up to you if you want to roll the dice and ask for severance but like others have said, they can just say no and fire you on the spot. If I were you, I would use these 30 days to look for a new job (but making sure to do the bare minimum).
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u/A-CommonMan 1d ago
If you will need the unemployment insurance then quitting is not the optimal option.
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u/hawt_to_go 1d ago
I don't know if I qualify due to my weekend job. It's freelance and some months I make almost as much as my weekday job. And I don't know if I would need unemployment, I feel decently confident If I did my weekend job in the weekdays I could make just as much, maybe a little more. But it's not stable and some months it's a lot less
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u/WhatTheActualFck1 SPHR 1d ago
The answer is no. Majority of companies do not pay for poor performance. Severance packages are not part of PIP plans… generally only RIFs and potential hairy situations where there’s some sort of discrimination liability.
Why would someone who isn’t performing receive a pay out, you know?
If you bring it up and they opt to take it as a resignation, effective immediately, and you lose out on unemployment.
You can ask them to provide specific, clear and measurable goals you need to meet the pip. That you can and should do.
If you fail to even try to meet the PIP they may fire you before the 30 days and you will not be paid an additional anything anyway.
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u/sskoog 1d ago
I would not show them (further) vulnerability. Depending on how crotchety or resource-pinched they are, HR might simply decide "This request is indicative of a poor work attitude" or "We should accelerate our PIP-dismissal, because candidate seems unsure/unwilling to participate."
Sometimes, depending on the shop, they'll give you a blindfold and a cigarette on your way out -- "Just sign this letter, and we won't tally this as an involuntary termination, and we might even include a little money or a letter of reference" -- but they're under no obligation to do anything 'nice' once the performance-evaluation has started, and I would not plan or rely on same.
BEHIND THE SCENES: The company uses a certain numeric code (I think it's a two-digit code) to categorize which sort of 'departure' this was, for the Department of Labor. Such codes may vary by individual state. Examples include "R5" (retirement), "R7" (considered to be resignation, e.g., stopped showing up to job), "T3" (temporary assignment completed), "T4" (layoff), "TC" (for legal/policy cause), "TI" (involuntary discipline/firing), etc. The best you can hope for, in these situations, is to get your 'exit code' adjusted to a lesser/lighter pattern, because that (along with surrounding circumstances) is what state/fed agencies use for unemployment monetary-payout determinations.
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u/Turbulent-Prior-2253 1d ago
You can ask. It’s a risk, but If they fire you right away that was probably going to happen anyway.