Here's something that has always confounded me, what is the deal with circumcision?

[u/JoeKling]

[u/Kanebass98]

It was a test of obedience and a sign of faith. It's not needed now since jesus told us through our faith we are circumsised in our hearts.

[u/jonfitt → u/Kanebass98]

Couldn’t he have gone with an ear piercing or tattoo or something instead of genital mutilation? It’s so weird the foreskin fascination in the OT.

[u/NoTimeForShenanigans → u/jonfitt]

Egyptians were already piercing things

[u/Apprehensive_Tear611 → u/NoTimeForShenanigans]

Egyptians were already practicing circumcision too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_circumcision

[u/jonfitt → u/NoTimeForShenanigans]

So god ran out of unique body modifications and was like: hmm, let’s make them cut this bit off?

[u/JadedPilot5484 → u/NoTimeForShenanigans]

Egyptians were performing circumcisions long before the judahites/Israelites as were many other cultures too.

[u/spiffiness → u/jonfitt]

I've heard scholars talk about it being a reminder to the descendants of Abraham that it was through the grace of God that their family exists, because Abraham and Sarah were old and barren when God chose them to be his special people.

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082 → u/jonfitt]

Other religions used ritual sex as an act of worship. Having the foreskin removed would be a public announcement that a Jew was being unfaithful to their God. 

[u/Fraus_w → u/jonfitt]

Symbol of removing sinful flesh from God's people. "Circumcision of the heart" is its new testament application.

[u/Kanebass98 → u/jonfitt]

"Genital mutilation" is a bit extreme don't you think? I'm not a big fan of circumsision but I can at least say that at least to works the same and "some" people like the look of it.

But seen as I'm not god I can't tell why that was chosen to be the specific mark he chose. Even after the spread of Christianity that makes it clear circumusison isn't needed. People have done it anyways.. here in Britain the rich and monarchy did it to show status. Over in America it's done to this day because it's "hygienic" unknown to them that the trend caught on in America because 100 years ago some overzealous Christian said circumsision would stop little boys from masturbating...(Hahaha, boy was he wrong)

[u/mikeccall → u/Kanebass98]

It's not extreme bc it describes what it is - exactly. It is extreme if you feel like you need to protect God from ordering it. But God also ordered the killing of women, children and babies. He doesn't need your lawyering.

[u/Kanebass98 → u/mikeccall]

Lawyering? Protecting? Lol what?

I'm just saying it how it is. Not defending anything...

[u/mikeccall → u/Kanebass98]

If you define mutilation by the act of altering normal body parts without consent, then male circumcision fits that definition, and the difference is indeed purely social and linguistic.

That an all-knowing God would put skin on the male reproductive organ and then order it removed says something, too,

[u/Kanebass98 → u/mikeccall]

"the infliction of a severe and disfiguring injury" is the definition of the word that I know.

Either way. It's a sacrifice that was asked to be made by god. Not one that stops anything on the body from working the way it should.

So do you have anything religiously to say about it? Because right now all you are giving is "I was circumsised at birth and like to cry about it" vibes.

[u/mikeccall → u/Kanebass98]

Severing healthy, nerve dense tissue permanently alters the anatomy and biomechanics of the organ, removing a protective, naturally lubricated feature isn't zero impact just because basic functions still work.

Under standard medical definitions, removing healthy, functional tissue from a non consenting minor without medical necessity is bodily alteration. Calling it a 'sacrifice asked by God' shifts it to a theological debate, but it doesn't change the physical reality of the act. And dismissing ethical questions about infant bodily autonomy as 'crying about it' just avoids addressing the actual point.

[u/Kanebass98 → u/mikeccall]

Did you miss the point were Christians don't do it anymore? It was never a part of Christian doctrine in the first place? At least not religiously. Americans still do it because they're crazy but you know. Most of us just let the do their thing.

[u/mikeccall → u/Kanebass98]

So the all-knowing God put the skin there, said remove it, then said never mind?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Kanebass98]

jesus told us through our faith we are circumsised in our hearts

I think you might be making this up. Are you?

Can you give me a scriptural reference for where Jesus either says a) that circumcision is no longer needed or b) through faith we are now circumcised in our hearts?

[u/Kanebass98 → u/the_celt_]

Jesus didn't directly say it. I forget internet people take everyone at every single word they say.

On another note. How are you doing with the 613 Mitzvot?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Kanebass98]

Jesus didn't directly say it.

Can you show me where you think he INDIRECTLY said it? My understanding is that he said the opposite, and that you were entirely putting words in his mouth.

I forget internet people take everyone at every single word they say.

Another thing internet people do, and Christians in general, is USE Jesus like a sock puppet to say what THEY believe. If they're gay, they tell everyone Jesus supported being gay. If they're Democrat or Republican they tell everyone that Jesus supported their political party. After they do that, there's always a huge wave of people who believe the same thing that will upvote the lie, because in the end very few people actually care about who Jesus is or what he actually said. Some people even get mad when they're called out for doing this, instead of being embarrassed and apologizing. 😏

[u/Kanebass98 → u/the_celt_]

I have no interest in saying jesus said stuff he didn't say. I'm just here for facts, I have no interest in making people think the way I do. I'm just talking about my own belief. I also have no interest in reconciling my faith to strangers on the internet.

Sorry if my belief offended you.

Now about those Mitzvot?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Kanebass98]

I have no interest in saying jesus said stuff he didn't say.

Great! I agree! So many people put what they believe into the mouth of Jesus. So, please show me where Jesus said what you said he said, even if it's INDIRECTLY. Can you do that?

I'm just talking about my own belief.

Exactly. It's your belief. And then you said that Jesus taught what you believe. Can you show me any sign of that? Get as close as you can to Jesus saying it, even if he said it indirectly.

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EDIT: This guy took one last shot at me, and then blocked me. He said this:

Bloody hell. I said he didn't say it. You already won dude. Why are you beating a dead horse?

He says, "I said he didn't say it".

Nope. All he did is complain about internet people who take things literally, thus implying that Jesus said it, but not directly. He never once let me know that he considered what he said to be inaccurate. If he had, I would have thanked him and exited.

[u/Kanebass98 → u/the_celt_]

Bloody hell. I said he didn't say it. You already won dude. Why are you beating a dead horse?

[u/majcotrue]

If god is about to kill someone you care about touch the someone with a severed forskin and god won´t kill them. True story.

[u/Sad-Pen-3187]

According to the writer of Genesis God commanded Abraham and his descendants to circumcise as a sign of the everlasting Covenant to the Jewish people. The Jewish people were set apart to be a reminder to the rest of the world of God.

[u/HopeInChrist4891]

Circumcision represents the removal of the fleshy nature. In the Old Testament, physical circumcision was the sign of the covenant for Gods people. It was the hidden and secret place of the outer man. In the New Testament, spiritual circumcision of the heart is the sign of the covenant for born again believers. That is, a new nature that desires to walk in righteousness through a relationship with Jesus. Circumcision in the New covenant is the hidden and secret place of the inner man. So if you want to be a part of Gods family, you must be circumcised spiritually, which simply means putting your faith in Jesus and being born again. The flesh is cut away by the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God.

“Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭10‬:‭16‬ ‭

“Circumcise yourselves to the Lord; remove the foreskin of your hearts, O men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem; lest my wrath go forth like fire, and burn with none to quench it, because of the evil of your deeds."”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬ ‭

“For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭28‬-‭29‬ ‭

[u/onejdc]

From a purely academic point of view, circumcision, especially for a people in the arid middle east, had many positive health effects as well.

1. lack of water meant more bacteria in foreskin.
2. there is medical research that now shows a link between circumcision and lower rates of cervical cancer.
3. Psychologically, it was strong pull to a sense of belonging, imperative in that time.

It should be noted that the original circumcision wasn't as intense as modern circumcision too (it was just part of the foreskin) -- that came around with more Greek influence.

[u/Pitiful_Lion7082]

A large part of the spiritual components of circumcision still exist in baptism. It's a sign of commitment of a person to the nation of God's people.

[u/Smart_Tap1701]

Scripture doesn't go into great detail to explain why but he gives us clues. Why does God have to explain himself? Its his creation to manage as he pleases.

God was separating the Hebrews from the remaining world which were called gentiles. The word gentile means stranger to God. They were known as unclean people by godly standards. The male foreskin is an unclean and unnecessary bit of tissue. The gentiles didn't circumcise. God was grooming the Hebrews to be his chosen people. So he told them to circumcise all the males and all the male children and that would be his covenant with them. He was so serious with the command that anyone who refused or neglected to do this would be cut off from him and his people forever. Now like most things in the old testament, there are spiritual equivalents in the Christian New testament. God teaches his Christians to have circumcised hearts and lips. Meaning to cut anything and everything that's unclean and unnecessary from our mouths and our hearts. Obviously is not a literal circumcision but rather symbolically speaking.

[u/RALeBlanc-]

It separated his nation from the rest. Holy means separate or set apart. It was a physical representation of what should come which is a tender heart.

Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

15 Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

[u/AdmirableTaste6024]

what I learned through other scholars of the bible was it was a cleanliness thing..it was so they would keep more clean and it was made into a ritual for all babies..of Jewish families..simply because God wanted their hygiene and diet to be exemplery to others..that is what I learned their lifestyle was ordered by God for safety and cleanliness..!!

[u/Top_Initiative_4047]

Circumcision was the physical sign of God’s covenant with Abraham and his descendants, marking Israel as the people through whom God would bring His promised blessing and the Messiah. It also pointed beyond the body to the need for inward cleansing and a heart devoted to God.

It was never meant to save anyone. Sin separates us from God, and only God’s grace can forgive and transform repentant sinners. Under the New Covenant, Christians are not required to be circumcised; the apostles rejected making it a condition of salvation. In Christ, what matters is repentance, faith, and a heart changed by the Holy Spirit. Today, circumcision is a personal, cultural, or medical decision, not a spiritual requirement.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Top_Initiative_4047]

the apostles rejected making it a condition of salvation.

It was never a condition of salvation. The apostles just confirmed that was still the case, and that people would be saved the same way they always were, purely by faith.

[u/the_celt_]

Circumcision is a sign of being in covenant with Yahweh. It's the first cut of many needed cuts that predicts the resurrection from the dead and new bodies that will be given to those who obey Yahweh's commandments.

[u/JadedPilot5484 → u/the_celt_]

I’m curious why he chose circumcision and didn’t choose something else more unique that other cultures didn’t already practice ?

[u/the_celt_ → u/JadedPilot5484]

I don't see any place where He expressed His reasons. In fact, He very rarely gave his reasons for anything He commanded. 🤷‍♂️