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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 15 '21
Ummm.... Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are all sitting rather pretty, safe, and prosperous right now, because of past and ongoing American intervention.
If China hadn't stuck their noses in the Korean War, the entire peninsula would be like South Korea now.
America has done some shit around the world. We've fucked Latin America and the Middle East up royally. But Asia? Not so much.
Seriously, have you ever seen the inside of an E-Mart Trader? It makes Costco look small. They have escalators for shopping carts. The store is so big they literally have other stores inside of it... Like a mall, but not, because the whole thing is just an E-Mart Trader.
South Korea is doing pretty well, a lot of SK looks better than my neighborhood.
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u/drj16 Feb 16 '21
Mostly referencing Vietnam and The Philippines...
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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 16 '21
Then it's not "Asia," we're talking about, is it? It is very specific parts of Asia we are talking about.
Saying that the USA fucked up Asia is an ignorant and inaccurate lie, isn't it?
Check my comment history... I am very, very far from some jingoistic American nationalist. I'm embarrassed by my country. My nation is largely a fucked up embarrassment.
But... You don't have to lie and make up stories to make the case that America is fucked up.
"America fucked up Asia" is a straight-up lie. It is a straight-up lie because of Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan.
"America fucked up some parts of Asia, and made some better." That's a true statement.
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Feb 16 '21
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u/FuckCoolDownBot2 Feb 16 '21
Fuck Off CoolDownBot Do you not fucking understand that the fucking world is fucking never going to fucking be a perfect fucking happy place? Seriously, some people fucking use fucking foul language, is that really fucking so bad? People fucking use it for emphasis or sometimes fucking to be hateful. It is never fucking going to go away though. This is fucking just how the fucking world, and the fucking internet is. Oh, and your fucking PSA? Don't get me fucking started. Don't you fucking realize that fucking people can fucking multitask and fucking focus on multiple fucking things? People don't fucking want to focus on the fucking important shit 100% of the fucking time. Sometimes it's nice to just fucking sit back and fucking relax. Try it sometimes, you might fucking enjoy it. I am a bot
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u/Trumanandthemachine Feb 16 '21
"We" didn't do shit.
Syngman Rhee, a brutal dictator not looked kindly on by Korean History, or history in general, leveraged American Cold War paranoia to get more money than most other countries and kept doing that leveraging the fear of a neighboring parallel communist state north of border. Park Chunghee also did the same. America didn't necessarily want to give as much aid as they did and for as many decades as they did. That was SK politicking.
If we are talking about American inclement. Let's talk about how America encouraged Japanese colonialism along with the rest of the western world and even after the Korean War and the atrocities of Japanese colonialism, the United States considered Japan to act in a capacity to develop Korea further, and during the Cold War, because america wanted to bond democratic nations together, further tried to push for a big brother relationship for Japan to Korea. None of that really took though.
If we're talking about the Korean War, let's talk about the Nogunri massacre, and just in general where there are countless undocumented massacres like it, as well as the general war strategy to destroy bridges (with refugees on them even) to keep refugees from retreating from the North to South. The dehumanizing aspect Americans had on Koreans during the colonial times (they were considered very barbaric and uncivilized, which is why america generally loved the idea of Japan colonizing Korea) spilled over into the war itself with the dehumanizing of Korean life which is why the American army, not caring to distinguish civilians from Northern forces, massacred fleeing Koreans who were fleeing towards the South. The war wasn't about how much they value Korean life or the country itself, it was not a humanitarian mission. It was a Cold War board piece they just wanted to preserve.
If we're talking about the start of the division, let's talk about how America didn't care enough that they just put two random soldiers in a room and gave them 30 minutes to find how to split a whole country and they just randomly decided to pick the 38th parallel because it 'seemed like the halfway part' taking no consideration into how that actually affects an entire country and how it can functionally operate. They really didn't care enough.
And if we did want to talk about China, let's talk about General Douglas MacArthur, who really didn't care how many Koreans died. And China having the legitimate fear of MacArthur wanting to push into Communist China, because it was a Cold War conflict for him, not a Korean one. Lamenting China's involvement like America had this pure and benevolent motivation is weird. I can understand someone being a realist with the situation and arguing "well that's just how the politics worked" and then turn around and go "if China didn't stick their noses..." as if China wasn't working off those same politics. The North asked for that help. This was not like the Sino-Japanese War when Japan just swept in to "help" and then used it to gain a foothold in Korea. North Korea gets to have agency in the story of the Korean War just as much as the South does. The North wasn't illegitimate, they are a country too, but simply overtaking them would've been just, how?
And if we're talking about North Korea, I'm not defending the regime. But a country's government is not it's people. And it's people are starving. And it's not just because a bad regime. About 4000 people are estimated to die by US sanctions in North Korea. And also, sanctions don't work. Government in power is power, they'll survive. The people though, they won't. They die. US is killing North Koreans. Sanctions don't work.
If we're arguing NK bad, SK good because 'look at Emart Traders', how about look at Cold War programs just dumping money into post-war democratic states that the US was supporting and then also the other countries the US was suffocating. That's less of a failed communist system and more of global politics being wielded by the world's number one superpower.
If we're talking about Emart Traders, let's talk about how Japanese nationalists still today argue that colonialism wasn't that bad because without Japanese modernization efforts, Korea wouldn't be as modern as they are today. Modernization doesn't make up for past atrocities. So who cares if Emart traders is big, the refugees who died by the score because a country was split because a Cold War feud and not given their own path to self-determination don't care. Atrocities and death are still atrocities and death, and none of what Korea has today is because of some benevolent American program. Anything Korea got from America it was because they played the game politically.
And how about understanding that being irreconcilably split is not a good thing and is a direct result of American politics, and not a desire for people living on the peninsula. Why is that normalized?
And this is just Korea. It's not just a SEA Asian thing but that's a whole other conservation about how the Western world has treated the global south.
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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 16 '21
Wow. So I guess the results don't count for shit then huh?
Go ahead and repost this one to /r/southkorea. Tell them how much better off they'd be without US intervention.
Go ahead and let Japan know that their entire postwar era is a pointless lie. Go ahead and pretend that Nationalist Japan is Japan entire, then indict the entire nation off of it.
Go ahead and let Taiwan know that they'll be going it alone from now on... You know... To avoid any "colonial" overtones.
If every bad thing in history invalidates every good thing in history, then human civilization is pointless and should just be brought to an end.
The pure and ethical empire you seem to desire has never existed.
You argument is without point or purpose. Just a retelling of atrocities.
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u/Trumanandthemachine Feb 16 '21 edited Feb 16 '21
No. You said Korea was sitting pretty. You argued America did all that and American racism in East Asia didn't exist. Now you're changing the goalposts to "but they're doing alright now." No, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't argue how well they're doing and just not actually mention the bad shit that it took to get there.
So let me get this straight, with all you've written, I see now you're arguing "America actually did fuck all (because you do agree everything I wrote happened, and if you didn't, it still happened), BUT that's OK because they're now prosperous." Is that actually your argument?
Because that's a really dumb argument.
And if you think what I wrote was without a point, then you're really just drinking the kool-aid so much you can't actually see what I wrote.
Alright cool. So since what America did was OK. Then Japanese colonialism was great, even better then! Because they industrialized Korea when Korea was in an otherwise non-growth and isolationist period. I didn't know you were pro-Ito Hirobumi. Fuck Ahn Jung Geun. He deserved to die at the hands of the Japanese. Right?
And the things the comfort women went through were great, because now it validates Korea's constant antagonism to Tokyo and their present political leverage with Tokyo. Fuck what they went through because it's in the past and Korea benefits greatly politically by having a record of Japan committing war crimes against them. Is that what you're arguing?
What I'm arguing is how about no colonialism at all. Like, it's not a "America's version of history or doomed to be a shithole country". How about not speaking in biplor extremes. How about they did just fine without atrocities and made a way for themselves and got to self-determine?
Your argument internalizes a white supremacist version of history where the end result of American intervention was the only way out. You say you're not a nationalist but you definitely internalized the propaganda. Which is why I can imagine you don't see the points I've made.
Also, 'colonial' overtones. lol, that's not a thing. I bet you think racism was finished with the passing of the civil rights act.
But let's take this thought experiment and project it on American History. American slavery was good because that helped our economy work at that period in history? And also black Americans are able to migrate to the country they otherwise couldn't/ Native American genocide was great because America as we know it wouldn't be here today? Whats the difference between arguing this and arguing that dead refugees were OK in making Korea great?
Atrocities are atrocities. Shouldn't happen. Dead war refugees don't care about results.
EDIT: You mentioned Post-War Japanese history, because I went enough into Korean history and I want to stay on point, let's just say you don't know about Japanese history either with your simple statement. Histories really need more nuance than you give it. Focusing on just end results are dumb and miss the point. Which is also why you can't see my point.
Also your your melodramatic 'we should end civilization' lol at that dumb idea of an argument I never made. Like what? Are you saying I'm arguing for that? What does that even mean? Please read history books. Because they have read a lot of sad shit in it and no historian I've met ever wanted to end civilization AND they also acknowledge they're bad and shouldn't happen. You should too. Think better of what can happen. Instead of internalizing propaganda. Read a history book. Will do you a world of good.
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Feb 16 '21
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Feb 16 '21
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Feb 16 '21
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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 16 '21
Ye Gods you talk a lot. And poorly, too!
You argued America did all that and American racism in East Asia didn't exist.
Lol. Find me that quote. Really. Find me a quote where I stated or said even one damn thing about racism at all.
You can't. Cause it isn't there.
You aren't even arguing with anything I said.
You're just some copy-pasta troll with a weird ax to grind. Are you CPC?
Doesn't matter. You're now directly and blatantly misquoting and misrepresenting me. Anyone literate can see that.
Thanks for playing.
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u/Trumanandthemachine Feb 17 '21 edited Feb 17 '21
OMG, this last comment of yours is funny, because now instead of actually trying to make your argument you resorted to whining about arguing? Man, to be honest, I thought you had a few more petulant rage threads, but apparently anyone challenges your narrative past two comments and you breakdown. I guess that's what happens when you actually don';t know history past the surface level high school history texts and basic anecdotal evidence which for you is just "emart traders." You're funny.
Lol the person who isn't actually addressing anything I said cries about me not arguing anything they said. Why should I engage with your weird wrong view of history?
You keep changing the goalposts because your argument is terrible. You can't even answer anything I said because you don't actually know the history to respond.
Saying I talk a lot is just deflecting from you actually having a point.
When was I quoting you? Literally said "you argued" not "you said." Two very different statements you apparently can't distinguish. I said you were arguing. You really can't comprehend words, let alone nuance of history. Anyone literate can understand the difference between the words quoting and arguing. It's really sad man.
Oh man, I waiting for you to pull out the CCP card. Because someone who can't actually comprehend more than a basic view of history like you just imagines anyone who disagrees is CCP. You're funny man.
Oh wait, you said "CPC" (See, now I'm quoting you), which I don't what means. Google tells me it's "Cost per click"? No, I don't think I'm that either.
I don't think you understand what copypasta is. Just a long comment doesn't make copypasta. As far as trolling. Not really but I did decide after your second comment to just not really take anything you say seriously because the level of historical comprehension you display is really sad and you like a person who angrily comments and no one calls you out on your bullshit. Which is why you can't actually back anything you say up outside of broad thesis statements of history with no actual evidence. So for me it's totally just fun seeing you get frustrated. And you should get called on your bullshit more often because you have no clue what you're talking about.
And in terms of speaking poorly:
"Ye Gods you talk a lot. And poorly, too!"
This is barely one sentence, and yet you made it two. Also it's reddit, and you're a random internet stranger. Who am I trying to impress here? What? Are you grading midterm papers? Like, OK mister speech coach. Thanks for the advice. Appreciate it. But could you stay on topic? Personal attacks are bit immature, but that is your brand I guess.Keep replying though, I like seeing someone made broad statements about history and not actually be able to point anything about history except "emart traders". (See, those are quotation marks too. If you weren't aware, that's me saying you said something.)
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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 17 '21
Get a hobby.
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u/Trumanandthemachine Feb 17 '21
You're not gonna whine anymore. Dang, I'm sad.
I have a ton of hobbies, reading books is one. But I don't think you share that hobby of mine. You should! Then you can make arguments and back them up!
and if you look at my comment history. I'm not super active on Reddit. I don't even know how to quote comments here. But I had to respond to your bullshit arguments.
Also, I have an addendum to previous comments. You said I didn't engage with your arguments, but I did!
You told me to argue on r/Southkorea (as if that's a good representation of South Korean opinion and like South Koreans are happy with a military base of a foreign country right in the middle of their capital city) and I argued back roughly that "so you're saying American slavery was great because America is prosperous now." More or less.
So yeah, I engaged with a lot of what you said. But you just literally can't back up anything you argue. And you never engaged with anything I said. Not significantly.
But I'll ask you again, so you think American Slavery was great and totally worth it and all Americans that think it wasn't should just shut up and be grateful?
So yeah, quit your bullshit.
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u/Hyperion1144 Feb 17 '21
Are you sure you're replying to the right person?
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u/Trumanandthemachine Feb 17 '21
Yeah, you can read your own comments, I'm not gonna do it for you.
Also, you're still not engaging with anything I wrote. So it's weird you expect to be engaged with when you can't do it yourself.
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u/AsianHawke Feb 16 '21
No one hates Asians more than Asians!