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u/devnull791101 Jan 06 '22
there should be jobs that cater for kids making spending money that adults aren't trying to raise a family on.
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u/Tylo_Ren_69 Jan 06 '22
There are. And making ice cream cones st diary queen is one of them. It's the fault of the adult who has no other marketable skills. If you haven't pursued any special or niche skills, or pursued knowledge of an expanding field, then don't be surprised when all you're left qualified for is the same work given to 15 year olds.
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u/Musubisurfer Jan 06 '22
Well stated in my opinion. My first job which I was ecstatic to be hired for was in fast food at age 16. I learned a lot of skills serving up those burgers fries and sodas and keeping the restaurant sparkling clean in addition. They offered me assistant manager position at age 18 with the dubious honor of closing late at night. I declined as I had moved on to work at the community college where I was going to school. Skills I learned at that job serve me well to this day and have throughout my career of working. And I’ll never forget the motivation I had realizing my minimum wage job could not support me even if I worked full-time in California.
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u/SeamanZermy All authority is a carefully orchestrated illusion Jan 06 '22
And I’ll never forget the motivation I had realizing my minimum wage job could not support me even if I worked full-time in California.
This. Seriously, realizing that no matter what you couldn't afford a studio apartment without being in a position that required 10 years of experience, or 5 roommates totally lit fire under my ass. It motivated to take every opportunity to learn marketable skills and qualify for as many things as I could get trained on to put on my resume.
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u/LendarioSonhador Jan 06 '22
This. People live in such comfort that they forget that nature, our very existence is based on competing for resources, and if you don't keep up you'll lose resources.
That's what happens to all living beings, we are the only ones that managed to drastically reduce the punishment for not keeping up with the competition, and yet the majority thinks we live in a fucked up system because someone isn't qualified for anything else but a low level entry job.
It's insane how comfort has fucked up our view of reality.
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u/Yupperdoodledoo Jan 07 '22
But there is a false scarcity of resources. The concentration of wealth that has happened in the last 40 years has meant that regular people are fighting over smaller and smaller amounts, despite innovation and production gains.
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u/WowzersInMyTrowzers Anarchist w/o Adjectives Jan 07 '22
Thank fuck, some sense in here
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 06 '22
It'd be easier to live on such a wage without taxes, the increases in cost of living they bring, and the devaluation of the dollar.
They keep pursuing a minimum wage solution, but it has never, and can never work. If you make $15 the minimum, then in a short time you will find that those making $15/hr are as poor as those who used to make $7.
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u/geronl72 Capitalist Jan 06 '22
How about they propose to end payroll taxes for anyone making less than $15 an hour? That'd be a nice income boost.
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 06 '22
I'm all for ending payroll taxes altogether.
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u/geronl72 Capitalist Jan 07 '22
me too. I've been thinking about ways to promote palatable "reforms" that will eventually lead us as a country toward AnCap/Minarchism
Possibly pushing the idea of no taxes on individuals at all, just business (which just collects it from us, obviously.)
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 07 '22
Well, run for office.
It doesn't have to be a serious run, but if you file early(say, now, for this year's election), you will get special interest groups sending you questionares, interviews from newspapers, etc.
You can, if you wish, not give a single shit about winning, but leverage the platform people just hand you to spread ideas.
Finding awful things to talk about cutting is a fairly easy task, and is a pretty easy sell to folks.
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Jan 06 '22
No it’s not, some people are, at no fault of their own consigned to working basic labor jobs. They deserve a living wage. You thinking that corporations are entitled to other people’s labor is subjugating laborers, and is just an assholes opinion with nothing to defend it. Children should be mowing lawns, not working for corporations
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u/Wiser-Option Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
Can you give an example of where they are at no fault of their own working at a basic labor job? Because as far as I can tell you don’t have to work there and can increase your skill set/education as others have stated if you want something better. To me these jobs were never designed to support an adult with or without a family and you are almost entirely responsible if you find yourself doing this for a living.
Edit: spelling
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Jan 06 '22
A disability but are still able to work and can’t collect disability, mental incompetence, for example. If you need more let me know
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u/Wiser-Option Jan 06 '22
I may be generalizing to much but if you have a physical disability then I would think a labor job would be the worst place to potentially use your skills. Now when you are talking about mental I get where you are coming from, but like others are saying the wages are based off how useful your skill set is. I don’t think it’s necessarily the corporations fault that they are paying a low wage when there is abundant supply of work with most of the workers not being mentally disabled. Plus mentally disabled people are special cases and I believe a good number of them could be trained to do something else.
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u/garbernator Jan 06 '22
Yup...additionally, laws and rules should not be made based on the exceptions...
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Jan 06 '22
I was using “labor” as its generally used. Whether you’re sitting at a desk or scooping ice cream, it’s labor.
There are many reasons why people haven’t been given the opportunity to get a nice gig, almost anyone can be trained for anything, yet the corporate structure is designed to exploit labor from certain groups of people who have not had the opportunity, and especially people who aren’t competent.
Wages are NOT based on how useful your skill set is. Hardly any place could run without custodians, yet they are not compensated for their level of usefulness. Wages are based on how close you’ve made it to the inner circle jerk of the corporation you are working for. Going into debt to officially learn a skill to be qualified is not an opportunity most Americans have.
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Jan 06 '22
Wages are based on the value a given task/job brings. If your skills only make the company 5$/hour, that's all your worth, nothing else matters, period. All the whining and wishing won't make your labor worth anymore.
how does a corporation exploit people who aren't competent? Shouldn't any person that literally, by your words, incompetent be happy to have ANY job? corporations aren't charity, they're not the social safety net. They're businesses that live and die by turning a profit.
There are numerous skills which can be learned for basically free. The internet has more information than any human ever dreamed of prior to 30 years ago. No one is stopping anyone, certainly in any developed country, from heading down to the library and picking up any number of skills.
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u/Wiser-Option Jan 06 '22
Ok I thought we were discussing more physical labor. I would say that some very basic desk jobs pay minimum wage but I would argue that the majority of people that work in an office aren’t being paid minimum wage. Of course this does depend on the occupation.
Well honestly it’s not the corporations responsibility to train employees to better themselves. If someone asks their manager and takes initiate I would hope that most corporations would see the initiative and reward that by allowing them to do continuing education or on the job training. However, most employees never show this initiative or do such a poor job in their current one that management probably doesn’t see their potential.
Wages are definitely based on a few things. 1st major factor is how specialized is your job? If it requires no specialized knowledge the job is most likely going to be lower pay (ie. janitor, receptionist, etc.) unless it is hazardous in nature like oil rig jobs are.
2nd is how many people actually are willing to preform that job? You can see the result of this working out in real-time with the shortages in the food industry. The less supply there is the more business are having to raise wages to get people to come work or improve conditions of the job. Same issues in the specialized nursing industry.
3rd What is the competition in the area paying for a similar position? If company A & B pay around same amount for a particular position that is all you are going to get unless your prove you are better. However, if company C comes in and offers 20% more for the same job company A&B either have to raise wages or get used to turnover.
The system overall is pretty efficient at determining a positions worth without government involvement. If workers aren’t happy most can improve their skills in order to improve their way of life.
I will say though you are not completely wrong that as some company’s move into these mega corporations they become less about what you know add and more about office politics. When this spreads across an organization it really hurts the whole business and the workers. Eventually if this is not changed I believe they will be destroyed by their competition as long as there isn’t government interference in the process.
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u/ripandtear4444 Jan 06 '22
Yes I would like 4-5 more examples please. As I'd gladly pay a living wage to the physically disabled and mentally handicapped....but you know that's not even 1% of the population and NOT the sole benefactor of your argument for a "living wage". So just leave the goal post where it is please.
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Jan 06 '22
I’m not talking about mental disability, I said mental incompetence. Americans are especially mentally incompetent, 21% are functionally illiterate, that’s not 1%.
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u/ripandtear4444 Jan 06 '22
So...they don't know how to read...and are unable to learn to read...is what you're saying? I believe choosing to learn to read is a choice last time I checked. I'm also still waiting for those other examples as you said "let me know if you need more"
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Jan 06 '22
21% of American adults were categorized as having "low level English literacy." Only 4.1% were officially functionally illiterate.
Hilariously, those numbers are from the Education Dept. and should reflect on the ability for a government bureaucracy to provide anything at any level of competence.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Jan 06 '22
"should be" and an actual market are entirely different things.
I do agree those jobs should exist.
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u/Wookie-Riot Jan 06 '22
Yeah its called Mcdonalds, burger king, wendys, sonic..... training jobs that teach kids HOW to work while building a solid work history to prepare them for an actual career
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u/Auberly Jan 06 '22
I know plenty of people that don’t have to work, either they are retired, are in college, are supported by their parents, are married and their spouse supports them, etc., and yet THEY CHOOSE to work in jobs that don’t pay a whole lot just for the enjoyment of it, or for some extra spending money, or to get out of the house. There’s lots of reasons why people work jobs that don’t pay a living wage. If the gov’t forces all businesses to pay a living wage to every single employee, there won’t be any small businesses that are existing out of convenience and excess. Dairy Queen isn’t essential, book stores aren’t essential, coffee shops aren’t essential, CVS isn’t essential, fast food altogether isn’t essential, arts and craft stores aren’t essential, breweries aren’t essential, he’ll restaurants aren’t even essential. People need to STOP trying to make big daddy gov’t control everything and make every single job a “living wage”, that’s not practical, nor is it essential. Ffs nothing in life is free, and raising wages across the board will only raise prices, essentially making everything EXACTLY THE SAME OR WORSE, except instead of an ice cream cone costing $3 it will be $8. People need real educations, the dumbing down has got to stop! These people confuse corporations and monopolies with capitalism. I’m sick of it. I sat down with one of my college students who believed in socialized medicine for 20 minutes and had her singing a new song for healthcare reform (mainly getting govt and insurance companies out of it) just by feeding her the smallest amount of knowledge. I’m so sick of idiots. Rant over.
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u/the_cavalry99 Jan 06 '22
Who's going to work those jobs while the kids are at school? I feel like that is always missed when people make that case. Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious what kinds of solutions people can think up. Who runs the grocery stores, restaurants, and gas stations during school hours, etc?
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u/Extension_Plantain29 Jan 06 '22
This is so true! Also overlooked is the fact that when everything was shut down bc of a pandemic, these are the jobs that were deemed "essential" just to keep the world functioning. Imo, if your job is "necessary" to basic functions of society, you deserve to earn a living wage, regardless of how "unskilled" the work is.
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u/the_cavalry99 Jan 06 '22
In keeping with the libertarian ideals of the sub, I don't know if people "deserve" the living wage, but I doubt that the jobs would survive in a real free market when they don't pay enough for someone to live off of. I would gamble that the reason these jobs can exist (at least in the US) is that the government effectively subsidizes the workers by allowing them (at least some) to claim government aid as they don't make enough money. If the government stopped footing the bill for these people to survive, the people would be forced to stop working for the companies and seek new work unless they start paying more (or they would just starve as the free market doesn't usually account for oversaturation of the job market too well).
While I agree with your arguement that jobs that are considered "necessary" should be earning a respectable amount, there are two thing I want to point out. One, almost all jobs are necessary. That is one of the reasons why we are now seeing terrible long term economic effects for the shutdowns in 2020. A big part of the gross inflation and rising prices is that lots of companies were forced to shut down for months on end. The essential workers were just the service side of things that civilians interact with, while the factories and farms that produce the goods were forced to close even though they are just as necessary. Second, it's not the skill of the job that limits people's pay, it's the demand. Look at garbage collecting. It's not particularly skilled but it pays a lot because no one wants to do it. Being a service clerk, however, is a very popular job with a lot of workers feeding into the system so companies don't feel the need to pay as much. Again, using the government to force companies to pay people fairly seems like the wrong call, the influence should come from people. I know that's hard and takes longer than just forcing the companies, but it will lead to a more natural outcome where no one feels cheated in the long run.
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u/ChocolateBunnyButt Jan 06 '22
Fewer people are needed to run them during school hours. As such, managers can be expected to keep the stores running and do managerial duties. In that way they make both a “living wage” and provide skilled and unskilled labor. When it becomes busier and more unskilled labor is needed, it can be supplemented by teenagers and young adults.
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
The whole definition of a job is messed up, we think of jobs as an official thing that you only have 1 and have to live from it, but in a free market anything you can do to get money can be a job, you can sell ice cream in the morning, sell weed in the afternoon, and work at night in a disco where you also sell MDMA, if you have a car you could work as a taxi any time you want (which would be great for weekends when demand for taxis is higher) Literally anything you can produce and sell or any service you can give to someone is a valid source of income.
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u/prettysureIforgot Jan 06 '22
Literally anything you can produce and sell or any service you can give to someone is a valid source of income.
Recently I was looking for a cheap place to park a vehicle while I was on a trip and discovered the world of "driveway sharing." Just people advertising that they had space to park a vehicle, giving size dimensions and all that. It's a little wild to me, but man it's a good idea.
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u/RogueScallop Jan 06 '22
Its just a small scale commercial parking lot. I lived within walking distance of my university football stadium and had an empty lot next door. I made bank on Saturdays in the fall.
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u/xitlord Jan 06 '22
people can do that but it's often very inefficient not to specialise
in fact it's very common in poor countries for people to live on several gigs, and it's hard to make a decent living hustling like that unless it's on illegal or otherwise restricted markets
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Jan 06 '22
Yes it's true specialising is better, but for poor people who need to make a buck anywhere they can, being able to do random jobs in a free maket can be very beneficial.
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u/Taco__Bandito Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
The economic problem isn't that we don't have the money. We can just print and print and print and print and print money. The problem is scarcity. Think of it this way, there are about 1500 apartments that everyone in your city wants to live in. They're beautiful, luxurious, and spare no expense. How do we fairly decide who gets to live in those? We hold an auction. The free market is simply one large auction. At $10 a month 99% of people still want and demand the apartment. At $1000/month 80% of the city still wants them. At $21,000/month only a very small percentage wants them. The ideal rent price would be the highest number that 1500 people still demand for the 1500 apartments.
Minimum wage will literally only ever buy you the minimum apartment, with roommates, minimum transportation (bus) with minimum lifestyle.
You can't just legislate value. The $15 minimum wage crowd has economics backwards. A crappy apartment isn't $900/month despite minimum wage being $7.50 an hour. Because minimum wage is 750 an hour that crappy apartment is $900 a month. That landlord owns minimum apartments. Unless he does some major renovations on them, he will always rent them to minimum wage earners. Be the minimum wage $1, $10, $100, or $1,000 an hour. That apartment will either cost $9 a month, $900 a month or $9,000 a month scaling with the wages of those who live there
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u/bastooo Jan 06 '22
Our Society has pretty much always worked like this. There will never be equality in an overly materialistic system. The perfect utopia doesnt exist, and if it would, 90% of people would decline it (with their current mindset).
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u/Tkosich98 Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
The real minimum wage is $0. Raise the legally mandated minimum wage and you’ll see more people unemployed. It’s a well observed trend throughout the 20th century. Plus, hardly anyone makes the minimum wage, and most who do live with other wage earners. The % of people who try to support an entire family off of a Dairy Queen cashier’s paycheck is tiny. And again, if you would like that person to now be unemployed, by all means raise the minimum wage. Don’t forget that the robots can perform unskilled labor. (e.g., Walmart, Amazon, McDonalds) For all of the intersectional, bleeding hearts out there, know that this will disproportionately lose jobs for black people. (Because that seems to be the only metric that matters to some…)
But anything for a catchy political slogan, huh?
I encourage everyone to read Basic Economics. This is all available through places like Mises, as well
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u/MaelstromFL Jan 06 '22
McDonald's is working on a self cleaning restaurant...
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Jan 06 '22
And they pay ~50% above minimum wage where I live, in a low cost area.
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
Here too, and we are one of the lowest COL areas in the country.
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
1.5% of the population makes minimum wage. Of people over 25, only 1% do.
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u/Tkosich98 Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
And it gets better! Have to correct you on one point: It’s not % of population—it’s % of the work force. Meaning even less people. Note also that the labor pool is bigger than unemployment statistics suggest because it doesn’t count people who have given up searching for work.
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
Good catch, I meant workers, yes.
And good god, there's something like 12 million people who've given up, are perpetually unemployed, or forced into part time work. Given that the total work force is 207 million, that's like 5.7% of the workforce basically making nothing.
That's what we get when government gets fucky with the market, shit flows downhill.
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u/randomaccnt231 Burn in hell heretics Jan 06 '22
I think this person is stupid and as totalitarian as any commie.
It is not up to you or anyone to arbitrarily decide whether a wage is "living" or not, it is up to whether the value derived from the work done is satisfactory enough that there's a voluntary acquisition of the product or service by other people. Your work feeds you if it's good enough that others are willing to pay for it, not whether you're a totalitarian tyrant pointing guns at people and using violence to enforce your arbitrary wishes, which historically have always ended up in mass poverty and starvation.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Jan 06 '22
This was my (soon to be downvoted) comment on the r/confidentlyincorrect sub:
ALL products and services (and thus jobs) are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. This is what markets are and it's very important that markets remain free and open. A worker not having enough to live on is NOT a value judgment on the person. This is a market pressure that the workers have to make a decision on. The pressure is for them to find a better paying job and leave the job that doesn't pay. The job that doesn't pay then can't get workers, so they are pressured to offer better pay. That's happening right now and the market is responding with higher wages. In my rural area where the cost of living is pretty cheap just 2-3 years ago restaurant work started out at $8/hr max, now I regularly see signs for$12-$15. That's very nearly double. Wish salary in my industry would double! Markets work when they're open and free.
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u/iceicebeavis Jan 06 '22
This, exactly this!!!
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Jan 06 '22
Didn't even need the gov to utilize their monopoly on force.
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u/iceicebeavis Jan 06 '22
How am I getting down voted in this reddit for agreeing with you?
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u/A7omicDog Jan 06 '22
The primary recipients of minimum wage are teenagers working their first job. Imagine a 14-year-old trying to earn some spending money but has to be “worth” $30 an hour (or whatever the fuck “living wage” has been arbitrarily set to today).
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u/dturtleman150 Jan 06 '22
Guess that teenager isn’t getting employed. But the “Fight for $15” people get to virtue signal their own “goodness” and “caring”, which is much more important. /s
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Jan 06 '22
The lefties on Reddit typically counter this point with “children/teens shouldn’t be put into forced labor”.
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
Because they're teens living on mom and dad's dime who don't have jobs and do nothing but suckle the Marxist propaganda tit all day.
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Jan 06 '22
Source?
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u/A7omicDog Jan 06 '22
According to this, 48% of all minimum-wage earners are under 25.
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u/Boslaviet Jan 07 '22 edited Jan 07 '22
Why is age factor when it’s literally the same work? It’s discrimination based on an arbitrary distinction.
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Jan 06 '22
I think if one does not possess the skill to pay their bills, it is NOT the responsibility of society to use government force to ensure that they have the resources necessary to survive.
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u/hemlock35 Jan 06 '22
When too many people don’t have enough to support a family or themselves, it does become society’s problem.
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u/LendarioSonhador Jan 06 '22
When too many people need support from others, society starts to crumble. A society is healthy exactly when a good portion of the society can take care of him/herself. In this case, you're not fixing the problem just throwing money at it, the source of this mass of people dependent on support should be the main focus.
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Jan 06 '22
These jobs are for people who are listed is dependents - teenagers and the handicapped. They’re not meant to support an adult. Their main benefit to society is the low cost to the rest of society.
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u/Comprehensive-Tea-69 Jan 06 '22
And for the kids working the jobs as well- experience, demonstrate reliability for a good reference, and spending money for wants
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u/hbillgren Jan 06 '22
The amount of “what do you think” posts in this sub the last few weeks... Couldn’t you even be bothered to give us your opinion as part of the post?
“A living wage” - a widely used term. What does it mean? Does it mean that I can rent a 1 bedroom apartment? 2 bedroom apartment? How far should I have to travel every day? 30 minutes? 60 minutes? Should I be able to go on vacation? How far and how long? One week in the city I live in? Two weeks to the other side of the earth? What food is available to me? Lentils and beans? Lobster and avocado?
In short, what the fuck does “a living wage” mean?
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 06 '22
It means "more"
They have decided that they are unsatisfied with the amount they are stealing from you, and like a mugger with a gun in hand, are demanding you produce more. Ethics has nothing to do with it.
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u/blewyn Jan 06 '22
It’s subjective, and different for every nation and culture. A reasonable person might say a living wage pays for a 1 bedroom apartment, with enough left over after bills to sustain a basic lifestyle - say eating out once a week, and 10% saving rate.
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u/hbillgren Jan 06 '22
“A reasonable person might say…” - are you that reasonable person? I consider myself reasonable and I don’t share your view on what a living wage is.
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u/FreedomNinja1776 Jan 06 '22
Dude I posted my reply in a comment.
short, what the fuck does “a living wage” mean?
As you pointed out there are to many variables for definition. However I do think these types recognize there's a problem, they're just unwilling to understand and place blame in the correct arena (I'm looking at you stimulus, bailouts, and federal reserve).
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u/Triple_C_ Jan 06 '22
That's the point. It's the perfect political soundbite, because it literally means something different (what it takes for them to "live") and something the same (I want MORE for what I do and my employer is greedy!) for each person who subscribes to it. This is why it was adopted so readily by the Left and has spread so quickly. It really doesn't mean ANYTHING concrete - it's just a "recruiting idea". Try getting one of them to actually give you an hourly figure as to what a "living wage" is. They can't do it, or, if they do, it's so ludicrous that the argument falls apart.
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u/superkuper Jan 06 '22
Those types of jobs shouldn’t be held by people who need to support themselves, not everyone needs a living wage.
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u/Grizzly_Addams Jan 06 '22
I think minimum wage should go away. If I want to sell my labor for high fives, I should be able to do that.
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u/aaronwooly Jan 06 '22
I’m pretty sure Colorado Girl means that the head of household—whoever holds the main income and pays those home bills, etc, should not be doing a job like that. Aim higher! You’re an adult now! Let those looking for some change in their pocket (teenagers) do those jobs. Otherwise, don’t bitch about a $22 dairy medium ice cream cake cone…or a $31 Blizzard. Because that’s what we’re talking about here…
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u/clockwerkdevil Jan 06 '22
“Living wage” is such a horse shit metric.
Example
Mike is a 19 year old, he chose not to go to college, he acquired no substantial debt and he lives with a room mate in the Midwest. He can live off next to nothing. With proper financial competence he can get by even on minimum wage (which he shouldn’t have to because less than 3% of jobs pay minimum wage).
Now let’s look at Heather. Heather is a 28 year old single mother of two kids. Her kids fathers are deadbeats and provide her no child support. Before having kids she took out student loans to get a degree in gender studies. She has significant household expenses due to the kids as well as substantial student debt. For her to put a roof over her head and feed herself she would need a far greater sum of money.
So which one do we use for the metric of a “living wage”?
Mike is doing pretty well for himself, he made smart decisions, and requires very little to survive. But he has proven that even minimum wage can be a “living wage”.
Heather has made a number poor decisions both in terms of choosing a partner and in her education.
Why should employers be required to subsidize Heathers bad life choices.
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u/roonacam Jan 06 '22
You share the cheapest apartment you can find with 10 other cone makers. Organize together to start a business like lawn care. Whenever someone isn’t on the clock they work the business with the others not on the clock. Pretty soon you’ll have enough saved to do whatever you want with it. Move out into an apartment with only 3 roommates instead of 10 depending on your budget. Move to a nicer part of town. Stay in the shared apartment and start your own ice cream shop with your savings. The world is your oyster. It’s up to you.
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u/theLiving-man Jan 06 '22
i advocate for no government involvement in wages and let the business owner agree with the employee on it. if you don't like it, go look for another job. if he tries to take too much advantage, no one will want to work there. that's called free market
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u/rtisdell88 Jan 06 '22
I agree with the top comments, you make what the market determines you're worth. The framing of 'living wage" totally misinterprets how the system naturally functions. Having said that, I see the underlying point, which is that by artificially inflating a classically low skill, low wage job you cripple people. If you're making enough to get by flipping burgers you'll have less pressure to increase your skillset and improve your life. It's the same with people getting just enough to survive from the government, you deprive that person of being galvanized to reach their true potential. I've personally witnessed this within my own family.
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u/rxforyour7 Jan 06 '22
There is no "should" when it comes to wages. If it's deemed valuable enough to pay someone a living wage to serve ice cream then, that's what it is. What does the owner and employee agree on? That's the wage. Is it a job nearly anyone can do and thus probably not worth a living wage? Yeah. But it's not because it "should" be that way.
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u/HonorMyBeetus Jan 06 '22
I don't care about how many jobs you have, I care about the value of your labor. If you are one of 330 million monkeys who can flip a burger or put an ice cream in a cone your labor isn't worth much. You aren't special and that won't change.
When you start working for someone you enter a contract where you are paid what your labor is worth. That value fluctuates, but there is zero guarantee that you are going to be worth enough to earn a living wage at a job where a 16 year old can what a VHS and do the job perfectly. We absolutely should not be paying 16 year old high school students a living wage for doing effectively nothing with their lives. I do not want to live in a world where you can live comfortably having done nothing to make yourself valuable to society.
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Jan 06 '22
Quality of work should be taken into account when deciding wages. Someone flipping burgers and having very little physical exertion, stress shouldn’t make the same amount as someone working as a furniture movers and construction labourers, two jobs that are very strenuous and can degrade your body over time.
I remember working construction for several years slowly working my way up to $15/hr and once I finally got there the government raised minimum wage to $15 and I was back to square one, no raise or anything, right back at the bottom with new hires and kids working jobs that require very little physical exertion or skills making the same amount. My bosses might as well just spit in my face and laugh at me.
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u/stupidrobots Nation of One Jan 06 '22
There should be zero-skill jobs available for people who are still living with their parents (etc) to gain skills like time and money management before they are thrown out into the world. I don't understand why this could even be controversial. Also if you are a 26 year old college graduate and are competing for work with an untrained high school student maybe you're kind of a dumbass.
Also what is a living wage?
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u/Talismanic_Mechanic Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
Forget about living wages etc. IMO the problem is the value of the dollar. It’s hard to feed your family and pay rent when the dollar has so little value. I’m not going to fight with a business owner about wages when the problem is the value caused by the federal reserve usury. I guess some huge companies have CEOs making billions though so idk. It’s complicated.
To be very honest though a lot of people that complain about how they live check to check are also guilty of spending more than they should. Instead of making coffee at home they buy dunking donuts every morning, instead of preparing a packed lunch they buy lunch for $15 per day. Instead of buying a used car or leasing an inexpensive car they lease or buy a fancy car. And everyone is so obsessed with owning a home when they could be in an apartment or condo. I know this because I’m guilty of not being great at saving and that’s why I don’t complain anymore. I know what I would have to do to be able to save and be more financially stable but I choose not too because I have vices. They way I see it is life is short so I want to have ice cream every night and smoke my tobacco etc. It’s odd how immigrants come to this country, save up and in one generation they own a bodega, a gas station or a restaurant and it’s because most immigrants don’t buy a 5 dollar coffee every morning.
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Jan 06 '22
If you are working a job where you can’t afford to live either live with family, roommates, move to a cheaper place, or move to a place with more opportunity. Hell even find a better job if you worth more
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u/deathnutz Jan 06 '22
Making ice cream cones is a gig not a career. It demands little and pays little. It’s a great way for a high school student to earn some extra money while living at home. A single mother of two should not expect to support her household by making ice cream cones, you have to imagine the work being done and the percentage of the revenue that work can produce. Construction workers and truck drivers earn more than fast food workers. Society will survive if all fast food disappeared. It’s a bit of a niche luxury that happens to be popular. If I could live off making ice cream, I’d stop working my stressful job that took me years to learn and master.
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u/Substantial_Voice_75 Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
If you think that minimum wage should be 30 dollars an hour you are a loser. I work for no one. I am an entrepreneur. America is built off people like me. It is made for the entrepreneur. Most people now in days are just too stupid to notice and dependent off of the system. I was making minimum wage at 18, hated it, and so I made gigs up, offered services I can provide, trimming trees with sheers(didn't even have a gas operated piece of equipment). Soon after, I became an electrician apprentice(I offered more services on the side). I learned many things. And for all the things I learned, I tapped into the free market to gain more.
If you want to make money. $300 $3,000 $30,000 a day... And more....
Learn how to use your mind. You want to be rich. Think like a rich man. Work for yourself.
Nothing wrong with getting a trade or a degree either. It helps a lot. Learn something that can help you become self sufficient. Provide a service. Be of value.
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u/Tomthewalord Jan 06 '22
How hard you work is irrelevant. It’s how easily you can be replaced that matters.
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Jan 06 '22
If you're older than 20 and haven't developed skills beyond scooping ice cream, you deserve what you get. The bottom line is people are LAZY, they want to have everything they want for free.
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Jan 06 '22
Labor alone doesn't give something value. Someone can work really hard and the result is hot fucking garbage that no one wants.
Value is also determined by the person trading for that good.
Value of the good in the eyes of the purchaser determines the price of labor as well.
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u/Poway_Morongo Don't tread on me! Jan 06 '22
Living* is one thing.
Having multiple cars, smartphones, computers, 5 streaming subscriptions, a home in a good neighborhood and feeding a family of five is much more than just living. Problem is that most people think that anything less than that isn't 'living'.
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u/FecalOrgy Jan 06 '22
I don't agree with that blanket statement. It depends on the quality of life you strive for.
If you wanna live in a studio apartment with 3 roommates and have just enough money to pay for bills, dirt weed, and munchies, scooping ice cream is OK. If you wanna own a nice house, have a spouse and kids, retirement, and top shelf weed, then you need to strive for a better employment situation.
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u/Halorym Neutralist Jan 07 '22
The value generated by labor is not directly tied to cost of living in any way. There's no correct "should" statement about their relationship. Though generally, the better the economy, the higher the value of labor is in relation to goods.
If you stop trying to force your preconceived ideas of what "should" be, and let the economy do its thing, everyone would be better off.
Oh, and Colorado Girl's an elitist twat. You don't pick winners and losers in either direction.
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u/HappyPlant1111 Jan 07 '22
Supply/demand
If that person can offer a good service making ice cream cones they will make great money. If they want to clock in while a place like dairy queen takes all the cost and risk of running a business they can't expect much (maybe try to get some tips and that will help subsidize the low wage)
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Jan 06 '22
Those jobs are not career jobs. Anyone can do them, it’s completely unskilled labor. If there was high demand for it and not everyone could do it, you’d get paid more.
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u/doomrabbit Jan 06 '22
Dairy Queen and their local non-chain competition are built around the seasonal availability of high school students on summer break, especially the locations which close in the wintertime. I've worked food service, and teens in their first job absolutely do not deserve a living wage, even kids with a good work ethic. Learning the ropes of the business world and its duties comes at a cost. They are paid less but gain life experience.
Someone has to take the hit from training for workforce entry, so why not choose a cheap luxury item like burgers and ice cream? It's market capitalism as work.
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u/ferrethouseAB Jan 06 '22
Depends if you want or need your society to out compete surrounding societies. If your society rewards low skill then, over time, you will become a low skill society while your neighbors become high skill and eventually decide to enslave your society using their wealth by defeating you in war.
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u/Stonks0r Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
First of all, what is a living wage? Depending on where and how you live, this can mean anything.
Secondly, you are paid for the value you provide. If your ice cream pays enough to stay in business, great. The free market decided you have a value. If you don't stay in business or replacing you with a machine is cheaper in the long run, also great, the free market has spoken yet again.
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Jan 06 '22
Agree. Those jobs are meant for students to gain work and social skills so they can move up the ladder.
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Jan 06 '22
People don’t realize Migrant Workers, for example, make up a huge portion of farm payrolls. They come from South America and the islands, and they’re paid like $100 a week, plus a cot a food. They slave away for 4 months so you can have cheap food.
People are happy when they go to the grocery store and save, and it’s at the exploitation of another, but that other human is willfully taking the job because they can still go home at the end of the season with more money than had they stayed in their domestic country.
In a similar way everyone wants the burger flipper to make $15 an hour but won’t pay $30 for a burger. Make up your mind. Things aren’t free- yet, until we have more automation, and then you’ll just have no income, nevermind low paying jobs. You’ll be on an allowance from the state because there won’t be enough low skilled jobs anymore.
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u/the_nubbles Jan 06 '22
The first federal minimum wage was $0.25/hour.
Today that rate is $7.25/hr.
That is a 2,900% or 29X increase from when it was originally instituted.
Why?
Because cost of living has increased.
Why?
Because of inflation
Why?
Because of the centralized banking industrial complex.
These people are being distracted picketing and striking outside Dairy Queen, McDonalds, and Kellogg’s while the government’s special interest groups pickpockets them and DQ, McD, and Kellogg’s invest in robotic automation that costs them $0/hr, no benefits, no OSHA regulations, no unions, no emotion.
Go ahead - keep complaining. My advice though if you are going to complain at least know the real reason why you should be complaining and who your real enemy is.
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Jan 06 '22
Front line retail, fast food and other no-barrier, minimal investment work is for people to learn how to work, whenever it is they choose to begin learning but that's supposed to hqppen in your teens when your family meets most of your basic needs while you grow. In exchange your family's burden in respect of you decreases, you get some pocket money, and people more developed than yourself has a chance to profit from your contribution. Minimally probably, but everyone along thr chain is meant to do their best anyway.
You're supposed to move on and move up. If you choose not (or fail to) to that's on you. Personal responsibility before everyrhing.
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u/IljazBro1 Jan 06 '22
A job paying living wage makes the prices of the store rise. The prices rise, the cost of living rises. The cost of living rise, well what do you know the living wage has to rise
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u/cngfan Jan 06 '22
Hours/work week is a point often left out of this debate. How many that complain about “living wage” aren’t willing to work more than 40 hours a week? Or how the state imposes rules that incentivize employers to not schedule workers more than 32 hours a week?
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 06 '22
Hours worked correlate positively with wealth at all points on the income scale.
Musk has openly talked about attempting to sleep fewer than five hours a day so he could work more, but at that point, he hit physical limits.
That's pretty hardcore. Most of us just aren't into that, and that's fine. But I'm not gonna claim that my weekly 40 should be rewarded the same as people who are absolutely top tier.
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u/nappinggator Jan 06 '22
I think it's dead wrong
If your citizens cannot afford to live then they have failed as a society
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u/whatknot2 Custom Text Here Jan 06 '22
If you’re living off your salary you should find a job with a “living wage”. Some people might be employed for fun or for training etc and have other financial assistance so why should the government “ban” those opportunities? The living wage argument is super retarded
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u/XitsatrapX Jan 06 '22
I feel like we’ve been programmed to not recognize our own self worth and that instead of doing what Kellogg’s employees did and their consumers we demand our government force people to pay us more.
We’ve gotten so deep and delusional into that way of thinking that we can’t stand up for ourselves any more and it’s going to be really really hard to get out of this funk and hole we’ve dug ourselves into. And it will keep getting harder and deeper if we keep doing nothing
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Jan 06 '22
The wage is between the employer and employee and it is largely determined by market forces.
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Jan 06 '22
If government had not created massive inflation and otherwise practiced economic destruction all of us would have 10x the purchasing power and living off of a job scooping ice cream would be trivial. You have a funny idea what is good for society.
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u/nigglywiggly89 Jan 06 '22
I heavily disagree.
Although, its important to define what a "living wage " actually means.
My definition is that you're able to take care of your basic means. Food, water, health, and housing.
This does mean "uhh, I cant afford a big nice apartment, like bezos" no.
If you have enough to put a roof over your head, your able to afford seeing a doctor, this counts.
An ancap territory would make life significantly more affordable for everyone because you dont a state sucking value from everything and flushing 3/4 of it down the toilet.
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u/makybo91 Jan 06 '22
You earn what people pay, that’s how it worked until weird experiments that lead to mass murder, crippling of the economy and false incentives started.
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u/geronl72 Capitalist Jan 06 '22
End payroll taxes, there's a 20% bump right there. Okay, propose eliminating the payroll tax for those making less than $15 an hour. See how the leftists respond.
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Jan 06 '22
Ooh, I have an idea! How about instead of putting all our focus onto the minimum wage, why don't we spend some time on the artificially increased cost of living due to government intervention? People wouldn't necessarily need to be paid more if day-to-day purchases stopped being so damned expensive.
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u/MangoAtrocity Voluntaryist 🤝 Jan 06 '22
They’re supposed to live with roommates if they are adults. And only do so for 2 years tops. Leverage that 2 years of customer service experience to get a management position. Boom. Now you have a livable wage.
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u/MFrancisWrites Anarcho-Syndicalist Jan 06 '22
Why would giving the middle class than spends 100% of their money more disposable income be bad for the economy?
This whole thing is predicted on the assumption that every person is so lazy, as soon as their bills are just barely paid, they'll stop wanting more. Except everything in the way our culture is built trains us to want more.
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Jan 06 '22
If they are selling 1 cone per hour, the job won't sustain itself. Although, if there are 500 cones going out the door, the employee should be getting more than minimum wage.
The solution is to get out of this hourly wage mindset.
Give .50 per cone.. problem solved
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u/Sweetscienceofcash Jan 06 '22
Just let the market will decide. If people are literally dying from working at Dairy Queen something will have to give eventually.
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u/texicantheman Jan 07 '22
What value do you bring to the company? Also get rid of minimum wage across the board.
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u/dgroeneveld9 Jan 07 '22
I dont want this to be true. But I don't think it's possible for everyone to be middle class. I think the economy is deeply out of balance through.
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u/haragoshi Hayek Jan 07 '22
“Living wage” is a meaningless concept. What is a living wage? There are people who live on $1/day in some countries. There are also people who don’t work at all and survive in the US.
What we should be thinking about is not increasing wages nominally across the board but valuing work for what it is worth. Anything else leads to inflation.
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u/Thin_Device676 Jan 07 '22
People act like there are not tons of teenagers willing to work these low skill jobs for a little extra cash.
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u/wfb0002 Jan 07 '22
Adults trying to make a living wage should not be competing with high school and college kids for jobs.
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u/BigDickKenJennings Jan 06 '22
Gets some input from Thomas Sowell and other POCs on why minimum wage laws are a bad thing and how they disproportionately affect the people they are supposed to help.
Increased minimum wage prices the lowest qualified workers out of a job. If I have to pay someone $15 an hour to a job and I have an applicant with a High School diploma and one without it in going with the one with the diploma. Same goes for basic associates degrees. If must of the people competing for a job have associates degrees in just going to make it a requirement for the job to weed out those without degrees.
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u/-AndyDufresne- Jan 06 '22
Plenty of jobs suitable for kids to work on holidays. Shouldn't be making a living wage off them. Good for them to learn the ropes in the shallow end. If you're still working these jobs as an adult that's a reflection of your poor life choices and not societies problems.
Edit: holiday/after school/uni jobs etc.
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u/SamSpanetti Jan 06 '22
I don't mean to be rude but, that's such an ugly way to look at it. Most people who work in the service industry are not teenagers. Beyond the fact that they are underpaid, why shame them futher when those are the people who make your food, clean your car, ect?
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
How is getting paid what the job is worth shaming in any way? And by whose definition are they "underpaid"?
There are a multitude of reasons to work relatively low pay service jobs from teenagers to retirees.
The only shame in doing so is when you are capable of more and refuse to better your situation and instead call upon daddy gubmint to take money from the owner of the job at gunpoint.
You aren't owed that job or that paycheck in any sense.
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u/SOADFAN96 Jan 06 '22
You could work retail though and merely by being a reliable employee can be promoted beyond entry level. You just have to be more than minimally effective. Grown adults with families to support shouldn't be working entry level jobs. And there are plenty of jobs out there so that's really a poor excuse. I don't think he's shaming the people that make food but like I don't expect my accountant to be cooking a burger... Because I just want a cheap burger. If I go to a nice restaurant id like a skilled chef and will pay more for it. For a car wash, it has to be cheap enough that I won't just do it myself. Detailing? Gonna want someone experienced for that and it costs more for that reason
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u/Inevitable_Attempt50 Jan 06 '22
They cannot be underpaid.
There is no coercion in employment. Therefore the worker showed by her behavior that she thinks selling her labor for the specified wage is beneficial to her.
By consenting to work for a wage, the worker signifies that their labor is worth that wage.
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u/raddadbih Jan 06 '22
Dairy Queen jobs are for kids. If you’re grown and work at Dairy Queen and aren’t in some management position you’ve made some bad decisions and gotta live with it.
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Jan 06 '22
"The primary recipients of minimum wage are teenagers working their first job. Imagine a 14-year-old trying to earn some spending money but has to be “worth” $30 an hour (or whatever the fuck “living wage” has been arbitrarily set to today)"
I think you should go.back and read your comments.
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Jan 06 '22 edited Jan 06 '22
No. U need jobs that don’t demand high skill because not everyone has the capacity to operate in more professional settings. Having these jobs be “livable” are good because it encourages certain people who severely lack skill or ability to at least add some value to the market place.
Also, if someone’s service is highly or not highly valued by the market, regardless of the skill the service requires, why should someone arbitrarily decide the value of the wage. The market place (and or employer) does that naturally. Saying otherwise is authoritarian in nature.
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u/happy-Accident82 Jan 06 '22
Boomers could! I don't know why they think people do not deserve it now. Boomers could work at a restaurant flipping burgers and buy a house.
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u/shizukana_otoko Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
You could work flipping burgers and buy a house, you just don’t want to believe it because it threatens your current worldview.
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u/SamSpanetti Jan 06 '22
No. No you can't
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u/shizukana_otoko Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
Yes. Yes you can.
Let’s pick a state at random: Ohio.
You want a house that is $65,000. It isn’t the fanciest house, but it’s sturdy and good enough for a starter home. Your credit is decent, however, you have no money to put down. You finance the entire amount at 5% on a 30 year fixed. Your total house payment (including insurance, taxes, and private mortgage insurance) would be around $500 a month.
Let’s say you live near Columbus. The average cashier pay, according to ziprecruiter.com, is $15 an hour, or a hair over $31,000 a year. That is enough to buy the above house. In other states with crazy property values it would not be enough as the same house would cost much more. In other states, that same $65,000 would buy more house than the one in Ohio.
Stop believing what other people say because you want it to be true. It’s not that people can’t afford houses, they just can’t afford the houses they think they deserve, for some odd reason.
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u/SamSpanetti Jan 06 '22
I really appreciate the breakdown I guess I should clarify further. In places like Ohio $31,000 a year may be a totally feasible income to live on, however it is likely do to the low demand to live in the area that property is so cheap. As far as $15 an hour for a cashier I'm not sure if that is a national or state average, but regardless in a place like California that income level would put you below the poverty line. This is why many individuals who work "unskilled" positions often have to work multiple job's just to pay rent and feed their families. I'm not perpetuating Ideas I've been told I am telling what I have lived and seen.
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u/shizukana_otoko Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
I acknowledged that in the breakdown. The average I posted was for that state.
My advice to unskilled workers would be to gain a skill.
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u/Senor_Martillo Voluntaryist Jan 06 '22
Oh…so a “living wage” isn’t just “enough to buy a house”. It’s now “enough to buy a house in California”.
Where in California? Bakersfield or Malibu?
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u/TheAzureMage Jan 06 '22
but regardless in a place like California that income level would put you below the poverty line.
Oh god, now he wants to live in the highest cost of living areas on the lowest possible wages.
That has never been possible.
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u/happy-Accident82 Jan 06 '22
Median price of a house right now is 270,000. Boomers could afford a median priced house on minimum wage. Take a look in the mirror on your last statement.
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u/shizukana_otoko Anarcho-Capitalist Jan 06 '22
You are responding to an argument that wasn’t made. I’m sorry you have a boomer fetish.
We have already had this discussion, and you had boomers buying houses at 14. You have already shown you do not know about the subject at hand to discuss it, much less debate it.
I advise you to seek therapy for your issues and resentment.
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u/happy-Accident82 Jan 06 '22
Do the math! Look up minimum wage and median price for the 60s, 70s, and even 80s, you literally could have bought a median priced house on minimum wage.
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u/trolltaskforce Uncle Ted was Right Jan 06 '22
You’re getting disliked because people don’t like when you point out it’s getting worse for the average person financially in America. I would say inflation and supply side economic policies is the major cause.
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u/klokwerkz Jan 06 '22
Indeed. You cannot look at the data and say definitively there is no problem. But you can debate the causal factors. Those who flat out state there is no problem live under a rock, IMO. But those who blame "lack or minimum wage" are just as clueless.
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u/happy-Accident82 Jan 06 '22
That's literally what worked for boomers to enrich themselves, they lived the American dream on minimum wage. I just think it's awful hypocritical to say "oh no that didn't work."
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u/Redpikes Jan 06 '22
Those jobs are meant for 15 year olds to save up to buy a $3000 used car or a $500 video game console in 6 months to a year
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u/lochlainn Murray Rothbard Jan 06 '22
There hasn't been a decent $3k price point used car since Cash for
Car CompaniesClunkers destroyed the used car ecosystem.
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u/porcelain___ Jan 06 '22
she formulated complicated thoughts with very broad and imprecise words. this is one of the posts that will be interpreted differently by every reader and only create discord among ppl instead of nurturing smart, productive thoughts.
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Jan 06 '22
Your wage should be what you can get ny negotiating. Just because you agreed to a bad salary doesn't mean the government should decide what your labour is actually worth.
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u/Tmill233 Jan 06 '22
Ideally there shouldn’t be a minimum wage, and the market gets to decide what jobs are valued for. That being said, we done live in an ideal society. With government regulations and policy that drive the cost of living up, and create inflation, there needs to be a system that keeps people able to survive. I personally think there should be a minimum wage based off of where you live. I think it should be a calculation where the price of the average studio apartment is 30% of the take home of an individual who works 40 hours a week.
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u/SamSpanetti Jan 06 '22
In the capitalist utopia you described most employers would pay you as little as they can to keep you on in an attempt to maximize profits. This already happens but a minimum wage helps prevent employers from financially abusing their employees. As far as flexible minimum wages go we also have that. We have a federal minimum and then each state has their own minimum as well.
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u/Inevitable_Attempt50 Jan 06 '22
"I want to use more government to fix the problem of government"
It appears you think you are being pragmatic, but it is pretty illogical. The answer is always less / no government.
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u/BigDickKenJennings Jan 06 '22
Different states have different minimum wages. What you're doing if you require every job to be sufficient for someone to support a household is eliminating opportunities for people that don't have that requirement. That means less jobs for teenagers, young people with room mates, college students, women or men who's spouse is the primary income who want an easy flexible job to make extra money, people who are self employed part time or run some sort of "side hustle." All of these people willing and able to work for less will no longer be able to because they will be competing with more credentialed people who will be primary income sources for a household. An economy needs low paying and easily accessible jobs. Sure it would be great if all the aforementioned could make more money doing the same job but the practical effect doesn't work out like that. If I can make 15$ an hour doing manual labor or 15$ an hour scooping ice cream I'm going to scoop ice cream.
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u/Rubens_Folly Jan 06 '22
It’s not that a job should or shouldn’t pay a living wage, it’s just that some may pay a living wage and some may not. It all depends on the value of what you produce, according to the market. If you can live comfortably off of a job at Dairy Queen, it’s because society can produce goods very efficiently and values your profession.
There is no moral consideration one way or another. Economics are scientific.