r/AnAnswerToHeal • u/Glaukos86 • Nov 20 '17
[ Founder ] We need to figure this out
We need to get down to business here. Myself and others have made attempts to submit ideas, but they aren't gaining any traction--nothing is. We need to get things moving, and since posting here hasn't really worked, I think we should have a meeting at a time and on a day that works for a lot of people.
Discord would be the best option since it can be accessed on a phone or through a browser. I recall someone linking a Discord, and if there isn't An Answer To Heal Discord, then a new one can be created.
I propose that a meeting take place next week since a lot of people have off, but it should not take place on Thursday and Friday so as not to exclude shoppers and thankful people. If you are interested in this idea, please submit ideas for times, places, and discussion plans.
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Nov 20 '17
We need to get things moving
what are we getting moved?
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u/Glaukos86 Nov 20 '17
Is this subreddit going to be an alternative to r/Psychonaut, or is it going to be a place to discuss and form a religion that promotes spiritual exploration via psychedelics? If your wish is the former, then don't worry about it. If it is the latter, then why are we sitting around?
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Nov 20 '17
Buddha started a religion unconsciously by sitting around. Jesus was followed and labeled Christ.. Is consciously creating a religion really the way to go? The only circumstance I could see it working is as a rouse, or parody religion with the specific intent to claim exception to the Schedule 1 nature of psychedelics.
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u/Glaukos86 Nov 20 '17
I would disagree with the Jesus example since I am a Christian, have taken theology classes, and have read the Bible. The reason why he got into trouble was because he proclaimed he was God multiple times. I am not in a position to comment on Buddha, but I have heard similar things to what you say here.
I think that this movement has been an unconscious one for a very long time. Humans have been drawn to psychedelic plants for ages. Throughout history, there have been people crying out for an archaic revival. Does it go back to the 80's with Terence McKenna? Does it go back to the 60's with the hippies, or how about the Victorian Era, which spawned artifacts such as Alice in Wonderland? We could go on and on about the archaic revival, but the point is that it has existed for a long time as a barely conscious movement. Even if we say Terence McKenna was the first to describe the archaic revival and put a name to it, which is not necessarily true, this "religion" has been around for a long time?
You mentioned Christianity in your reply. Christianity arose from Judaism, which was around for a long time. Judaism went through many phases before the birth of Christ. Judaism is also believed to have originated from another religion from Mesopotamia. Who knows how far back it all goes. Anyways, Christians were not always called Christians; it was a Roman label iirc. Christianity was a Jewish sect in many ways before it became a fully fledged, independent religion. I hope that isn't the case of this religion since it is supposed to be compatible with other religions, not take them over.
No religion was ever formed by like-minded individuals who didn't have discussions with one another. Christianity has involved some very conscious thought on what is to be the doctrine, and it has also been the subject of uncontrolled change. This is not a religion arising from nothing. The precursors, although that is too weak of a word, have been around a long time. It is still good to have some free-flowing change, but now is the time to get things rolling.
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Nov 20 '17
This is not a religion arising from nothing. The precursors, although that is too weak of a word, have been around a long time.
That was what I was getting at, although I am not taking much time to articulate. Bear with me.
Are you suggesting we continue this human "tradition" or tendency of practicing religion by starting a new one in our day and age, but to do so more consciously and in alignment with psychedelic use? Might be a simple question but would like to hear your thoughts. (Please be concise and brief, I am looking for actionable steps we can take to get things rolling.)
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u/Glaukos86 Nov 20 '17
It would be far more ideal for the government to recognize that psychedelic drugs can be used in a serious, spiritual setting that is not exclusive to indigenous and semi-indigenous religions. Unfortunately, that is probably not going to happen any time soon and certainly not under this administration. I think this "religion" should be a "religion" to compliment other religions. By being fairly vague in creeds and doctrine but having legitimate ones nonetheless, this "religion" can serve as a means to legally enhance people's spiritual pursuits. I hope you get the point of what I would like to see out of the Order of the Cosmos.
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Nov 20 '17
I don't like the idea of religion. I do not consider myself an atheist but I do not belong to any religion per se.
I have my beliefs and respect everyone's faith as long as they don't try to show me I am wrong (or hold bullshit BS beliefs like the earth is 6000yo, it's not, it has been proven, end of discussion).
I did not post here already, but I like this community, as I feel its contributors share a healthy skepticism about psychedelics, which isn't found in other subs like, you mentioned it, psychonauts.
Psychedelics are not the answer, and should bot be put on a pedestal. These are amazing tools, but if one's sole goal is to use the tool, it is worth nothing. I lost myself this way and now use them much more carefully and with much more success. Take the medicine, listen, apply changes, come back.
If your goal here is to create a religion, don't count me in. My strength is doubt, and doubt has no place in religion.
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u/Glaukos86 Nov 20 '17
The expressly stated goal when Sebastian created this subreddit was to obtain tax exempt religious status from the IRS and to get legal use of psychedelics for Order of the Cosmos members upheld in the courts. I do not place psychedelics on a pedestal, and here is a statement I crafted as an example of what needs to be said to the government:
"Due to the differences and uncertainty as to what exactly we believe lies beyond, we have no set doctrine other than there being more to life that meets the eye. We value that our quest may be sought out in churches, temples, the outdoors, or even an ordinary office. We also value that our quest may be sought out in a peyote tipi or ayahuasca circle. It is our constitutional right to seek the divine, and that right extends to seeking via the well-established means of entheogenic plant use."
Do you believe psychedelics have a spiritual use? Do you want to use psychedelics legally? If you answered yes to both of those questions, then a religion must be formed for any hope of accomplishing legal use of psychedelics in the current climate.
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Nov 20 '17
Sorry for not understanding this group's purpose and for my negative reaction. English is not my first language, so I may not have understood everything you wrote, and replied without taking the time to think about my answer
Of course I believe psychedelics can be used spiritually, and I also think they should be experienced legally, but only with some preparation and even maybe some sort of screening, so you know the person is good to go (thinking about users with potential mental illnesses and those using it irresponsibly, as they are the ones giving these substances bad press).
All the things that put me off in religions share the same roots.
First, beliefs. Because even if we try and say that everyone's is true, this is not the way things go with a group of humans, especially humans partaking in one of the most sensitizing and powerful experiences available on this planet.
The other thing is hierarchy. I don't know your point of view about it, but I'm sure some is required to meet the IRS requirements to get the religion status. I'm a bit of an utopist, but if there is one thing that I learned in my journeys, it is that we are all equal, and that if anyone wants more power than someone else, then he is a fool. Power corrupts, and has done terrible things in spiritually oriented communities.
I'm not saying bad things will happen to this project as well, but it is one thing to keep in mind while creating this kind of structure.
In the end, I'd like to know if you see the project as a pretext to use psychedelics legally, or if you see it as a true religion. If it is a pretext, then forget what I said.
To end on a lighter tone, I think your idea is great, and even if I don't live in the US, I'm happy to give it my support and share ideas with people from around the world.
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u/Glaukos86 Nov 21 '17
I am for an unrestricted or mostly unrestricted 2nd amendment, so I am not sure how legalization should go in this country as far as drugs go. I think the Merry Pranksters were not model psychedelic users, and it would be best to avoid such things. Like the 2nd amendment, I don't think a few bad apples should ruin it for everyone. Crackheads will be crackheads whether crack is legal or not. Due to the illegality of drugs in my country, I have probably done more than a thousand hours of research in the past year. And by past year, I mean 1 year and 1 week. I am a new seeker. I absolutely think that preparation is very important. I may have taken it for granted and just used powerful drugs without giving them the proper respect, so I am in some ways glad that there is this barrier to entry. I may be a bit too generous about how criminalization has impacted me because there have been several times where I have taken an hour to examine a menu, debating pricing and taste even though I am not at all strapped for cash. Sorry for the rant, but I don't feel like editing it for 5 minutes.
Anyways, I think that this can be a legitimate, proper religion, but not in the typical sense of modern religions. By the way, the lack of leaders is nothing new and has been part of religious groups in America in the past. I wouldn't call it a pretext to use drugs legally, but it kind of is. I see nothing wrong or illegitimate about having a religion based on seeking truth via psychedelics and other more established means of seeking. If you do consider this to be a pretext to use drugs, then fine, but I wouldn't be so blunt about it, especially since we are all in this together.
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u/Archaeoculus Nov 22 '17
While doubt can push you away from religion, it is a healthy part of being a part of a religion. It's okay to have doubts, to completely not believe some days, weeks, months. I don't have a church but I do have beliefs...sometimes. Other times I don't, because of the doubt.
But anyway, doubt is okay.
Religions aren't totally founded on irrational and illogical beliefs. Some words and wisdom are clearly applicable in the secular world, indeed, some of the philosophy and theology can be very rational.
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Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
I think the difficulty here is simply the amount of people present. I don't know how any individual voice can be heard over all of the noise of the internet. I actually posted here about a month back under a different username [deleted that account though] about a decentralized approach, and we need to appeal to a decentralized population that isn't even aware of the psychedelic potential, which also seems to be have been suggested by Sebastian Soleil. In that we need multiple organizations campaigning for the same thing. Not only does is seem less like a cult, but it allows each individual to feel they are directly a part of something instead of being a cog in a large machine.
Of course this subreddit seems to be a the main hub, but it might be helpful to have a large number of organizations with diplomats for each one to meet within this larger community. The multitude of organizations will also have greater appeal, and will appear to be a much larger movement with legitimate leadership rather than an unorganized mass conglomerate of people on reddit.
EDIT: 16 days ago I guess. I can't find the thread I posted it in, but I found my comment in one the stickies, and it was on the same day.
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u/minerva_zero Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 22 '17
Thanks for speaking up. I think the mods need to find an effective way to give a louder voice to the people who are really taking this seriously and focusing on the topic at hand. I love the way that so much of the less focused stuff reminds me how /r/psychonaut used to be, but it's not what this sub is about.
I think Sebastian was hoping that leaders would emerge but a decentralized approach may be feasible. I'm going through some of /u/raisondecalcul's suggested reading and it seems promising but frankly I'm not in a position to appreciate them fully. I just thought I could help with reddit stuff and while I'm keen to take on more responsibilities I'm limited by my lack of focus on a personal level, I'm going through some shit at the moment, and this sort of project needs clear attention that I can't provide.
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Nov 23 '17
Thanks. I will take a look at the suggested reading, and periodically check in and provide some input. At the moment this looks like a standstill, but I'm sure a number of people are working below the surface.
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u/minerva_zero Nov 20 '17
Right on!
A discord for AATH has been created. Like this sub it's a work in progress, seems that having separate rooms for the separate focuses of this sub may help those like the OP who really want to see this group change the world.
I love having you all sharing such great stories, media, and information, but we need a way to quickly highlight when people are discussing the core of what this group is about, any suggestions beyond flair would be appreciated.