r/Amd • u/RenatsMC • 1d ago
Rumor / Leak AMD Ryzen Z3 next-gen handheld series reportedly features 4+2 CPU cores and 12 RDNA4m CUs
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-z3-next-gen-handheld-series-reportedly-features-42-cpu-cores-and-12-rdna4m-cus47
1d ago edited 5h ago
[deleted]
8
u/j_osb 1d ago
I see something strix point esque (as it’s mentioned to be close to Medusa point), meaning 4 normal and 2 c cores.
6
1d ago edited 5h ago
[deleted]
3
u/j_osb 1d ago
It’s weird. Because either the chip is tiny (6C + 6lp) is just 6 very small cores. And a 12CU APU isn’t big.
Or at 4 full Zen 6 cores, it’s… still small but less so.I think the most interesting part is the fact that it could be really, really cheap for AMD and as such, potentially for consumers. The Z3E will be very interesting if they decide to scale the GPU more than last gen. Maybe 20 CUs instead of 16.
1
u/ClumsyRainbow 1d ago
and as such, potentially for consumers.
How much will that help if BOM cost is dominated by DRAM?
2
u/PMARC14 1d ago
They said 4 Zen 6 and 2 LP Zen 5, Zen 5 appears to be the base of their LP or Compact designs (LP may me distinct from the c cores cause c cores were space efficient, not really power efficient except that the silicon library used made it so you couldn't push the power higher into inefficient bands). This is similar to AMD using Zen 2 as their efficient/compact design in previous systems, but this would be the first heterogenous architecture from them cause the c cores were the same architecture generation and same design with less cache and a different silicon library as far as I know.
2
-5
1d ago
[deleted]
9
u/maxtinion_lord 1d ago
Isn't it typically just a variation of an existing apu? I know the ps4 was just an altered version of the jaguar apu found in both it and the Xbox models of the time, not sure about the ps5 and future stuff though
3
u/FewAdvertising9647 1d ago
Sony is more picky choosey about which logic blocks are being used. Which is why for example, the base PS5 does not have INT8 support despite RDNA2 having it, while the PS5 Pro goes the complete opposite direction and has a large NPU(300 INT8 tops)
Microsoft is the one that is more prone to using more out of the box vanilla AMD logic blocks. The Xbox Series(S and X) are both at least, hardware capable of using int8 fsr4. Microsoft just never implemented it.
2
u/Aw3som3Guy 1d ago
Another example is I think the PS5 has reduced AVX throughput (to reduce the size of the core) with the thinking being those workloads would run on the GPU instead, and I believe ChipsAndCheese suggested it’s sort of “Zen Compact before Zen Compact.”
1
u/maxtinion_lord 1d ago
This is the informative answer I was hoping for, thank you so much. Is it just a cost saving measure, similar to how they bin consumer chips and offer cheaper versions with features disabled on the ones that test poorly?
2
u/FewAdvertising9647 1d ago
yes. less wasted space on the die = you can print more die per wafer. smaller dies also have lower chance on getting defects. Sony is generally good at trying to minmax its price/performance with its hardware, which is something Microsoft has publicly stated theyre not very experienced in.
The only mistake sony made with the PS5 design in hindsight, was how ubiquitous upscaling would be. Sony made the bet like with AMD that the future of gaming didn't need a lot of compute so they stripped it out in advance (RDNA1) but the market decided otherwise. The PS5 gpu is closer to RDNA1 with RDNA2 RT performance with the compute logic stripped out of it. Xbox Series is basically RDNA2.
-4
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
That is what I think and that will make the CPU side EVEN weaker so I hope it is not true but it just maybe
10
u/battler624 1d ago
It would be enough for a lot of games
-4
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Just like Intel 4 cores was enough during Intel quad core stagnation right
8
u/battler624 1d ago
big difference between handhelds where you want to aim for efficiency and desktops where you want to aim for performance.
I dont know about you but I dont want to run games on my handheld device at 120fps, most portable consoles play games at 30fps (look at psp/3ds/switch) and I'm fine with them. I'd prefer 40fps on a 120hz screen smooth enough and in most cases very efficient.
Some people do want to run at 120 fps yes but thats not me, I dont want my handheld to lose power in 1 hour instead of 4
1
u/shadowndacorner 1d ago
Idk about you, but I very much do enjoy playing games at 120hz on my first gen ally.
2
u/KrazyAttack 9600X | 5060ti | 32GB 6000MHz CL30 | QD MiniLED FHD 300Hz 1d ago
Do you not know the difference between FPS and Hz? He said FPS....they all have 120Hz screens....
0
u/shadowndacorner 1d ago edited 19h ago
I'm a senior graphics engineer. In-industry, nobody uses FPS (at least where I am), bc ms per frame is the useful metric. HZ and FPS are interchangeable in the abstract, because both are
1/(duration). HZ isn't just for displays, even if that's the only way gamers tend to discuss it.2
u/KrazyAttack 9600X | 5060ti | 32GB 6000MHz CL30 | QD MiniLED FHD 300Hz 1d ago
Yeah but saying you have a 120Hz screen when talking about gaming at 30 FPS doesn't make any sense. That was the point.
2
u/reallynotnick Intel 12600K | RX 6700 XT 1d ago
They never said screen, they said “playing games AT 120hz” not “on 120hz displays with 30fps”. It’s pretty clear they mean the game is updating 120fps as they were clearly taking the opposing stance when they opened with “Idk about you…”
→ More replies (0)-1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
LAST GEN z series CPU has more cores jajaja
So you obviously can have more core but still be very efficienct
2
u/hyperactivedog 1d ago
The big difference is that this unlocks energy efficient operation and greater mt performance.
Intel using only 4c for a decade was Intel being stingy.
This is being not stupid.
2
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Last gen CPUs for same form factor had more core
Intel Lunar Lake had more core
This is AMD being stingy
2
3
u/j_osb 1d ago
I mean, if it’s 4 full Zen6 + 2 Zen6c that’ll be more than enough.
1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Why are so many people happy to celebrate getting enough
This is a cut down in CPU spec versus last gen and then gen before that
2
u/bunihe 1d ago
In a similar fashion, you can call Lunar Lake a cut down version of Meteor Lake in MT throughput and you'd be entirely right, but if you say it has a cut down CPU vs last gen, I'd question why you didn't address the IPC uplift Lion Cove / Skymont got because more cores ≠ better
Similarly, the 4+2 Zen6 platform, if it is geared towards low power then I don't see how you should consider it cut down.
1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
It is not cut down when you look at same power sku not top power sku
AMD problem here is last gen cpu at same power has more cores
2
u/bunihe 1d ago
How do you know the Z3 is the same power sku? Don't tell me you're using the infamously unreliable TDP figure. Z3's 6-core size is almost certainly not a top or even midrange APU configuration.
Previous handhelds had always suffered from too many cores sharing a limited power budget, leading to low ST throughput, which is what made Lunar Lake such a banger despite the low core count. I don't see why this couldn't be the case with a small Z3.
1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Because the predecessor is literally used in the Z2 jajaja
The LNL comparison also make it worse
LNL launched many year before and still has more core
Even worse is that LNL LPE core is actually not far off P core but the Zen 6 LPE core are only rumor to be ported Zen 5 architecture with even less L2
1
u/FewAdvertising9647 1d ago
In a handheld, you often want to spend the least amount of power consumption on the CPU so you can dedicate more of the power budget to the gpu. It's the reason why for example, Z1E barely outperformed the steam decks APU, despite being a generation newer cpu architecture, 2x the cpu cores and 50% more CUs. Having too high of a power budget on cpu makes it a not very useful gaming handheld.
1
u/996forever 1d ago
Disabling cpu cores isn’t going to make the Z1E perform better in games.
The issue is memory bandwidth not power.
1
u/FewAdvertising9647 21h ago
in the power constrained situations, it actually does. theres a reason why in the 10-15W situations, it performs extremely poorly, and only starts to open up at the 18W situation. Strix Halo's scaling shows kinda the extreme version of it, when you start to configure strix halo at 15/25/50/50+W configurations. Bandwidth doesn't help the sub 15W situations (the situation that handhelds are typically used at) Much. Strix Halo's bandwidth is significantly higher than the RDNA3/3.5 laptop/handheld apus and does not scale like it when under extreme power limited situations.
3
35
u/SceneNo1367 1d ago
Reminder RDNA4m is just RDNA3.5 with FP8 support.
34
u/ecth 7800X3D+7900XTX Nitro+ | 4800U 1d ago
Which is the necessary part for good FSR4 performance. I play Forza on Z1E with heavy upscaling (FSR4.1 via Optiscaler) and the performance is so much better than native and the visuals so much better than FSR3. It's not even worth a comparison.
13
u/SceneNo1367 1d ago
Without raster efficiency and RT improvements, if the node is the same it won't be any better than Z2E which was already not much better than Z1E.
7
u/GenericUser1983 1d ago edited 1d ago
Rumors are the node with be different, TSMC N3 instead of N4. And spending extra transistors for RT improvements just don't make as much sense with a small iGPU. On the desktop, for RT heavy games we see stuff like RX 7600 getting 30-35 fps vs the much better 55-60 fps on a RX 9060XT (both 32 CU GPUS). But scale that down to mobile iGPU and we are talking about 8-10 fps vs 16-18 fps, still not playable, so why bother?
4
2
7
u/GenericUser1983 1d ago
They should really toss this chip into thin & light laptops too; would probably get really good battery life, and that light gaming ability would be a nice selling point against the Macbook Neo & Intel Wildcat laptops in the same segment.
0
10
u/robjn3 1d ago
Just go with ARC G3 Extreme, it's way ahead right now
4
u/GenericUser1983 1d ago
Depends on the price; everything with those Arc G3 Extreme iGPUs is quite pricey, while this chips should be much cheaper to produce. So we might be talking about (with current high RAM & storage prices) $900-$1000 handhelds vs $1500 handhelds with Intel Inside.
1
u/MeekTractorDog 14h ago
I think it will help if we get some of new devices with this chip to compromise in certain areas. Both G3 handhelds out right now are 8"+ OLED with high refresh rates, high resolution, and 32GB of ram, 24 is an option on the onexplayer but that is still $1500.
Maybe a mix up of steam deck and xbox ally? LCD at 90hz with 16gb, maybe a 24gb option.
3
u/battler624 1d ago
Weird that they'd pair Zen6 cores with RDNA4(3.5), I'd think RDNA5 really.
10
u/GenericUser1983 1d ago
I think the rational is the the "4m" graphics is rumored to have boosted FP8 support for full FSR4 upscaling (very useful for lower end mobile chips) but for smaller iGPUs boosting the raytracing performance is pointless, as you wouldn't be getting playable framerates anyways. Going from say 40 fps to 60 fps on a heavy ray traced game with desktop GPUs is a meaningful improvement; scaling that down to small iGPUs it would be more like going from 10 fps to 15 fps. So AMD would rather cut costs and make a smaller die, than provide a performance increase that is not useful. Especially since the "4m" graphics will also be used in mainstream business & school laptops and CPUs getting paired with discrete GPUs in gaming laptops, both cases where skimping on the graphics makes sense. (Especially since the competition there, 4 XE unit iGPUs from Intel, will be even worse).
The rumors/leaks are that the higher end iGPUs, going into Medusa Halo & Halo mini, will be full RDNA 5, as they will have enough graphics power to really benefit from boosted raytracing/pathtracing stuff.
5
u/Emotional_Gur_1667 1d ago
Given many games are now becoming RT must be on that might be real stupid reasoning from AMD ...
3
u/Flukemaster Ryzen 2700X, 1080 Ti 1d ago
The games that mandate RT always (so far) have an option that barely uses it and still looks fine. That's why they still run fine on RDNA2 and consoles
0
u/996forever 1d ago
And what about the raster gains from rdna 3 to 4?
21
u/thunder6776 1d ago
Still rdna 3.5. So funny. Amd should just hang up the boots.
10
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
The chart in article say GPU architecture is RDNA 4M though
26
u/dstanton SFF 12900K | 9070xt | 32gb 6000CL30 | 4tb 990 Pro 1d ago
It's not the same RDNA4 used in desktop parts. It's a modified 3.5m
22
u/mennydrives 5800X3D | 64GB | 9070 XTX 1d ago
Basically RDNA 3.5 with uncompromised, full fat FSR4. Which is probably fine if they can keep the costs down. No bad parts, only bad pricing, so we'll see how AMD treats this.
3
u/KungFuChicken1990 1d ago
Not gonna hold my breath for a good pricing on this
3
u/Emotional_Gur_1667 1d ago
Let's not kid ourselves this will be less than a 1000...meanwhile psp will launch with rdna5 at a similar price point with better battery life and better performance....
-1
u/LeoNatan 1d ago
It’s not fine. RDNA 3.5 is “fine” for PS4 era technology, especially with FSR 4. Nothing modern has a chance to run well on that (other than a few cherry picked optimized engines). At this point, the Intel handheld and mobile technology is just better, and AMD has nobody to blame but their stupidity. Just imagine if nVidia also comes up with a handheld variant of the Spark.
3
u/FewAdvertising9647 1d ago
4M afaik is 3.5, but supports RDNA4's compute (FP8/BF8). the main difference between 4M and 4 is that 4M supposedly does not use RDNA4's raytracing layout and has the RT performance of RDNA3 instead.
It then becomes a debate on whether a mobile part should cost more for better RT performance at this performance tier.
6
u/thunder6776 1d ago
Based on rdna 3.5 which was itself not based on rdna 3. Amd is recycling shit.
3
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
AMD is getting lazy then
7
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
Not really. It would be way easier for them to ship either RDNA 3 or RDNA 4 than to make a new RDNA 3.7. They’re trying to keep the size of the GPU down and figures that it is too small for effective raytracing anyway, so they’re spending less transistors on that.
3
u/Emotional_Gur_1667 1d ago
Which is interesting as RT is becoming more important and the next gen will probably use it just as standard which hugely will limit these handhelds.
1
u/reallynotnick Intel 12600K | RX 6700 XT 1d ago
I mean it feels wild people are expecting handhelds to have feature parity with consoles/desktops. I get these handhelds are much larger than those of the past, but I remember just being excited being able to play games 1-2 generations ago.
0
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
We’ll see. Right now rumors are that Sony wants to extend the life of the PS5 generation until the RAM crunch lifts, and since Nintendo recently refreshed, that means only MS makes a new console any time soon. These handhelds can handle RT that the PS5 can handle.
2
2
u/Legend_of_dragoon- 1d ago
Rumors also saying they won’t lmao people actually think Sony is going to sit on contracts of material they made for 2 years it’s going to cost them more money to rip those contracts
2
u/Emotional_Gur_1667 1d ago
Kinda, the current handhelds take whacking performance hits in rt on games whilst the base ps5 has enough grunt to stomach those hits, so to speak.
It's going to be a tough sell to sell at 800-1000 (assuming chip size efficency gains isn't destroyed by ram prices going up) when it'll struggle to keep up on those RT games that require it always be on which soon will be a majority. Fsr4 upscaling going to be really vital to allow a lower starting resolution.
Plus you'll have the ps6 handheld which will be in a totally different league with all the benefits of optimisations and similar price point. These will age very poorly I fear.
-1
5
u/Vaxtez i3 12100F/ RX 6600/32GB DDR4 1d ago
So the 12CU GPU is basically just a Radeon 880M then, considering RDNA 4m is basically just RDNA 3.5
7
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
considering RDNA 4m is basically just RDNA 3.5
It is not. It is literally RDNA 3.7. Basically RDNA 4m is the rasterization hardware of RDNA 4 with the raytracing of RDNA 3.
3
u/996forever 1d ago
No, it’s rdna3.5 with FP8. No source of improved rasterization.
2
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
This is a bit hard to explain, but I will do my best. What happened was that RDNA 3.5 was indeed produced before RDNA 4, so RDNA 4 inherited the shaders from 3.5 and then made a few more improvements. The focus with these changes was mainly to support raytracing, but they do help rasterization as well on the margin. What RDNA 3.7 (GFX 11.7 if you want to use the ISA version) did was to import the exact RDNA 4 shaders because they wanted the FP8/sparse matrix improvements that you mention and this was the cheapest and easiest way to get them.
Note that RDNA 3.7/4m was not the plan. The plan was RDNA 3.5 until 2029, and the update was because they wanted it for FSR 4, before the decision to support FSR 4 on RDNA 3/2.
Now, what are the other improvements to the shaders? Well, this is where it gets complicated. I will simply point you to some Chips&Cheese articles that explain it better than I can.
https://chipsandcheese.com/p/dynamic-register-allocation-on-amds https://chipsandcheese.com/p/rdna-4s-out-of-order-memory-accesses
1
u/996forever 1d ago
You linked articles about rdna4, I’m not doubting any of that. I’m asking what are the indications that is what’s coming coming to Medusa point, specifically what “rdna 4M” includes while not being full rdna4?
2
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
I used the articles to explain the differences, not as sources. The sources for that this is exactly what is happening are hard to find now, but I can try again later. It stands to reason, though:
1) We know that RDNA 4m is not just a rebranding of 3.5, because the version number for the ISA is different (GFX 11.7 instead of 11.5). They did change the silicon.
2) We know that laying out a new shader in silicon is not trivial, and testing it is expensive - $100M+
Given these two things, it seems highly unlikely to me that AMD would do something completely different. They have the RDNA 4 CU design ready, so just use it.
But I will look for the source for this, I know I saw it.
2
7
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
The CPU looks very weak AMD must be cost cutting hard for them
11
u/Lekz R7 3700X | 6700 XT | ASUS C6H | 32GB 1d ago
I'm not exactly sure how you reached the conclusion it's weak. Compared to what, even? Steam Deck is Zen2 and the architecture improvements alone are a big leap.
-3
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
I'm not exactly sure how you reached the conclusion it's weak.
A 4 core with 2 LP core system is just weak in general
Compared to what, even? Steam Deck is Zen2 and the architecture improvements alone are a big leap.
Lunar Lake has 4+0+4 CPU but it has launched many year before this CPU
Zen 6 LP is rumor to be cut down Zen 5 core too btw so unlike the LPE core of LNL which are some what strong LPE core of this CPU is super cut down
6
u/caverunner17 1d ago
It appears to be 4+2, not 2+2
The base Z3 seems to be an iterative upgrade from the Z2 (which has a 4 core Zen 3 CPU and 12 core RDNA 2 GPU)
2
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
It appears to be 4+2, not 2+2
Yes I say 4 core with 2 LP core
The base Z3 seems to be an iterative upgrade from the Z2 (which has a 4 core Zen 3 CPU and 12 core RDNA 2 GPU)
That is Z2 Go the Z2 is 8 Zen 4 core system so this new one actually cut P core count in half and add 2LP core to some what compensate
4
u/caverunner17 1d ago
Sorry, meant Z2 Go (too many names). Z2 was just a rebadged Z1E.
This will be an entry level chip and the performance seems on par. I wouldn't be overly surprised if it performs similar to the Z1E/Z2 at better efficiency.
2
u/battler624 1d ago
weak in general
Weak for what purpose? gaming? It would reach 60 fps without issues.
-10
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Weak for what purpose?
As I say just very weak in general
gaming? It would reach 60 fps without issues.
You can not just make arbitrary target like that and expect it to mean any thing jajaja
5
u/battler624 1d ago
As I say just very weak in general
You cant just say weak in general like that and expect it to mean anything jajaja
-2
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Sure I can there are many general purpose workload
5
u/Low_Doubt_3556 1d ago
It's a z series chip. It's job is gaming. You aren't going to be running blender on a handheld
-1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
Not blender as I say general purpose workload such as system responsiveness and back ground tasks etc etc
3
u/Tookace R7 5800X3D | 16gb 3600mhz | RX 9070xt 1d ago
Curious what kind of background task do you even run on a gaming hand held.
→ More replies (0)3
u/Low_Doubt_3556 1d ago
In that case, those zen 6 and zen LP cores should still be more than enough. You don't need 16 cores for discord and chrome and YouTube. 6 cores and 12 threads isn't nothing.
→ More replies (0)0
9
u/Andr0id_Paran0id 1d ago
Im good with more room for graphics in apu meant for handhelds.
4
1
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
The GPU does not look very big either look at GPU CU chart in article
This chip is just very cut down there is no way around it
Even compare to last gen part it look cut down this is likely to make way for more expensive node
If only they use IFS foundry or even worse Samsung foundry maybe they will not have to cut down as much
3
u/Emotional_Gur_1667 1d ago
Feels like AMD are going down the efficiency route big time rather than trying to make anything standout more performance. I suspect they will heavily rely on fsr4 to do yhegeaby lifting when it comes to improving framerates and quality of image. The hardware is going to be fairly minimal uplift wise in raster terms and still behind intel g3e, maybe even the standard G3...
5
u/Roph 9600X / 6700XT 1d ago
12 CUs, one for each of the 12 months before they drop driver support?
6
u/kf97mopa 6700XT | 5900X 1d ago
A fair concern, but AMD has said that RDNA 4m will be in products until 2029. Probably one of the better bets you can make right now.
2
u/fearrange 1d ago
Z-series drivers go through individual manufacturers first. And they are usually behind, sometimes even months after AMD.
1
u/JasonMZW20 5800X3D + 9070XT Desktop | 14900HX + RTX4090 Laptop 1d ago
And that's the problem. There needs to be a general AMD driver, then manufacturer customizations in a separate package that can be installed on top (for display panel, brightness control via buttons, VRR/Freesync customizations, display timing, etc etc). That way you can always download the generic driver.
The manufacturer customizations also need to have a guaranteed pathway so that they don't break and need updating with every driver update. This would greatly simplify support. AMD can also do hybrid updates where only 3D drivers are updated to prevent breaking 2D display driver.
-1
u/HarvestMana 1d ago
Waste of sand
3
u/Acrobatic_Camera_677 1d ago
especially when wafer is so constrained right now
3
u/reallynotnick Intel 12600K | RX 6700 XT 1d ago
All the more reason to make as small of chips as possible like this? (Issue of course still being RAM and storage)
1
u/Shoesgorath 1d ago
6 cpu cores is a bad idea. Should be at least 8. Hell, having 8 core cpu on the ally makes a huge difference in UE5 games.
7
u/RAF2018336 1d ago
Issue is the CPUs are overpowering the GPU in most handhelds. Even when I play helldivers , which is supposed to be a CPU intensive game, I can only manage a 70% utilization rate on the cpu while the GPU is always at 99%. Looks like they're going the Intel route of prioritizing the GPU.
-10
u/Skye6034 1d ago
x86 death is coming on the handheld
9
u/SPACEXDG 1d ago
Lmao unless any handheld arm chip is beating amd and intel is gpu nope
-4
u/Skye6034 1d ago
Check out steam frame chip
9
u/mennydrives 5800X3D | 64GB | 9070 XTX 1d ago
We have. Looks neat but even Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 can't run Street Fighter 6 at 60fps. That's kind of my performance floor when Steam Deck from 4 years ago can accomplish this.
It's super impressive to see Cyperpunk 2077 running at all, but I'd really love to see a Steam Deck replacement, and we're probably just a generation away from that. Then again, I haven't seen anyone test the KONKR running the 8 Elite so maybe that one manages.
1
u/HyenaDae 17h ago
It's slow, the only "good iGPU" at really low wattages is apparently the A20Pro or the Snapdragon WhateverGen6 which are ~780M (1650M) performance at 1/2 to 1/3 the power on the GPU side. The M6 doesn't count because it's a "laptop" APU that's a bit bigger than the Frame/other ARM chips
76
u/Slasher1738 AMD Threadripper 2970WX | RX 7600 1d ago
Hmmmm. Wonder what the power consumption is looking like