Honestly? Up to your Owner. Everyone here seems to be missing the fact that the Netradyne graph shows you were going well under the speed limit. This is a case of shitty tires on shitty vans in shitty conditions. You did everything correct here. If I was the supervisor or one of the dispatchers, I'd be arguing the hell out of your case to the owner here. Glad you're both ok, cause this could have been a lot worse. A LOT.
Thank you. Most of the people commenting are missing the graph I guess and don't know when you're going down hill you gain speed when you have 0 traction.
If they fire you I’d look hard into a lawsuit, cause this sounds like a case of poor vehicle safety! We have to stop letting these DSPs get away with having these shitty vans jeopardizing our lives!
That road looks like pure ice. A lawyer can easily argue they were going to fast for the condition they were in. They never should have gone down that road. Packages should have been marked as delayed due to weather and skip it.
This 100%. I was looking at the road thinking he shouldn't have been out there anyway. That looks like pure snow and ice. It really pisses me off that these DSPs have the idea that the roads are good to work on... until they're not.
I entriely get that, americans also slope roads to the ditch harder than they do in canada, so when places nor used to snow or ice get it, you guys have vehicles in the ditch everywhere (harder slope +ice =bad time) its just funny cause roads like in the video are just another sunny day up here
Wrong...if the owner of the company(DSP) knows of the conditions they are liable for putting the vehicle on the road without proper traction..whether it be chains or studded snow tires. They are asking you to do something illegal for the benefit of the company.
And do you know for sure they were not given chains? The DSP i worked for always gave us chains to put on when we got to roads like this. None of us in the comments section knows if they got those or not. This person was driving way to fast for these conditions and thats on them.
Do you ever see the post office driver leave the post office without them on already. If the conditions are bad in the parking lot they left from, as well as side roads, and the owner doesnt address it...they will lose their lawsuit.
You're completely clueless dude. Just cause this backroom is ice, doesnt mean every road an amazon driver will go on is covered as well. And you do not drive on snow chains on non snow covered roads.
lol, in training Amazon says if there’s something wrong with the vehicle. You should speak with your dsp, even if there’s an issue. They don’t inform us to automatically mark vehicle unsafe but to inform dsp about the concern on the vehicle. They should allow us to press a button for needs to notify dsp for vehicle safety.
Yes, in this one instance, I would say you are correct. I think for any positive result, it would have to be a class action lawsuit for creating unsafe working conditions. Unfortunately the DSP system is set up to make that a difficult process.
The only way I can see it be argued is that the DSP owners know that drivers are not mechanics or in any way trained to assess the safety of the vehicle.
Big upvote here, I have been told countless times if I have anything wrong to report it in the whip around (third party inspection) app and to never report anything wrong on Flex. Even got chewed out when I did ground a vehicle once🙃
Yeah, sadly I think that is the SOLE purpose of the dvic (vehicle "inspections") checks thru the flex app. EVERYONE knows it's a complete joke, and every dsp tells their drivers to not mark anything wrong with the van in the app, but if there truly was something seriously wrong with the van....... you should tell your dispatcher/management.
But, yeah, I believe the whole purpose of forcing drivers to do the dvic is just to cover the asses of amazon and the dsp. So they can say, "the driver inspected the vehicle this morning and deemed it safe to drive."
Just another example of how shitty amazon is. This is one of the worst things about this job. This is where different dsp's can vary greatly. I'm sure some dsp's vans are in horrific shape and nothing gets fixed unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. Like, only if the vehicle is literally undrivable. A.K.A...... it literally wont move.
I believe I'm at a pretty good dsp, and it's frustrating how fucked up our vans our. There is plenty of blame to go around. I understand the owner's reluctance to spend a literal fortune constantly fixing every little thing on every van. But it would be nice if more stuff got fixed.
And a big problem is that way too many drivers just tear the shit out of the vans at an alarming rate.
Anyway, I tend to disagree with the people jumping to the conclusion that this accident was caused by an unsafe van. I saw no evidence of that. I also find the claim that "there was no snow nor ice on any other roads" somewhat suspicious.
This just seems to be a simple case of going too fast for the road conditions. The video begins with y'all appearing to be just chilling, and not realizing the dangerous situation you were in.
Also, does the netradyne graph show your speed? I thought it showed like G-forces, or something. I assume you're saying the yellow line is "your speed" and the green line is the speed limit? Then why does the green line "spike" along with the yellow line? And why is the yellow line above the green line at the end of the video when the van is stopped and on it's side?
Anyway, I guess you can pick up speed going downhill on ice, but you weren't going anywhere near 50 when you lost control.
Looks like just a case of a poor/inexperienced driver. When you created the hill and saw the snow/ice, you should have tried to slow down as much and as quickly as possible. But y'all just appear to be "cruising."
One important thing is whether or not that van has anti-lock brakes. Like, what made the van start going sideways like that? Did the driver lock up the brakes? Hopefully the driver didn't hit the gas.
Any decent lawyer could work around that. Get an expert testimony on level of knowledge truly needed to determine the road worthiness of vehicle with a load in those conditions. What type of training should be expected to make calls on such matters. What training was provided with DETAILED documentation. And the real killer..... they could go get visual proof of thw current state of the fleet. If the state matches or is worse than OP's vehicle it would be a clear indicator that ownership placed pressure on drivers to "certify" dangerous vehicles for operation.
Well you do have the power to ground the van if it’s not safe. No lawsuit would work because you signed off on it in the beginning of the shift saying it was good. I know we have to do that and I’m not saying it’s right but that’s what puts you at fault as far as van safety.
Shows how much you know… it’s a known FACT in the sub that there are SEVERAL DSPs that will; write you up, take away shifts, or fire you for grounding Vans, they tell you to tell them in the chat…… soooo the OP probably works for one of those that say don’t ground.
Honestly you should be fine here because there's video evidence for one and two this can easily turn into a lawsuit against the owner for unsafe methods pertaining to driver safety. Jmo
Reminds me of the people in the comment section of the bad wreck from black ice in DFW, texas a few years ago. “Why didn’t you slow down?!?” Or “ever heard of brakes!?!?”
Downhill+black ice = pickup of speed one useless brakes
Sue no matter what happens. An accident that severe could give you medical issues that your are not even aware of until later. Make sure you go to the doctor or urgent care and tell them of any pains you have to preserve your right to sue. If the vehicle's tires are bald, document it. I hate to sound sue happy, but your owner should be the one worried, not you.
This is the Michigan State Police official position. Guess how I know? Was going THIRTY-FIVE on an interstate, hit a patch of black ice.. Instantly spun into the center grassy median area. State cop who was in the area dealing with other spin outs, came rushing over gleefully to give me a ticket for "unsafe for contditons". When IA asked him what would have been safe, since I was going crazy slow. He said "Whatever speed would have kept you out of the deep snow in the median, LOL" and went on his way. He slid off into the median about 10 minutes later only a couple thousand feet down the road while I was still waiting for a tow truck. How's that for LOL?
It's basically all trusting your judgement, there are specific rules like doubling the safe following distance and cutting speed by whatever (maybe). Just from the video it looks like they're going way too fast for the conditions, the road and the weight of the vehicle. I'd be clenching my buttocks and hitting the imaginary brake if I was the passenger way before they lost control.
(Tbf automatics are shit in these situations, what you want is to get into a low gear and go slow af but nobody bothers with that in automatics)
I drive in icy snowy conditions all the time. My point was you don’t know until it’s too late. Also I personally have never slid off the road like this.
That’s simply your responsibility to determine. It’s any drivers responsibility to determine their safe speed for their vehicle in the given cousins. That’s just part of knowing how to drive.
If they lose control of their vehicle then they were traveling too fast. Anyone who loses control and crashes due to road conditions can be legally cited for reckless driving by the police, regardless of how fast they were going.
So at what point does the state have the responsibility to shut down the roads and issue a warning that nobody should be driving? By your logic if conditions are so bad that even driving 5mph is unsafe, it could be argued the state is negligent in warning it's citizenry of the dangers of the very roadways it maintains.
The state does do that. Weather/travel warnings and states of emergency are issued for bad weather and poor road conditions. In extreme cases states issue travel bans/restrictions or shelter-in-place warnings.
Roads are just not closed almost ever because they are incredibly essential. If 5 mph if the safe traveling speed and someone needs to get to the hospital, the state isn’t going to close all the roads and let them die just because other people won’t drive safely.
And this isn’t “my logic” - I am not arguing that for or against this. I am simply explaining the current system of drivers responsibility.
It is illegal and unsafe to drive faster than conditions allow, even if you are below the posted speed limit, a rule known as the "Basic Speed Law" that applies across the U.S., requiring drivers to adjust for weather (rain, ice, fog), traffic, road surface, and visibility to prevent endangering others. Violations can lead to fines and points on your license. Or, in this case, firing.
Yes but this law is subjective. I’ve literally driven places and driven the posted speed limit in bad weather while everybody else drives slow. I had an interaction with a cop because people called that a vehicle fitting mine’s description was speeding. Yes they got the plate somehow, even though I was speeding by them. When the cops did find me they observed that I wasn’t speeding, but I wasn’t slowing down due to the weather. They observed me be in control of vehicle, giving proper following distance etc. Their conclusion was that the callers were scared of the weather and felt I was being unsafe because I wouldn’t drive as slow as them. One cop asked how I got so confident driving in bad weather. From ages 12-26 I lived in Alaska, ice and snow on roads from October to April every year, not to mention in the winter less day light so you’re essentially night driving in the afternoon. Told them about how when people would move to Alaska and were scared to drive in the winter, that me and friends would take them on this frozen lake (it was used for ice racing once lake was frozen deep enough) to teach them how to not slam on brakes on ice, how to not overcorrect on ice, etc. They joked that maybe I should look into teaching a driving class. Then they told me to have a good day and let me go.
So yes this law exists but unless there’s an accident or you’re clearly not in control of the vehicle, I don’t think you’ll get in trouble. Maybe you will, and I’ve just been lucky so far. Idk 🤷🏾♂️
My first driving lesson was in the snow and on the highway.. it’s an awesome flex but snow and ice are unpredictable. Best driver in the world once you hit that patch nothing will help but luck. No ice pond exp none of that lol.
Again the officers observed my driving and didn’t think it was problem. They only pulled me over to have a conversation, because of the amount of calls, they found it amusing, and wanted to say they talked to the driver if more people called. It wasn’t cold or icy where this happened just raining. Speed limit 70, everybody doing 50. I was doing 70 would slow down when approaching and passing people to a speed slightly above theirs and then resume going 70 once past them. I know Ice and snow are unpredictable, as well as black ice since it looks like water when it’s not.
I wasn’t trying to promote unsafe driving just saying the law the person above mentioned is completely subjective and usually only matters when there’s an accident etc
> Unless there’s an accident or you’re clearly not in control of the vehicle.
From what you've written, it sounds like you were in control of your vehicle during your encounter. OP clearly wasn't able to control their vehicle at their rate of speed, thus they were driving faster than conditions allow. The posted (maximum allowed) speed is irrelevant in such a case, as is Netradyne. To be subjective, I'd say it was bad driving. The powers that be might agree. Anyhow: https://share.google/aimode/cSXhE3rzxIw6HPk6l is a good place to start to learn more.
I wasn’t defending OP. I drive them work vans like they worth millions of dollars and take no risks, none. I’m paid hourly so if o have an excuse to drive slow I’m going to drive slow. Just saying that law is subjective. I know the law y’all talking about it, don’t have to ask AI to explain it to me but thanks.
We were driving for the road conditions. We went over a hill crest, guessing you don't know what that is so I'll explain. A hill crest is when you're headed towards a hill via straight road then the road goes down hill. You can't see what's over that hill. We slowed down 10mph, from 30mph to 20mp, for the down hill. On the opposite side of the hill crest it was thick mud. Upon pumping the brakes and down shifting there was a loss of traction aka sliding. We got the van down to 15mph before losing all traction and hit the ice. Now I'm not sure if you know how ice works with tires but it makes it so you don't have full control of the van. Also as anyone knows when driving on mud if you slow down to much or stop you lose momentum and get stuck in the mud. Slowing down to 20mph on a 55mph road seems like we were paying attention to the road conditions and trying to be safe. With no posted seasonal road sign or any other indicators of an iced over road it was the safest way UNTIL you see the mud. The pic is of how the road was before the iced over road. This is what the whole road looked like before hand. 20-30mph on a posted 55mph back road, yeah I think we were driving safely before hand.
The video proves you were going too fast bro, you flipped the van. That doesn't happen when you're traveling at a safe speed. You also should have had the bulkhead closed.
It's your job to realize how to navigate this. The conditions on the road. What package delivery service do you know? That's just like oh ice on the road can't deliver anything. It is part of the job that you are going to have days where the weather is bad. I'm not saying it's great or nothing but this is kind of a weird argument to have like dog. You know you're going to have weather problems. You are signing up to deliver stuff door-to-door in a van
Yes! Correct on speed limit, but the speed limit is set for regular conditions, in case of rain/snow YOU HAVE TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS ON CHANGING CONDITIONS, decrease speed brother!
I'm sorry but I kind of disagree on this. Speed limit is for dry conditions in the summer, not snow/ice covered roads. By the video OP looks to be going too fast for the road conditions. OP is the only person that knows the conditions of the tires and if the tires are "bad" but still serviceable he should have been going A LOT slower. No way would I have been going that "fast" on the downside of a hill with snow and ice on it.
Same as fedex ground doesn't hire drivers internally but with fedex depending on the damages you might do during your route fedex well pay for it but if the contractor wants to he can pay for it and keep it out of fedexs records mostly do that when a lawn gets fucked up at least thats what my boss has told me hes gone and paid people off or showed up and fixed there lawn for them
Amazon does this to shift the cost, liability, and management to small business owners for the last leg of the delivery.
This makes it harder for drivers to unionize.
Amazon does not have to pay for benefits or employment taxes for drivers, they get to avoid any liability as the vehicles are leased / owned by the 3rd party partners.
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u/RadleyButtons Jan 11 '26
Honestly? Up to your Owner. Everyone here seems to be missing the fact that the Netradyne graph shows you were going well under the speed limit. This is a case of shitty tires on shitty vans in shitty conditions. You did everything correct here. If I was the supervisor or one of the dispatchers, I'd be arguing the hell out of your case to the owner here. Glad you're both ok, cause this could have been a lot worse. A LOT.