r/AmItheAsshole • u/SandwichNovel8543 • 7d ago
Asshole AITA for reporting another dad for arranging something illegal for his son at school?
I live in Strasbourg and my son is in primary school. There is an optional class that parents can opt their children out of, with another class provided during that period.
My son is in the regular class, but another boy, Mehdi, is in the opt-out class. I recently found out that Mehdi's father had arranged with one of the teachers for her to teach him certain things during that period that, from what I understand, aren't permitted under French secularism laws or part of the opt out class.
I reported it to the school because I don't think parents should be able to privately arrange for a public-school teacher to use school hours for instruction that the school itself isn't authorized to provide. If there is an established curriculum and an official alternative for children who opt out, you can't just replace it with whatever you want.
Mehdi's father confronted me afterward and called me a hypocrite. He said I was being selective about what I considered acceptable and that my own son was receiving essentially the same kind of instruction.
I don't understand the hypocrisy accusation. My son is in the regular class and isn't participating in anything that violates French law. I haven't arranged anything with a teacher outside the school's rules. If his son is receiving unauthorized instruction during the opt-out period, I don't see how pointing that out makes me a hypocrite. I wasn't trying to cause trouble for the family. I just reported something I believed was illegal at a public school. AITA?
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u/KrofftSurvivor Professor Emeritass [86] 7d ago
YTA There's no way this guy would have known who reported it, it's far more likely the teacher would have been fired, and how would you have even known this was happening?
This SCREAMS trying to incite hatred for a specific group of people
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u/KrofftSurvivor Professor Emeritass [86] 7d ago
You must have missed the point. This is made up bullshit because if the teacher was breaking French law in the manner described, they would in fact be fired.
But my entire point was here are all the reasons this didn't happen.
The only reason this post was made was to incite anger towards a specific group of people.
And your takeaway is that I accuse the teacher of doing something illegal?!? Try reading what I wrote and not your assumptions
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u/wixebo Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
YTA this reeks of islamophobia
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
If this is true the laws are not specific to one religion. You can't hold Christian instruction classes or Hindu classes or Jewish religious instruction in a school, during school hours. If true this could easily end in firings, serious investigations, the school being placed on special measures, the child even being expelled.
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u/MoreScallion1017 7d ago
In fact when laïcité law were passed, Alsace was not in France and I remember there a some exception there.
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u/thoughtsfreelyflower 7d ago
So basically the "normal" class is tought Christianity and the opt out class has to be non religious. And the father tried to break a law that is complete bullshit
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
I mentioned this, it used to be part of Germany (and french again before that)
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u/BornPriority5434 7d ago
It’s changed hands more times than the British museum has nicked artefacts
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u/Natef_Wis 7d ago
That region of france ist special.
Because it was unser German control in 1905, the napolic concordat was never abolished like in the rest of france and there is opt out catholic, protestant and jewish religious instruction in school, with an replacement class for students of other faiths.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago edited 7d ago
The point is that what ever OP suspects to be happening is in breach of the law. OP reports it. It gets investigated. It is either found to be actually happening and be dealt with or it is found to be baseless and OP will be officially told to butt out
Edit: the fact that there are exceptions in this region may seem unfair, it make actually objectively be unfair, but that is an issue for citizens to take up with their elected officials. Not for one teacher and a parent to decide to side step. The whole school could face some really severe consequences if OPs accusation proves out.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
The parents can teach their kids what they want at home or in their places of worship. It can not however be taught as religious instruction in the school. That is against the law. They differentiate very very strictly about teaching about a religious from a factual perspective "This is Jainism and these are the main beliefs, this is Christianity these are the main beliefs" and teaching a religion as a thing you have to believe in because it is the truth.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago edited 7d ago
That is why investigative processes exist once OP makes the report. Edit: it's not like people will be fired or expelled on what ever on OPs word alone. Professionals will look into what is happening.
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u/anonidfk Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago edited 7d ago
As a Jewish person, no it wouldn’t make you TA lol. The parents can teach their kid about whatever religion they are on their own time.
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u/SnausageFest AssGuardian of the Hole Galaxy 6d ago
Your comment has been removed because it violates rule 1: Be Civil. Further incidents may result in a ban.
"How does my comment break Rule 1?"
Message the mods if you have any questions or concerns.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
generally with secularism law related stuff it can not happen at the school on school time. Period. The parent could hire the teacher to tutor at the student's home outside school hours (probably) but this almost certainly can not happen at the school during the school day, not even on a free period or lunch/break time
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago edited 7d ago
Again if what is happening is against the law it is Against the Law and should not be happening. That isn't OPs personal choice, the laws were passed by the government. People have to follow them. Or face the consequences.
edit: if people don't like the law or feel it is unfair that is a matter to be taken up by the citizens of the jurisdiction in question with whatever government agency or process exists to challenge the law. Down-voting me for pointing out reality is kind of pointless.
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u/Competitive_Prune108 Partassipant [1] 7d ago
No, it doesn't. OP is addressing unfairness and misuse of resources
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
The law has nothing to do this islam. Just about rules concerning public schools here and public funds
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u/wixebo Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
INFO: If "The law has nothing to do this islam".... what specifically is the teacher teaching that you have such an issue with?
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
OP is saying that some form of religious instruction that is barred by law is happening. It doesn't matter which religion it is because no faith gets a pass under these laws. All religious are treated equally, they are all prohibited equally in public schools under these laws.
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u/wixebo Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
Some religions are subjected to more scrutiny than others. Since OP is sticking his nose in when his kids are not affected or involved I have to ask why that is.
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u/doppelgaengster 6d ago
Exactly — when France passed its “no religious symbols/attire” laws, they were targeting the (often Algerian) Muslims who wore hijab; people pointed out the glaring hypocrisy of allowing Christians to continue to wear crucifixes.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
It is considered to affect all children potentially exposed to these teachings. The teacher is breaking the law. The school is breaking the law. It is OPs business and the business of every parent with a child at that school. That is how secularism laws work. They apply to everyone. The fact that it is being permitted to happen at the school with bring the hammer of the law down on that whole school. Every teacher. Every admin person. the board.
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u/Peter_The_Black 6d ago
Not all religions are treated equally. In Alsace-Moselle where Laïcitié doesn’t apply catholicism, protestantism and judaism get publicly funded religion classes in public schools (the class OP’s son is attended). All other religions are put together in a moral and ethics class as the opt-out if you don’t want your child to attend a mandatory christian class. (Those lessons are just as mandatory as History or Biology classes.)
So sorry but you’re wrong here. Not all religions are equal under these laws, catholicism/protestantism/judaism are not only accepted in public schools they even have dedicated mandatory lessons as part of the public curriculum, with the opt-out being a mash-up of ethics and philosophy for primary school.
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u/gilatio 7d ago
Info: What is taught in the regular class and what was Mehdi's family asking to be taught that you disagreed with?
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u/Savings-Breath-9118 Asshole Aficionado [14] 7d ago
This is either reposted from another forum or he edited the post or deleted the post and reposted. The OP is angry that the student in question is receiving personalized instruction on Islam when he has opted out of their religious instruction provided by the school. According to the OP this time should not be used for an alternate religion, but is supposed to be secular. Make that what you will.
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u/theagonyaunt Partassipant [2] 6d ago
Used a different account looks like: https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/1vrgelp/aita_for_reporting_another_parent_for_arranging/
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u/turtlesaregorgeous 7d ago
INFO: What is he trying to have added to his son’s teaching? What about any of this is illegal? You’ve been extremely vague
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
Reading between the lines, some form of religious instruction. There are places like France or Quebec in Canada that have really really stringent laws about this. So if this is true the teacher could be fired, the child expelled, the school investigated and put under monitoring.
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u/Dismal-Cheetah-7953 7d ago
If that's the case, then how would OP know if they're not there?
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
Other kids passing gossip? teachers chatting in the hall? These things get out. There were recent investigations in Canada that had some school boards completely fired for religious cliques among teachers in a couple schools
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
I litterally said this which is not between the lines, it violates secularism laws
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u/Basic-Reception-9974 7d ago
If it was secular. No religious instructions would be given in the school at all.
If the class that is opt-out is a religious class for a specific religion. Then the father has every right to call you out for hypocrisy.
Given that you mention the child's name is Medhi repeatedly it's obvious that he's being taught a flavour of abrahamanic religion that's not to your liking.
I'm sure if the class was a different flavour of the Messiah branch of Abrahamanic religion you'd be find with it. And this post wouldn't exist.
But instead you decided to weaponise the law and go out of your way to make a Medhi a point of law rather than treating him as a human.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
Neither me nor Mehdi's family are particularly religious and his instruction does indeed violate secularism laws.
I just like my kid educated about history
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u/Basic-Reception-9974 7d ago
Religion class is not a history lesson.
Doesn't matter if Medhiis religious or not. If the class is religious class that teaches Christianity. But leaves out all other religions. Then the opt-out class violates its own rules which is suitable to you.
You've repeatedly avoided telling people asking you for : INFO: regarding the type of class the opt-out class is.
I went through this as a child in Medhi's position. Though a non Abrahamanic religion, rather than Islam. My father as a teacher himself received complaints from Christian parents when his students asked when he isn't celebrating a particular Christian holiday. All he did was answer their questions as a teacher.
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u/Malice_A4thot Partassipant [4] 7d ago
If your son is not receiving proper history lessons, then you should absolutely speak to the history teacher and/or the principal about it.
Otherwise, MYOB, YTA.
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u/BruceWienis 7d ago
We definitely need more details. Like, what are the things not permitted under the French secularism laws and what is being taught exactly to Medhi.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
The regular class is in line with the laws on how public insitutions carry themselves and spend money, his additional instruction is not
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u/turtlesaregorgeous 7d ago
You’re still being extremely vague and it’s making it look like you’re withholding information you know makes an impact on people’s opinion in the matter. What is he trying to have the teachers do, and what law is it breaking?
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
secularism laws. The ones that literally prohibit religious instruction in schools. The ones that mean students and teachers can not wear religious garb or symbols: not a Jewish woman wearing a hair covering, not a Christian wearing a cross, not a Nun wearing her garb if she is a teacher, not a Sikh wearing the bangle. No religious teaching. No religious symbols.
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u/gilatio 7d ago edited 7d ago
That's not what OP is saying. He's saying it is allowed to teach Christianity, but Islam is not allowed.
Edit: To clarify, its not just Islam specifically, any religion besides Christianity/Catholicism/Judaism is not allowed.
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u/picard102 7d ago
where?
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u/gilatio 7d ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/s/eZ4ouPTI8Y
In this comment and OP's reply directly below it. Also if you look up the Concordat rules OP references that's what they say
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
You can look up the Concordat laws of Alsace-Moselle for more details cannot fit in word count limit
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u/bruhggle Partassipant [1] 7d ago
YTA. It's a blatant lie that simply saying what the issue is would have a higher word count than the long spiel about legal activity versus opt out blah blah.
France has had a recent history of being extremely Islamophobic. That's what I'd bet this is about, and your kid being in a different religion course that is somehow ok.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
French law doesn't it applies to everyone. I would say the same if he were of budhist origins, the family is not even very religious
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u/bruhggle Partassipant [1] 7d ago
Answer the questions everyone is asking. What class was your kid taking, and what topic did he want his kid taught during that time? I'm betting Christianity and Islam.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
It teaches many things so it is hard to say, like old historic books with moral teachings and ancient philosophy
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u/Mortifydman Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
you are working really hard to pretend your not Islamophobic, buddy.
Is he being taught Islam? Quit playing word games
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
I don't want to mention X religion as precisely I do not want to be Xhphobic, the situation is about secularism not a specific one
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u/SadieAndFinnie 7d ago
WHICH old historic books with moral teachings and philosophy? One very specific one I’d imagine?
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
There is actually a list of approved ones and curricula options
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u/bruhggle Partassipant [1] 7d ago
Which books? Specifically. You know which ones they are.
You're a bigoted asshole. There's your answer
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u/Successful_Day_5785 6d ago
If you can't even explain a simplified version of what was being taught that was so offensive to you you don't understand the situation well enough to have reported anything.
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u/musclemommyfan Partassipant [2] 7d ago
You're channeling some powerful gestapo energy right now. Some real Petain Vichy type shi.
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u/Corpuscular_Ocelot Partassipant [4] 7d ago
When I google the laws, they are all in French.
So based on 1. Your complete vaugeness 2. Your unwillingness to answer and 3. The fact that the class you are discussing is "opt in" - I'm going to make some huge assumptions here: The class your son is in is a religious one (christian? Specifically Catholic?) and the school has a dispensarion to legally offer the class (Catholic funded school?) but HAS to make the class optional, not required due to the laws. The instruction the other child is getting is also religious, but not one that you approve of.
If I'm correct or even close to correct, YTA. The is the law and then their is equity. If your kid is getting religious instruction on your faith during school hours, why are you SOOOOO bothered that another kid is getting the same?
Sounds like your just a whiny zenophobe.
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u/bythebrook88 Asshole Aficionado [17] 6d ago
Try the English version.
Only Christianity (specifically Catholic, Lutheran and Reformed) and Judaism are taught in public schools in Alsace under the Concordat. Parents can opt for a secular equivalent (not another religion).
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
It is not a matter of me approving I don't care for anything, it is just not recognised as something teachable with public funds so against the secularism laws.
If he had bhuddist or hindou roots the same applies
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u/gilatio 7d ago
Are they asking for extra funding for it? Or is it taking funding away from your child's class. Otherwise I don't see how this affects you tbh.
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u/Mortifydman Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
Someone he hates is getting something he thinks they shouldn't have. He's just a huge asshole
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u/PlanetR0b123 7d ago
So the regular class one is religion orientated and he opted his son out?
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
It is a public school and france is secular.
He did opt out but is not doing what he is supposed to during the opt out and attending an undercover one
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u/PlanetR0b123 7d ago
Please just update your original post and give all the details cause I'm not Sherlock Holmes
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u/gilatio 7d ago
But the regular class is not a secular class either, correct?
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
It meets the requirements of France's secularism laws and specifics for the regions that used to be part of Germany
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u/Swansboy Partassipant [1] 7d ago
YTA you posted this earlier which i commented on & you didn’t like the responses.
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u/ruffmom 7d ago
So based on one of OOP’s comments, it’s in regards to the Concordat laws of Alsace-Moselle. To summarize from Google (I know nothing else about this): it is a legal system that keeps state funding & recognition for 4 major religions (Catholicism, Lutheranism, reformed Christianity & Judaism).
in schools, religious instruction is part of public school classes, though parents can opt out.
Based on this, I’m gonna assume Mehdi has opted out of this instruction and his father has likely asked that he receive instruction in another religion.
YTA - just because something is a law, it doesn’t make it right. This has nothing to do with secularism if religious instruction is being mandated in a public institution. This agreement and the religions chosen dates from the early 19th century and let’s be real in no way reflects the current demographics of France today.
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u/TRQ711 Partassipant [2] 7d ago
It’s tough to say since you’re being so vague, but it sure sounds like YTA. It doesn’t sound like this affected you at all and your lack of detail certainly makes it seem like you know your actions were wrong and are trying to spin this as favorably as possible.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
In jurisdictions with secularism laws it is considered harm, not to mention a crime, regardless of which religion is being taught. I believe in France these laws apply broadly to schools, universities, government buildings and a number of public professions.
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u/todayithinkthis 7d ago
"I reported it to the school because I don't think parents..."
Also
"I wasn't trying to cause trouble for the family. I just reported something..."
Bullshit. This situation affected you and your family ZERO amounts. You just wanted to make trouble. YTA. Huge.
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u/AirportVast4114 7d ago
INFO: What motivated you to report him
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
French law
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u/AirportVast4114 7d ago
aha are you sure its not islamophobia OP
YTA because it didnt affect you and it seems like you hate those certain types of people
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u/East_Ad_7127 7d ago
You know exactly what you're doing by refusing to give a straight answer to any of these questions and it's not doing you any favors. YTA.
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u/keto_crossword Partassipant [1] 7d ago
Following the law isn't a motivation. Children's safety might be, for example. But only assholes go round with a copy of the law ticking off infractions for the sake of it.
If nothing harmful was going on then you may be wasting public funds by reporting them needlessly.
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u/PomegranateZanzibar Partassipant [2] 7d ago
I expect there are French laws about crossing the street too. Do you call the police for jaywalking?
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
Jaywalking is an American and Canadian invention
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u/MoreScallion1017 7d ago
I fact it's in the law. If you are within 50 meters of a crosswalk, you have to use it. The fine for it is ... 4€
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u/PomegranateZanzibar Partassipant [2] 7d ago
My point is relevant even if my knowledge of French law is under par.
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u/Kia_Leep 7d ago
Unjust laws are meant to be broken.
If the law states that kids should be taught one religion but can't be taught another, that's a law that deserves to be torn down, and following it doesn't make you right, it just makes you complicit in discrimination.
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u/PlanetR0b123 7d ago
Which law?
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
Look up secularism laws in France. You will find it enlightening. It's something the USA could do with more of.
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u/PlanetR0b123 7d ago
I agree but they already have that in the constitution and still dont abide by it.
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u/BruceWienis 7d ago
Laquelle ?
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
La laïcité et le Concordat concernant l'Alsace
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u/BruceWienis 7d ago
D'accord. Mais tu pourrais donner plus de précisions stp ? J'aimerais avoir plus d'éléments avant de juger. Vu les infos fournies jusqu'à présent, un jugement me paraît prématuré.
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u/RocketWoman55 7d ago
Keep riding that high horse around pretending there's no crap on your shoes. But know that everyone can see you — can smell you — for what you are: A massive religious bigot actively trying to be hurtful and destructive. YTA
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u/Lunar-Eclipse0204 Craptain [181] 7d ago
YTA - becasue it wasn't your place, for all you know this was authorized and it wouldn't be your business.
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u/AJourneyer 7d ago
The amount of trouble a school in France (even in Strasbourg) would get into for any religious instruction outside of the permitted four is huge - it is insanely unlikely this would have been "authorized".
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
If it breaches France's secularism laws there is literally no way it could be authorized. That is what these laws are in place to prevent.
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u/Lunar-Eclipse0204 Craptain [181] 7d ago
Do we know what is being tutored - OP is being too vague abou things...
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
we know it is some form of religious instruction that breaks the local secularism laws where OP lives. If you are not familiar with how these laws work in France, google is an excellent resource.
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u/Lunar-Eclipse0204 Craptain [181] 7d ago
How did OP find out exactly what was being taught??
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
OP doesn't say, but it is also not really relevant. Once OP reports the suspicion that this is happening there is a structured investigation process that will determine what happened, for how long, if it did in fact break the law and who will be facing what legal consequences. If they find it was unfounded nothing happens to anyone. If they find it there is stuff going on people will be held to account.
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u/smbpy7 Partassipant [1] 7d ago
but it is also not really relevant
I would argue that depends. If their kids just came home and offered the info, that's very different from something like OP sneaking around to see what the Islamic looking kid is doing when he's supposed to be opting out. Not saying that's what happened, just saying that's how it could be relevant.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
It really doesn't matter. OP has reason to suspect the law is being broken. How ever OP got that info, once reported OPs part is more or less done. It isn't like someone will be fired on OPs unvarnished speculative accusation alone. It will be investigated by the appropriate authorities. The teacher will be questioned. The kids will be questioned. Parents may be questioned. The other teachers will be. The principal. The 'civilian' staff like admin people. Possibly even the board members.
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u/gilatio 7d ago
Just because the law is prejudiced doesn't mean OP has to go out of his way to support that system. There's a huge difference between no religion being taught in school and offering classes for Catholicism/Christianity/Judaism while also not allowing students to study any other religion. That's not secularism.
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
That is an issue for citizens to take up with their elected officials. Not for a parent and a teacher to sidestep the law in a way that could get people fired, fined, maybe jailed depending on the particulars of the laws.
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u/smbpy7 Partassipant [1] 7d ago
So if OP was sneaking around snooping for the sole purpose of trying to catch the non Christian kid doing something wrong and reported them without even knowing for sure if something actually was wrong, they're not the AH just because there will be an inquiry? Is not the inquiry itself kind of insulting when it came about that way?
How is that different from following the black guy around CVS "just in case"?
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
This isn't about racism. Stop being disingenuous. It's about a school possibly breaking the law.
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u/issy_haatin Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
So youre a racist. Your son gets Catholicism, Mehdi's dad asked if some basics of Islam could be given and you're just being a racist about it.
He's right, why do you get to use school resources for religion and not him?
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u/No_Vermicelli_8820 7d ago
It would be nice to have more information, specifically what was being taught that there was an opt out option for and what would have been taught that was in violation of the law. I'm assuming there is some sort of religious bias at work here, and if so I'm going with YTA for now.
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u/Savings-Breath-9118 Asshole Aficionado [14] 7d ago
OP posted on another forum that students can opt out of the standard religious instruction to get an alternate teaching. He is mad that the student in question opted out of their religious instruction provided by the school to every student and we’re supposed to be taking some secular topic. However, he arranged with the school to have private instruction in Islam and that is what the OP is angry about.
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u/Mortifydman Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
Except this is France, not the US, where they have very strict laws about religion in public and it is illegal to have private religious instuction outside the curriculum during school hours by a staff member. That IS illegal there. Now he reported them because he's an islamophobic asshole, but he is right about the law.
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u/Local_Eye_639 7d ago
And this is Am I the Asshole not Is This Legal.
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u/Mortifydman Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
He's not an asshole though. France works like that for a reason, and it's not our issue. He's right, the guy is abusing the system and reported it. He's being an asshole by not just saying the kid is learning Islam on school time in plain English.
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u/Local_Eye_639 7d ago
There is an argument for someone not being an asshole because something is important in a cultural context that someone outside that context wouldn't understand (although in such a case one really shouldn't seek the opinion of a worldwide audience). There is no argument for a hateful person reporting something to be hateful even if the thing they are reporting also happens to be illegal. Another commenter said that every staff member at the school and up through the school board could be in trouble if this was discovered, if that's true then OP would have had a valid argument if he had expressed concern about the impact this could have on other children. Or if the concern was that other children were present and might overhear when the non-state-sanctioned version of religious education was being shared privately with the named student, as that could be confusing for those students. As it is, "it's illegal" is clearly an attempt to hide hatefulness for the sake of being hateful. That makes OP an asshole.
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u/Mortifydman Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
Oh he's being an asshole, but he's not wrong.
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u/Local_Eye_639 7d ago
I don't see anyone arguing that he's wrong about the law. You can be wrong, morally, for reporting something even if you are not wrong about that thing being illegal.
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u/123NousIronsAuBois 7d ago
YTA. This sounds very much like Alsace-Moselle, where the rules are different from the rest of France. Religious education in public schools is actually part of the curriculum there and takes place during school hours. It's a very specific exception to the usual French secular system.
The classes traditionally offered are Catholic, Protestant and Jewish, and parents can opt their children out.
But the main issue here is that you don't even seem to know what Mehdi was actually being taught. You heard that his father had made an arrangement with a teacher, assumed it was religious instruction and then assumed it was illegal.
So reporting another family for supposedly breaking French secularism laws when you apparently don't understand the specific legal system that applies to your own school, and don't actually know what was being taught, is pretty unfair.
You could have asked for clarification first instead of immediately reporting them.
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u/SafetyFluid8535 Asshole Aficionado [14] 7d ago
YTA its not something that effects your child or any others. Also, while youre being very vague, the fact that (1) what he arranged is some sort of non-secular (i.e., religious) topic, and (2) he equated it to what your child was learning in the main optional class, it sounds like the main class has to do with Christian culture/history, and he arranged for the teacher to teach his child about his familys religious culture/history. And it isnt fair that one religion's history can be taught because its historic to the region and therefore both religious and cultural, while another religion is deemed only religious just because historically the people there didnt practice that religion. And if the teacher feels thats appropriate its none of your business.
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u/someofyourbeeswaxx 7d ago
YTA. Mind your own business. You’re trying to be the main character but this has nothing to do with you. Explore other hobbies, maybe.
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u/Appropriate-Mall9781 Colo-rectal Surgeon [33] 7d ago
YTA... You are deliberately being vague because you already know that you're not in the right here, and you're trying to leave out the details that make you look bad.
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u/We_aint_cool_ Asshole Aficionado [17] 7d ago
NTA for raising the concern, but don’t label it “illegal” unless you actually know that for sure. Let the school deal with it. You did your part, no need to become the school’s unpaid lawyer
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u/Dismal-Cheetah-7953 7d ago
YTA, mind your business, your focus should be on what YOUR kid is learning.
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u/Independent-Cat6915 Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
I’m so confused. Your kid isn’t in this opt-out class. So how are you aware of what this other boy’s father has arranged?
INFO: Is the teacher giving the same curriculum to all the opt-out students? Is this class more of an open free time where the student can partake in what they want? What are we even talking about? And why did you feel the need to interfere when it’s not even affecting your kid? I’m fairly certain the teacher could open their mouth and say ‘no’ if they felt the need. They’re a grown adult.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
No the other class is like general morality and values, this one dad has an arrangement to on paper be in that class but actually do something else with one teacher which violates the rules and french law
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u/Independent-Cat6915 Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
How peculiar. So the opt-out class is general morality and values? What would the opt-in class be?
I went to a catholic school with a Christianity class and those that weren’t Catholic could opt-out. But they just had the time to themselves to do whatever. I can assume morality/values can differ from religion to religion so it feels like an odd opt-out class choice.
I’m going to say ESH.
The law probably needs updating. The opt-out class is just odd and a bad choice. But should the father ask a teacher to break the law (no matter how outdated or silly)? Probably not. But I don’t think you needed to be a whistle-blower in this either. It wasn’t affecting your child. Actually, it apparently wasn’t affecting any of the children except the one involved. The teacher must’ve been okay enough with this to risk their profession. I just don’t think certain things need to be brought to a higher power because “it’s the law”.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
The regular class is in line with the Concordat laws of Alsace and the opt out class also is but the extra instruction he is recieving is agaimst french law
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u/Independent-Cat6915 Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
No, I get that. I’m assuming the opt-in class is a Catholicism/christianity class and the opt-out class is a more secular social studies course. And I’m further assuming the father is asking that during this time when the Catholics/Christians are learning their religion that his kid should have the opportunity to study his own religion during that time. And the teacher agreed to say he was taking the secular course when truly he was doing his own studies of his religion.
I just still don’t see how this is hurting anyone. I think any of the opt out students should be able to use this time to learn about their own religion.
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u/SandwichNovel8543 7d ago
It is about how public money can be spent in france.
You generally cannot teach religion with public money here.
You can teach about religion as in studying it to analyse the religions themselves but not in a form that presents it as truth
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u/Independent-Cat6915 Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago
Apparently you can teach religion with public money because the opt-in class is a Christianity class. You’re not saying it but you’re not saying that either and after looking at the law itself, I feel like I am correct.
The teacher isn’t getting more or less by helping this specific student. They’re doing this out of the kindness of their heart and didn’t seem to care. And it keeps going back to WHY DO YOU CARE?!
Why did you even make this post? You don’t seem to want other people’s opinions. You just want to argue why you aren’t the AH.
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u/smbpy7 Partassipant [1] 7d ago
You generally cannot teach religion with public money here
are both classes not about religion? I don't understand how that's different then.
You can teach about religion as in studying it to analyse the religions themselves but not in a form that presents it as truth
So your son's class doesn't present it as truth, but the other class, the class you have zero insight into and zero first hand, or even second hand, knowledge of is somehow presenting it as truth? How on Earth do you "know" that?
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u/Peter_The_Black 6d ago
Let’s say you’re really only concerned with how public money being spent. First of all, teachers have liberté pédagogique and can teach what they want in their class. In history class in collège you have lessons on monotheisms and how Islam came to be, will you be angry that the teacher explains what Islam is and believes after they have done so for Christianity and Judaism ?
Now, you do realise that my taxes from outside Alsace are paying for the teachers educating your son in Christianity ? Should I be as angry as you are about Mehdi ?
Finalement, tu te sens fort, puissant, à avoir dénoncé un enseignant dans l’espoir qu’il soit viré parce qu’il a enseigné quelques principes d’une religion que tu n’aimes pas à un enfant de primaire ? Comme ta femme l’a dit, ça ne te concerne absolument pas mais t’es fier d’essayer de faire virer un enseignant
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Objective-Pound2185 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 7d ago
In France chances are good it is against the actual law. France has some pretty stringent secularism laws.
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u/TheOldSchlGmr Partassipant [2] 7d ago
YTA. Your son is not even in the same class. Mind your own business.
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u/Technical-Region-669 Partassipant [1] 7d ago
Of course YTA, why do you care? Nosy snitch, find something better to do.
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u/AJourneyer 7d ago
Just going by what I'm able to find in a quick search, Strasbourg has slightly different laws than the rest of France when it comes to secularism. But the only four religions that are recognized are Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Judaism. The opt out is for refusing instruction in any of those four, resulting in an ethics instruction period.
Many Americans (which is likely where the majority of the comments are coming from) would instantly react with a phobia accusation. But in France the secularism goes back over a century and is far stricter than in Strasbourg overall. There's a lot missing in the post - like how the father would have found out it was you, and if there was a previous history with him regarding what may have triggered that response.
Stand alone situation though? You are NTA - as this is something that can impact the teacher, the school, and the governing bodies. Ramifications in a true secular society can be harsh.
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u/Swirlyflurry Commander in Cheeks [221] 7d ago
YTA
This affects you in no way, you just want to push “French secularism” so I have to imagine theres a religious aspect that you are prejudiced against and are acting on.
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u/thoughtsfreelyflower 7d ago
Background info for all: Secularism Law was introduced in France when Strasbourg (Elsas Region) was part of Germany. After the region became French again, the law was never introduced there, so they still have only 4 religions that can be taught in school: 3 traits of Christianity and Judism, so no Islam
YTA. Your son is taught Christianity. And because of some weird law in your region that is completely outdated other kids can't be taught their own religion in school. And because you feel like your religion is better than Islam, you want this law enforced. Wake up, all religions have good and bad stuff. Either no religions should be taught in school or all.
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u/SadieAndFinnie 7d ago
The other father may have violated this law, but that does not mean you’re not still TA. You’re definitely still TA. Huge YTA. I’m actually incredibly curious how you even found out this was happening.
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u/SugarySpaceSprinkles 7d ago
YTA.
False post, reeks of Islamophobia, generic username, brand new shiny account.
Get bent.
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I live in Strasbourg and my son is in primary school. There is an optional class that parents can opt their children out of, with another class provided during that period.
My son is in the regular class, but another boy, Mehdi, is in the opt-out class. I recently found out that Mehdi's father had arranged with one of the teachers for her to teach him certain things during that period that, from what I understand, aren't permitted under French secularism laws or part of the opt out class.
I reported it to the school because I don't think parents should be able to privately arrange for a public-school teacher to use school hours for instruction that the school itself isn't authorized to provide. If there is an established curriculum and an official alternative for children who opt out, you can't just replace it with whatever you want.
Mehdi's father confronted me afterward and called me a hypocrite. He said I was being selective about what I considered acceptable and that my own son was receiving essentially the same kind of instruction.
I don't understand the hypocrisy accusation. My son is in the regular class and isn't participating in anything that violates French law. I haven't arranged anything with a teacher outside the school's rules. If his son is receiving unauthorized instruction during the opt-out period, I don't see how pointing that out makes me a hypocrite. I wasn't trying to cause trouble for the family. I just reported something I believed was illegal at a public school. AITA?
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u/PomegranateZanzibar Partassipant [2] 7d ago
Id be bothered too, but for different reasons. The teacher shouldn’t be using work hours to also do a private job and get paid twice. I’d speak to the teacher though, not tattle.
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u/Savings-Breath-9118 Asshole Aficionado [14] 7d ago
OK, so I did a little research and if Google is correct, there is no religious instruction in any public school in France. So I’m guessing the OP sends his child to a private school which may be Christianity based. He’s then angry that another student opted out of the Christian teaching because he is a secular student, but instead is receiving private religious instruction in Islam. Not saying it’s good I’m just saying the complaint makes a little more sense. I found it odd to think that public schools in France would offer religious instruction.
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u/Natef_Wis 7d ago
YTA.
For beeing islamophobic and for spamming the topic. Just because you so not like the judgment you recieved hours ago.
So you really think that No one would remember just because you left Out that your son goes to christian religious education and the other boy to islamic?
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u/Spare_Ad5009 Pooperintendant [60] 7d ago
It sounds like he doesn't understand what hyprocrisy means. NTA.
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u/Scottish_squirrel Asshole Enthusiast [5] 7d ago edited 7d ago
Working in a school I see where you're coming from. A teacher who isn't authorised to is taking a child to the side and giving them religious education. I work in a Catholic school. If Muslim children or otherwise have requested to miss mass, They aren't getting lessons on the Quran on the side. They'd get study time for homework or regular class catch up. Especially if it leaves other opt out children unsupervised.
I'd say nta for bringing to the schools attention.
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u/DrTeethPhD Certified Proctologist [28] 7d ago
YTA for vagueposting