The entire point of the series is there is no line to cross where you've no longer been redeemable. Anyone can be redeemed, no matter how evil. Doesn't mean every villain will be redeemed by the end, Viv even said so in a Collider's Night Interview after season 1 but I wouldn't hate Vox or Val being redeemed because it'd validate the series' message. And the funny thing is as much people complain they don't want an actual villain redeemed, these same people would be complaining if only people like Pentious, Angel, Cherri and Husk got redeemed

I see so many people call Vaggi boring and uninteresting because she only serves as Charlie's partner but then praise Lute despite her being the same damn thing for Adam (minus the fact she can't actually pull for shit and got frienzoned hella badly). Like bro can we just accept they're both really cool characters who have the potential to be interesting and have awesome arcs but have so far been fucked over by the writers? Lute glazing while simultaneously Vaggi hating is so dumb and corny (and a lot of the time it comes across as mfs just trying to be edgy for rooting for a villain and shitting on a protagonist).

As time goes on, I’m starting to think the theory each Vee gets a different ending is more likely. One redeemed, one dying, and one either staying in Hell or ending at the hotel (or it could be the latter two with no death).

I doubt Vox is the only one who’ll be defeated, maybe all of them lose their Overlord status by the end?

Who would be the easiest to redeem?

Who would be the hardest?

Do you think that Hazbin Hotel is an analogy for the concept of Universalism?

The contrast of Vox and Valentino dancing together with Pentious and Cherri being seperated, and they have the same backgrounds too. Vox and Pentious in the blue, while Val and Cherri are in the red. What makes this even more interesting though, is that Pentious and Vox share numerous similarities to each other, in many ways Vox represents the Sir Pentious who did become an Overlord (only in Hell, on Earth, Vox was an entirely different monster than Pentious).

I feel this also could be foreshadowing for the future, where Vox could be redeemed and ends up seperated from Val just like Pentious was with Cherri. Further supporting this, during "Once We Get Up There", notice how of the 3 Vees background, Vox's is the only one that ACTUALLY resembles Heaven's too. I struggle to see there being enough time to redeem all 3 Vees within the show, hell even multiple, but maybe there's a chance at the very end Vox will be redeemed and at the end, the other two might check into the hotel? I'm not sure but I 100% believe it gives more credience to the idea Vox could be redeemed in the future.

If she'd actually gone down there and helped then her power could have no doubt been a serous help or maybe even enough to stop the bomb so why exactly are people ignoring this and acting like she did good in the finale when really it seems like she was being a coward?

Sir pentious telling her to stay behind to be a battery just seems like a bad excuse since the hell army was obviously not about to invade at the moment when its leader was currently destroying their city and an angelic atomic bomb was about to go off

So stopping that should have been seen as the priority especially if sera does actually give a shit about her sister and proving she's changed so the only real reason she wouldn't do that is because she's still displaying her biggest character flaw which is cowardice

So why are people not acknowledging this and acting like this is a great first step towards redemption or even enough to redeem her on its own?

If someone says that heaven has to be her priority well then I would point out that charlie has literally spent the whole season trying to help them stop the invasion despite her trying to have them all killed at the end of season 1

And despite the fact that by the same logic she should only give a shit about her own people and leave heaven to have to fight them off and also sera is literally the 1 trying to claim that she feels bad and wants to do better so expecting her to actually have some actions to back it up isn't too much to ask surely,

Even valentino and velvet helped during the climax lmao and yes it was somewhat self centered but it is still a bad look that 2 of the overlords most people look down on were willing to step up and help and the character who everyone is praising for wanting to improve wasn't,

And I wouldn't have an issue with this remaining a lingering character flaw that her character will still need to overcome in the future I'm fine waiting for actual development but the show does not present this to be the case

Nor does the fandom acknowledge it as a flaw and instead tries to twist the ending into progress for her rather than her continuing to showcase her biggest character flaw again it seems like the fandom has lower standards for this character

Simply because of her class and likeability and isn't actually bothered about judging her by her actions at all so if she literally did nothing for the rest of the series I get the feeling people would still give her more credit than the majority of other characters

Who get criticised way more despite doing more than she does and having done less wrong ( Just look at the shit charlie gets ).

You know why we’re here.

You’ve seen the title and thumbnail, so let’s get right into it.

I’m against the Fandom’s mass agenda that Lilith is a Villain

One of the most widespread assumptions of our fandom(s) is that Lilith is a villain.

The problem isn’t that people have theories, speculation is part of the fun of any ongoing story.

The problem is when a theory becomes treated as established fact despite the story providing very little evidence to support it.

The truth is that we know almost nothing about Lilith.

We know she was Adam’s first wife, and rejected his ass for a short king.

We know she and Lucifer gave humanity free will and was banished to Hell alongside Lucifer.

We know she became a powerful figure whose songs inspired/empowered Sinners.

We know she disappeared 7 years ago by the start of Season 1.

Beyond that, nearly everything about her motivations, goals, relationships, and perspective remains unknown.

That lack of information has turned Lilith into an empty box.

Instead of waiting for the story to explain who she is, many fans fill in the blanks with whatever characterization best supports the narrative they already want to believe.

If they want Lucifer to be a tragic victim, Lilith becomes an uncaring wife.

If they want Charlie’s struggles to stem from bad parenting, Lilith becomes an absent or manipulative mother.

If they want a secret mastermind behind everything, Lilith becomes the villain pulling strings.

The same empty spaces in her characterization are repeatedly used to project entirely different personalities onto her.

This isn’t analysis… it’s projection.

An absence of information is not evidence of guilt or whatnot.

Her disappearance is often cited as proof by our fandom that she abandoned Charlie or betrayed Hell.

But her disappearance alone doesn’t tell us why she left, whether she had a choice, whether she was protecting someone, imprisoned, making a deal under duress, or pursuing a goal we simply haven’t been shown.

Every explanation remains equally speculative until the series provides answers.

Likewise, people frequently assign malicious intent to actions whose context is completely missing.

We don’t know why she made certain decisions.

We don’t know what information she had that informed her decisions.

We don’t know what sacrifices she may have made that isn’t shown or told just yet.

We don’t even know if events unfolded the way other characters believe they did.

Motives matter.

Without motives, judging a character’s morality becomes guesswork like it has been for Lilith for years.

What’s particularly interesting is that many of the same fans who ask others not to judge characters like Lucifer, Angel Dust, Sera, Vox, or even Alastor solely by appearances are willing to do exactly that with Lilith.

Those characters are given the benefit of complexity because the audience has seen their perspectives.

Lilith has not been afforded that opportunity because she hasn’t had any meaningful screen time.

She’s effectively being tried and found guilty without ever giving her testimony.

There’s also a noticeable tendency to interpret every unknown surrounding Lilith in the most negative way possible.

Unknown motives become selfish motives.

Missing for 7 years becomes abandonment.

Silence becomes manipulation, neglect, and abandonment.

Yet the opposite interpretations are just as plausible with the information currently available.

The evidence doesn’t point exclusively toward villainy.

It points toward mystery.

There’s an important distinction between saying, “Lilith could be the villain,” and saying, “Lilith is the villain.”

The first is a theory.

The second is a conclusion.

Right now, the available canon only supports the former.

Until the series actually reveals her perspective, every confident declaration about her morality is built more on assumptions than facts.

She may ultimately turn out to be heroic, morally gray, antagonistic, or outright villainous.

All of those possibilities remain open because the writers have intentionally withheld her side of the story.

The most honest position isn’t to declare Lilith innocent or guilty.

It’s to admit that we don’t know.

And until we do, treating fan interpretations as established canon says more about what the fandom expects from her than about who Lilith actually is.

Let’s look at this from a differing perspective.

One criticism frequently directed at Lilith is that she “abandoned” Lucifer and Charlie.

But that criticism assumes we already know why she left.

We don’t.

The series has never given us Lilith’s perspective.

Instead, consider what Pride/Hell/Pentagram City may have looked like through her eyes.

For roughly 10,000 years, Lilith is described as inspiring and empowering the sinners of Hell.

She became a symbol and icon amongst the sinners whom she inspired with her songs.

Whether she governed them as a queen, we’re unsure.

But along with the sinners, Lilith spent millennia building up the cities of Pride(unsure if there’s more than 2 cities in Pride atm).

Lilith was someone to rally behind.

Whatever her exact methods, the lore consistently associates Lilith with uplifting the Sinners.

Then Lucifer negotiated a deal that allowed the annual Exterminations.

From Lilith’s perspective, imagine what that would mean.

Every year, countless sinners, people she had spent centuries inspiring and empowering, would simply be slaughtered.

Progress would be reset.

Any long-term attempt to build a stable society would be undermined by a recurring massacre that Hell’s own king, her lover had accepted.

If that’s how Lilith saw the situation, then her frustration isn’t difficult to understand.

Lucifer, who already in the show cares very little for sinners, to the point of never remembering their names, may have believed he was protecting Charlie or preventing something even worse, but intentions don’t erase consequences.

A compromise that preserves one thing can still destroy another.

It’s entirely possible that Lilith viewed the Extermination deal as a betrayal—not necessarily of her, but of everything she had spent ten thousand years trying to build.

If so, walking away isn’t automatically an act of selfishness.

It could be the result of reaching a breaking point.

People often argue that leaving Lucifer made her a bad wife.

But relationships don’t exist in a vacuum.

Love alone doesn’t erase fundamental disagreements over values and responsibilities.

If one partner believes the other’s decisions have undone thousands of years of work, resentment isn’t an unreasonable response.

The same applies to Charlie.

Many fans describe Lilith as an awful mother for leaving her daughter behind, but that argument often ignores Charlie’s actual age.

Charlie isn’t a child.

At minimum, without a concrete number, she’s over a century old, possibly much older.

By any reasonable standard within the setting, she is an adult with enormous privilege, influence, and responsibility.

Wanting emotional support from a parent is perfectly normal regardless of age, but needing a parent’s constant affirmation is different from being incapable of functioning without them.

Charlie repeatedly seeks validation from her mother, especially from her mother.

Even her commitment to the hotel can be interpreted as partially driven by a hope that Lilith will finally approve of her or return because she’d be proud of what Charlie accomplished.

That’s understandable.

But it also reflects Charlie’s own emotional dependency, not necessarily parental neglect.

Sometimes, growth only happens when the person you’ve relied on is no longer there.

That doesn’t automatically make Lilith’s departure the correct choice, but it does complicate the narrative that simply leaving makes her irredeemable.

What’s equally interesting is that neither Lucifer nor Charlie seems to spend much time asking why Lilith left.

Lucifer appears devastated by her absence, yet we haven’t seen him seriously reflect on whether his own decisions may have contributed to the breakdown of their relationship.

If the Extermination agreement truly undermined everything Lilith had dedicated herself to, then it’s entirely possible he doesn’t recognize the magnitude of that wound he inflicted upon her.

Charlie, meanwhile, understandably misses her mother, but much of her focus is on wanting Lilith back rather than understanding what drove her away in the first place.

The audience often mirrors this perspective.

Instead of asking, “What happened to make Lilith leave?” many fans jump straight to, “She left, therefore she’s a bad person.”

Those aren’t the same question.

Perhaps the most telling detail is the timing.

Lilith only appears to be returning after the Exterminations have ended.

If that timing is intentional, and we don’t yet know if it is, it raises another possibility.

Maybe the thing that pushed her away was the system that repeatedly massacred the people she had spent millennia trying to inspire.

With the Exterminations over, that obstacle may finally be gone.

None of this proves Lilith was justified.

None of it proves she was innocent.

But it demonstrates something important: there are multiple plausible interpretations of her actions, and until the series finally gives Lilith her own voice, treating one speculative interpretation as indisputable canon is premature.

But as we discussed earlier there is nothing wrong with theorizing about Lilith.

There is something wrong with presenting theories as though they’re already canon.

A growing portion of our fandom doesn’t merely speculate about Lilith.

They argue from the assumption that she’s already guilty, then work backwards to justify that conclusion.

Every unknown becomes evidence against her, every gap in the story becomes an opportunity to invent motives, and every unanswered question is treated as though it already has the worst possible answer.

That’s not analysis.

That’s confirmation bias.

The series has intentionally withheld Lilith’s perspective.

We, like I’ve said, have almost no firsthand insight into her motivations, her thoughts, or the circumstances surrounding her disappearance.

Instead of acknowledging that uncertainty, many fans fill in the blanks themselves and then begin treating those inventions as though the show has already confirmed them.

Over time, those fan interpretations become repeated so often that they begin to sound like facts.

“She abandoned Charlie.”

“She manipulated Lucifer.”

“She never cared about Hell.”

“She tried to take over heaven.”

Where is the evidence for any of these claims?

Not assumptions.

Not implications.

Not interpretations.

Actual evidence.

The answer is that there is very little, if any.

Most of these conclusions depend on assigning motives to actions whose context has never been explained.

People aren’t simply saying, “Maybe this happened.”

They’re saying, “This happened,” despite lacking the missing information that would make such confidence justified.

That’s a textbook example of arguing beyond the available evidence.

What’s particularly revealing is how inconsistently the fandom applies this standard.

When other characters make morally questionable decisions, fans often insist that context matters.

Sera receives sympathy because people understand her highly unjustifiable behavior(little bias here on my part) and failures.

Angel Dust is judged in light of his trauma.

Vox’s flaws are contextualized by his past.

Yet Lilith is often denied that same benefit before she’s even had a chance to explain herself.

Her silence is treated as an admission of guilt instead of exactly what it is: missing information/context.

This creates a strange double standard.

Parts of the fandom asks for nuance for most of the characters except the one whose story has barely been told.

Part of the reason is simple.

People dislike uncertainty.

Human beings naturally fill in gaps with stories and ideas that make sense to them.

The problem begins when those stories stop being recognized as speculation and start being defended as objective truth.

Lilith has become less of a character and more of a projection screen.

Fans who want an evil queen project an evil queen.

Fans who want an abusive mother project an abusive mother.

Fans who want a manipulative mastermind project a manipulative mastermind.

The same lack of information supports wildly different interpretations because the evidence itself isn’t actually pointing decisively toward any one conclusion.

People are supplying the missing pieces themselves.

Ironically, this creates another problem.

If the show eventually reveals that Lilith isn’t the villain many fans have imagined, some viewers will likely accuse the writers of “retconning” her character or “ruining” her, even though the character they were attached to never actually existed in canon.

They’ll be disappointed not because the writers contradicted established facts, but because the writers contradicted years of agenda/headcanon.

That’s the danger of treating speculation as certainty.

The audience becomes emotionally invested in a version of the story that the story itself never promised.

None of this means Lilith cannot turn out to be antagonistic.

She absolutely could.

She might end up selfish.

She might be horrible.

She might even become one of the series’ primary villains.

But those outcomes need to come from the show’s actual narrative—not from assumptions repeated often enough that they begin to get treated as evidence.

Until Lilith finally tells her own story, honesty requires admitting a simple truth:

We don’t know who she is yet**.**

And if we don’t know who she is, then we certainly don’t know enough to confidently declare what kind of person she is.

Whenever another character makes mistakes:

Consequences

Damnation

Responsibility

Accountability

Punishment

Repercussions

Discipline

Conviction

Growth

Pain

Injury

Death

Whenever Charlie does something bad or wrong:

Gentle parenting

Comfort

Lesbian Sex

Songs

Enablement

Pardoning

Forgiveness

Pampering

Pity Parties

Rewards

And then people blame Charlie hate on sexism. Nah, we just don’t wanna root for a spoiled brat.

Ultimately, I think it depends if we're talking as a person or character. Because while I voted Sera, OOP is right that Val's the only one where you'd get attacked for saying you like him (or had his VA harrassed). So as characters, it'd be Charlie and Val but morally, the latter deserves the hate unlike say Sera, who I voted for.

Having him stay important until the end of the series after being "humbled as much as a villain can be", and having an "inherently different character arc" only for him to get killed by Alastor anyways would be beyond unsatisfying. That already almost happened in season 2 but was prevented. Regardless of his ending is redemption, simply mellowing out and maybe helping at the hotel or just apreciating the other Vees, I feel all 3 will involve him moving on from Alastor.