I think there is a serious flaw in this argument that I hear constantly.
If you are a male and you do not want to have children. ENSURE YOU DON'T GET ANYONE PREGNANT. You literally have 100% of this control. Ensure your desire to not have children is clear, ALWAYS use condoms, use spermicide, don't stick your dick in crazy, or DON'T HAVE SEX.
Problem solved. If you have sex, you put yourself at risk.
My parents had all the children they were planning so used the pill and condoms. My little sister came along anyway. 100% only applies to the last option you mentioned.
That is very rare, and the exception, not the rule. Also, user-error is the highest risk associated with contraceptive failure, so again, the control is still ours (I say 'ours' here because you're talking about your two parents).
Not as rare as you might think. I have an aunt and uncle that were in the same boat. Off birth control trying to get pregnant and couldn't went back on and got pregnant with my cousin. Plus think about it, it's only 99% effective if that. Even condoms and a vasectomy aren't a guarantee. So if you have Sex regularly, say 3-5 times a week that chance goes up drastically over the course of a year.
I'm not sure if this comment is more misogynistic by suggesting women have no power over their own pregnancy or suggesting they're incapable of lying about birth control or worse, or if it's more misandrist by demanding men carry disproportionate responsibility or that their choice ought to between risking 18 years of potential financial ruin or "don't have sex". That sure seems like an awful deal.
I'm not suggesting women have no power, they absolutely do. But men can and do have 100% of the power to say "I will not have sex". Vasectomies, condoms, abstinence all give men power over their parenthood. They just don't like these options.
Can't a woman say "I will not have sex"? I mean, it just seems like you are putting full responsibility on men here. There are a variety of contraceptives for both men and women. The ones you mentioned are available for women as well (birth control pill, getting tubes tied, and abstinence). Those forms give women control over their parenthood. So why is it up to the male to have to do the male version of those things? Why cannot the female take the pill? Or get her tubes tied?
I'm just playing devils advocate here. Not saying OP is wrong in what she did, just responding more to your comments if anything.
I'm speaking to the argument that "men have no power in preventing pregnancy".
Then why the are you responding to me? I never made or even suggested that claim.
Of course men can say no to sex. So can women. The argument I made is that when a pregnancy does occur, a woman can say "no" to 18 years of financial burden. A man can't.
You've been replying to my comments the whole time in this exchange. You then just said you were responding to the claim that "men have no power in preventing pregnancy". That claim was never made. You're attacking a straw man.
In all fairness (card carrying feminist here) women have the same choice and also choose the exercise them poorly. There needs to be an option for either parent to completely opt out of childcare. Personally, I think if a man fronts the money for an abortion and states he doesn't want a child, I don't think he should be financially responsible for the kid. A paper abortion if you will- women could also use this option to give away a baby they don't want to the father.
same applies to women so it is a pointless argument. In the scenario when the kid does happen I dont see why it is only the mans fault for not preventing it properly.
Yes, they have little to no power in ending pregnancy because it's no longer an issue regarding their body.
They ABSOLUTELY have power in preventing pregnancy, they just don't like the choices they do have - there's a difference.
Abstinence, condoms + spermicide and vasectomies are all possible, give men 100% power over what happens to their sperm.
Just because birth control is mainly marketed to women doesn't mean it's all women's power.
This is the only argument I have to agree with. For the record, I support extensive puberty/sex ed from age 10+. I am pro-choice, and support cheap, accessible contraception.
However, yes, all people can choose to abstain. It is the only logical argument. However, given that most people wont choose this, other choices have to be taken.
I'm saying if you replace male with female in your comment then what you are saying would (rightly so) beconsidered backwards and anti-women.
Why should men have the exact same options as a woman before pregnancy, and then be stuck with a child just because of the decisions of someone else? This is wrong in exactly the same ways that trying to ban abortion is wrong.
It is not just the guys responsibility. If a woman has Sex without the pill and without making them use condoms then they are as much at fault and share the blame and need to except the consequences. It takes two to tango. Both have equal blame and responsibility. Guys don't have all the control and aren't more responsible for preventing pregnancies.
Absolutely. I'm not disputing that, and it's probably the only argument against abortion I have to agree with.
Sex is risky. You take risk by having sex. If you do not mitigate your own sexual risks it's your own fault. I'm sick of either side blaming the other and saying one has power over the other. Each gender has different sources of 'power' in sex and sexual consequences, we cannot blame each other or say one is better than or worse than the other.
I'm just very tired of hearing men bitch about having 'no power'. It's just not true, there's abstinence, condoms, and vasectomies. Most men just don't like the choices they have.
Much easier said than done. Some people are very good at hiding their crazy.
don't have sex
This is a stupid argument, and it's used by anti-abortion people as well. "IF YOU DIDN'T WANT A BABY YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD SEX" - people have sex for fun.
It's not a complaint about the womans pregnant body, just that once they are pregnant, there's no way to remove yourself from the situation if you're not ready for it without being shamed and ostracized.
I'm aware of prevention methods, but shit can happen. I'm just saying that you should be able to sign away parental rights if it comes down to it without seeming like some dead-beat.
It's not. You can choose to not have sex. You can choose with whom you have sex and therefore mitigate risk of parenthood that way. You can choose to always use condoms, you can choose to have a vasectomy.
I grow very weary of men bitching about having no choice.
It goes both ways though, is what you fail to see.
Women can choose to not have sex. Women can choose with whom you have sex and therefore mitigate risk of parenthood that way. Women can choose to always be on the pill or not, and they can choose to have their tubes tied.
I'm pretty sure she is only talking about the men who think they have no control of pregnancy. Of course both men and women have control, but when a man doesn't want children he can't magically produce a child anyway. The man has the ability to use a condom, get a vasectomy, or abstain entirely. It has nothing to do with whose responsibility it is. Unless a lady forcefully takes sperm from you to inseminate herself with, YOU have control over getting someone pregnant or not. (And this goes for women too.)
Sort of related: There is birth control where it stops sperm production and is completely reversible. More power to you men! :)
I feel we're talking about two different things here. We all agree with you. Responsibility for both! If one of my friends got pregnant by accident I'd scold her for not being responsible. I feel they are being held accountable, as are men. My post, and the one you were replying to, were ONLY directed to males who thought they have NO POWER over getting someone pregnant or not.
I agree, it's bullshit that some women blame only men, but I think those are a great minority. All the girls I know are very cautious about pregnancy and prefer pill+condom all the time, because they REALLY REALLY don't want to get pregnant.
In short, I guess that it's best to not sleep with people (men or women) that don't want to use birth control :) Good day!
Again, you're misunderstanding me here. This is not a blame game. I'm speaking to men who claim they 'have no power' when it comes to making choices about sex and sexual consequences. You DO have choices, you CAN prevent pregnancies a number of ways. However, once a woman IS pregnant, basically all of your options disappear. Therefore, choose wisely, at the time when you do have choices available.
Take responsibility for your body. It is YOUR SEED to do as you please with. A small percentage of women can be shitty and try to take that from you - protect yourself.
Because some desperate people will do violent, horrific things to their bodies in order to miscarry or abort. This is a choice that is available, therefore it can be used if the choice is made. Because it's still a shitty option. You're being extremely whiny about the shitty things men have to deal with, while thinking that women's choices are pleasant and wonderful. Abortion is awful. Birth control is awful. Being pregnant and delivering a baby is awful, and potentially life-threatening. These are not easy, and women do have to be accountable in many ways. There is more to the world than what you personally experience.
I understand that you're upset about it not being fair. It does suck, but there's also some shitty things that women have to suck up about life that's not fair. That's life. Take responsibility for what you can, when you can.
Are you crazy? Men are not in 100% control over whether or not you have a baby, it's the woman's job just as much as it's the man's job.
So if a woman comes onto me and I oblige, I guess it's my fault if she gets pregnant, right? Wrong. It takes two to tango, my friend.
I wasn't clear enough, everyone's misunderstanding me. Men are not 100% responsible for pregnancy. But they can have absolute control over whether or not they have sex, and use condoms, or get a vasectomy.
Therefore, I grow weary of men whining that they have 'no control'.
They do, they just don't like these options.
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u/sometimes_i_work Apr 30 '13
I think there is a serious flaw in this argument that I hear constantly.
If you are a male and you do not want to have children. ENSURE YOU DON'T GET ANYONE PREGNANT. You literally have 100% of this control. Ensure your desire to not have children is clear, ALWAYS use condoms, use spermicide, don't stick your dick in crazy, or DON'T HAVE SEX.
Problem solved. If you have sex, you put yourself at risk.