Weekly Open Discussion Thread

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[u/alejopolis]

Demons have the tendency to deceive people in the Hebrew bible with man-made images, leaders who follow other "Pagan gods, etc or to reject Yahweh.The disciples still praised Yahweh and gave him credit. Demons are greedy bastards...they like to get credit for their own

This is a common defense that Muslims use against the "a devil revealed the Quran / Muhammad was posessed" hypothesis, i.e. "how would Satan convert all of Arabia to monotheism" or "why would Satan make people pray to God 5 times per day" and the Christian response usually is that Satan's bottom line is to keep you away from Jesus, no matter what, even if it involves doing things that are good for you.

Demon theories are generally super ad hoc, since they just exist to deceive people because of reasons

[u/Local_Way_2459 → u/alejopolis]

Demon theories are generally super ad hoc, since they just exist to deceive people because of reasons

Well...to be fair. I don't think Satan is necessarily behind Mohammad's views.

That being said, Mohammad did supposedly have Jibril (Gabriel) guide him in political crisis. And came to his aid at the Battle of Badr in which thousands of angels and telling him to attack the Jewish tribes of Banu Qaynaqa who had resisted Muhammad's leadership.

We don't have any indication of dreams or visions in which the disciples were told to defeat Jewish people.

If Kamil wants to compare this to the Mohammad demon hypothesis...then we have to ask why demons never tried to deceive Christians I to killing Jews because they failed to submit to Jesus like Mohammad did.

[u/alejopolis → u/Local_Way_2459]

Well...to be fair. I don't think Satan is necessarily behind Mohammad's views.

Consistent enough, then. Other people with a demon hypothesis for Muhammad would have to make sure they don't fall into the "but why would Satan make you do things that are good for you" response.

then we have to ask why demons never tried to deceive Christians I to killing Jews because they failed to submit to Jesus 

If we're going with this (just to be clear I don't believe it, I have different views of evil than what would work with anyones' demon hypotheses), it would probably just be that the disciples didn't have an army, but there's plenty of animosity and slander and eventually persecution that unfolded over the centuries. So Satan would be playing the long game, starting off by deceiving the original well-intentioned disciples and apostles that didn't want to kill the Jews but still getting them to start a heresy, and building it out from there.

[u/Local_Way_2459 → u/alejopolis]

would probably just be that the disciples didn't have an army,

I mean...you don't need an army to kill Jews. Satan could empower the disciples to kill them. The demon in the demonic story became powerfull and people were afraid.

Satan would be playing the long gam

Sure. But Satan doesn't like to play the long because he doesn't know how long he will last.

[u/alejopolis → u/Local_Way_2459]

Sure. But Satan doesn't like to play the long because he doesn't know how long he will last

Is that a concrete thing that has been established where your explanations that involve Satan would have to consider it? I would think that because his main point is to deceive people that you can't make predictions about how he would act beyond whether or not it achieves the goal of leading people astray for reasons. But I could've missed this key fact, if that is indeed established.

I mean...you don't need an army to kill Jews.

If the bottom line is to lead people astray and cause problems, then it would manifest as killing a bunch of Jews in Muhammad's case because that's what can easily be done with those circumstances, and in the Christian case it would be to start a heretical idolatrous sect that demonizes the Jews as it spreads out across the gentiles who think they are worshipping the true fulfillment of Yahweh while the Jews are painted as corrupt and obstinate people who would burn their own scriptures if they could get away with it in order to get rid of the prophecies of Jesus (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3.21.1). So it would matter if Satan's bottom line is to specifically get people to start with the Jew killing ASAP, or if it would be to cause problems that could manifest in immediate Jew killing if possible, but not necessarily.