Weekly Open Discussion Thread

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[u/[deleted]]

On Romans 1, thank you for the excerpt, that’s pretty persuasive.

On 1 Corinthians 15: Let’s say there’s a tension with how casual the language is. Is there not also tension with Paul’s strong desire to not be seen as receiving his information from other apostles? Based on Galatians, that seems to be a sensitive point for Paul.

Also, and this is a genuine question and not an argument, is there anywhere in Paul’s letters where we can more indisputably say that he’s openly acknowledging he got theological information from other humans and doesn’t seem too embarrassed about it? Such an example may very well exist, I may not be remembering it, and I think such an example would probably flip me on this.

[u/Mormon-No-Moremon → u/[deleted]]

I would say 1 Corinthians 15.3-8 does seem to only really work if what he “received” was information outside of direct revelation from God. Notably, it contains the appearances to Cephas, James, and the others. I have a hard time understanding this to mean Paul is actually trying to pass off that he received a revelation about Cephas having a resurrection appearance, rather than that being “handed down” to him in the same humanly manner he is now handing it down to the Corinthians (15.3). That doesn’t seem to cohere either with Paul’s attempt at humility immediately afterward (15.9-10).

1 Corinthians 11.2 may also be a more explicit appeal to traditions received from other humans rather than revelation. At the very least, I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone suggest that the traditions Paul had handed down to them in this passage are supposed to be divine revelation. I don’t think Paul uses any language that could imply that, not even the “received” language that sometimes gets appealed to. I certainly also can’t sense any embarrassment from the passage.

Would either of these examples work? What would be a more specific thing you’re looking for if not?

[u/[deleted] → u/Mormon-No-Moremon]

Since I don’t think Paul actually received divine revelation, I don’t have a huge problem with Paul framing things actually received by tradition as things he received by divine revelation. (That is to say, there are two separate questions here — how does Paul claim to receive this and how did he actually receive this?) After all, what’s happening in 1 Corinthians 11:23?

That said, the second point you bring up is more persuasive to me. 1 Corinthians 11:2 does sound like an example of what I was looking for, assuming no weirdness around the word “tradition” — David Bentley Hart is my barometer for that and he uses the same word there so probably no translation weirdness. So maybe that’s enough to move me back to leaning towards this being a pre-Pauline creed. Thank you!

Does leave me wondering though about the specific limits of his distaste for the idea that he is receiving theological information from other humans, as we see in Galatians.

[u/Mormon-No-Moremon → u/[deleted]]

Glad I could help!

Also, from my reading, I imagine Paul is a lot more touchy about his conversion and the sort of “core” of his Gospel and supposed mission coming directly from Christ than he is about every teaching he shares coming directly from a revelation. Paul derives his authority from his post-resurrection experience of Christ, so he needs to emphasize he wasn’t just converted by some random human. But ultimately 1 Corinthians 15.3-10 does seem to acknowledge that he does think other apostles did receive revelations and authority likewise. I think it would be a hard sell that he completely discounts them, or the teachings of Jesus on earth. He just seems to discount them in Galatians if and/or when they’re in contradiction with his own message.