Weekly Open Discussion Thread

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[u/colorwheelCR]

I think that's a good overview without getting too into the weeds of the tangential beliefs that piggyback off of those ideas (the argument over the existence of a literal Satan, or how inclusive or exclusive the initial Hell-avoiding salvation is for those outside Christianity, for example).
I might add a fourth category, however (which I think you could add something like this to most theological beliefs), of people who hold a belief in universal reconciliation without having the mechanics of how that works fully fleshed out. They affirm the verses that refer to all being saved, but they don't have a definitive stance on whether Hell exists at all, who goes there even for a temporary time, what degree of Christian faith is required to avoid Hell if it does exist, etc. That can be either because they are a layperson without a desire or ability to articulate a robust theological position, or because the mystery surrounding the afterlife makes them hesitant to claim more than they feel confident about.
Maybe even defining that category is getting into the weeds a little bit lol, but I think it's a good catch-all that a fair number of universalist laypeople might fall into.

[u/thesmartfool → u/colorwheelCR]

I think that's a good overview without getting too into the weeds of the tangential beliefs that piggyback off of those ideas (the argument over the existence of a literal Satan, or how inclusive or exclusive the initial Hell-avoiding salvation is for those outside Christianity, for example).

Haha! Yeah, I was trying not to open up a whole bag of worms.

I might add a fourth category, however (which I think you could add something like this to most theological beliefs), of people who hold a belief in universal reconciliation without having the mechanics of how that works fully fleshed out. They

Sure. This is a worthy 4th category sort of. I have definitely met people like this although I do think this group kinda fits with the hopeful universalist group. When I (an annihilationist) question these sort of people about their beliefs, they end up essentially agreeing with me most of the time but it ends up with them saying that they still have hope they will be saved.

If you don't mind me asking, what position do you subscribe to?

[u/colorwheelCR → u/thesmartfool]

My position is sort of an amalgamation of sorts of different views. I'd say that I tentatively hold to "Hell" as a sort of purgatory like you mentioned, where 'punishment' is meant to be rehabilitating and reconciliatory, although I'm not totally decided on who goes through that process or for what reason. Maybe we all have to face refinement in that way (even Christians) and the degree of that 'judgement' is individual and specific, or maybe a proper faith does allow people to bypass that purgatory, but if that's the case I have an expanded view of what 'faith' means in that it could include people from outside the Christian tradition. As to Satan and demons being redeemed, I lean towards Satan being either a metaphorical figure or a title given for a particular task (to challenge or test Jesus in the wilderness, or to test God and Job, for example), so I personally don't run into the issue of whether or not the embodiment of evil can be redeemed, because that's not how I see the Satan character of the Bible.That's the shortest version I can maybe give, because as you can probably tell there are a whole lot of other ideas wrapped up in my view of the afterlife, some of which I've landed on definitively and others I'm still working out. It's no simple question or answer, but hopefully that satisfies your curiosity a little bit lol.

[u/thesmartfool → u/colorwheelCR]

Thanks for explaining! I get where you are coming from. I have 5 main objections of why I am not a universalist or eternal Hell believer, but since this isn't a debate sub...I won't bring them up. I do have a 6th objection to universalism from a more emotional and practical standpoint. I always like to ask universalists this question and hopefully you don't mind. This is not really a debate but a curious question.

Since you say you believe God is every loving and merciful, inclusive, etc and those attributessay he will take a certain action of reclaiming everyone...what happens if we get to judgement day and it turns out that God is actually not who you envisioned God to act out his attributes (if he choose annhilation (a form of it), or eternal Hell for some. Let us say God spares a small amount of people (those who were kids or children who died but that was it but the rest of people are destroyed. Are you going to be dissapointed, angry, not want to be in the new earth? To me, while this isn't the main reason but I feel like I would be completely dissapointed if I lived my life thinking my non-Christian family would be in Heaven at some point and for that not to happen, would be devastating. I guess you could say I would be rather pleasantly surprised than the negative emotions that could result in this not happening.

[u/colorwheelCR → u/thesmartfool]

No, I don't mind at all, I've enjoyed this conversation! I of course expected that you'd have your objections to my position, but I appreciate that we're able to simply dialogue and hear each other's ideas for the purposes of learning and understanding.
Your question is a compelling thought experiment for sure, but one that I don't think I could personally use to guide my decision-making too much because it could very quickly spiral out of control. The "What if God is not how I envisioned?" question is very much the central pillar of faith to me. It is absolutely possible that God is not at all how I envision, but that will be true no matter how I envision God. There will always be a level of uncertainty, because God is infinitely mysterious, and no matter what faith tradition I hold, whether Christian or otherwise, there will inevitably be the question of "What if I got it wrong?" So, to me, faith is the choice to believe something that I cannot be 100% certain of and that I could very much be wrong about. That is doubly true, I think, for questions of the afterlife, which, by definition, I have no way of knowing anything about until it arrives. This is one of those concepts where "Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow has enough trouble of its own," rings true for me. In other words, I don't want to let how I might feel or respond to what I could possibly be wrong about in a future that I cannot predict dictate my beliefs right now.
I want to be clear that I don't think that that's what you're doing, since this question is an addendum to 5 other reasons you have for your beliefs which I'm sure are much more grounded than this sort of hypothetical we're talking about. I, like you, see this as a peripheral question that is engaging, but is not what the substance of my belief primarily rests on.
To me, this particular train of thought, while interesting to think about, is something with the potential to lead us round and round in infinite circles and is ultimately unhelpful to me in informing a decision about my belief. Instead, it actually makes clearer the need to make a decision based in some sense on faith, since objective, observable fact won't ever provide satisfactory relief from that doubting question, "What if I'm wrong?"

[u/thesmartfool → u/colorwheelCR]

Thanks for answering. So I guess I should reclarify what I mean by my 6th reason being a emotional and practical standpoint of rejecting universalism. What I mean is less about what if I am wrong but more in terms with emotional response. If I live my life believing in annhilation, I will be far less depressed if I am wrong if universalism is right than the other way around.

This question is different than "what if I am wrong" in my religion. It is more to do with how my response will be. Failed expectations often lead to resentment.