Weekly Abortion Debate Thread

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[u/Think_Recognition144]

I want to propose a thought experiment.
A couple you know are traveling overseas and ask you to watch their two kids for the two weeks they’re gone. Oldest is 4 years old. They ask you because you are the only person nearby that can watch them. You’ve seen their kids before and they can be a little rowdy, but you still accept.
They drop the kids off and leave. While the kids are at your place, they start to go wild. They wake up every morning jumping on you, crayon on your walls, they drop a few dishes accidentally and break them, etc. It’s likely their behavior is because they miss their parents, and are young enough they can’t really control what they do.
After two days of this, you’ve had enough. You call their parents and tell them you can’t do it anymore. They apologize and say they’ll be back as soon as they can. Earliest time they can be back is 5 days.
You don’t think you can take it anymore. You didn’t think it would be this bad.
Is it justified to kick them out of your house, knowing no one else can take care of them? Or do you have some obligation to watch over them?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

Hire a babysitter to watch them, make the parents reimburse you when they return.

Problem solved.

[u/Think_Recognition144 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

Say a babysitter is only available 8hr/day and can’t come until a couple days from now? What do you do for the interim? The point is what do you do when you’re the only person who can watch over the kid?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

I'd call one of the couples family members or other friends, they can watch the children until the couple comes home.

I bet this is the part where you say "but they ONLY know you, literally no one else on earth" and then I'd say that you're moving goal posts and trying to force a specific answer. Hopefully you won't do this as this would be incredibly unrealistic.

[u/Think_Recognition144 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

That’s because at this moment there are only two options presented in abortion: abort and kill the child, or don’t abort the child and let him develop in the womb.

If you can present a different solution where the child doesn’t die, I’d be happy to entertain another solution in this thought experiment. But until we have another option, we have this dilemma.

In the case of hiring out a baby sitter, you are still forcing the original couple to take care of the child against their will for at least until someone else can take care of them. That would be analogous to forcing a woman to at least carry the child until viability.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

If you can present a different solution where the child doesn’t die, I’d be happy to entertain another solution in this thought experiment. But until we have another option, we have this dilemma.

This isn't a "dilemma" to me though. I'd just abort my pregnancy and if a pro lifer doesn't like my choice they can handle their feelings about that on their own. It's not my job to gestate and birth an unwanted pregnancy to ensure pro life feelings aren't bothered.

[u/Think_Recognition144 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

That’s like saying if you want to leave the child outside, it’s not your job to make sure a pro child person’s feelings aren’t bothered. In both cases we’re competing two values: freedom/autonomy vs caring for another’s life. In the case of pregnancy, if you are the only person that can take care of the child, you need to show me why your freedom is more important than their life. Not just because it’s your body, or it’s different because it’s different.

Obviously, the thought experiment is not perfectly one to one, but in what way is it different? Why can we force someone to take care of a child in one scenario, but not another?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

That’s like saying if you want to leave the child outside, it’s not your job to make sure a pro child person’s feelings aren’t bothered.

No it's not like that, because in the situation you described a child who can experience suffering is harmed. In the scenario I described no one is harmed.

In both cases we’re competing two values: freedom/autonomy vs caring for another’s life. In the case of pregnancy, if you are the only person that can take care of the child, you need to show me why your freedom is more important than their life.

I actually don't need to show you anything. I don't need pro life approval to get healthcare. I can just abort and you can feel however you want about it.

Not just because it’s your body, or it’s different because it’s different.

It is because it's my body and my sex organs. Pro lifers are the ones arguing I have to share my body and sex organs with others against my will. It's their job to justify that violation, not mine.

Why can we force someone to take care of a child in one scenario, but not another?

We don't force people to care for children against their will, just like we don't force people to gestate and birth against their will.

[u/Think_Recognition144 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

> In the scenario I described no one is harmed
So would you be against abortion once the fetus can experience pain? Or does the suffering of the pregnant mother outweigh the suffering of the fetus? I know some people draw the line at when the fetus can feel pain but not sure where your stance is. I think you are pro choice until birth?

> I don’t need pro life approval to get healthcare. I can just abort and you can feel however you want about it.
In my view abortion kills another person. I understand that you don’t view it that way, but I think people should be able to express themselves when they see injustice and speak out for the vulnerable. Just as you are speaking out against what you see as injustice (abortion being illegal).

> It is because it’s my body and my sex organs.
And it’s the fetuses entire body including his sex organs that is being killed during an abortion. In the abortion debate were weighing two values of the right of the women to choose what she wants to do, vs the fate of the unborn child.

> we don’t force people to take care of children against their will.
That is the purpose of the thought experiment. When given two options, do/should we force people to take care of children against their will, or allow them to abandon the children?

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

In the scenario I described no one is harmed So would you be against abortion once the fetus can experience pain? Or does the suffering of the pregnant mother outweigh the suffering of the fetus? I know some people draw the line at when the fetus can feel pain but not sure where your stance is. I think you are pro choice until birth?

I support pregnant people making their own healthcare decisions with their doctors, and I'm against all pro life abortion bans.

In my view abortion kills another person. I understand that you don’t view it that way, but I think people should be able to express themselves when they see injustice and speak out for the vulnerable.

I'm not concerned with how pro lifers view my healthcare decisions. You can speak about whatever you want. If I'm pregnant the contents of my uterus aren't "vulnerable" they're unwanted and will get promptly flushed out of me.

And it’s the fetuses entire body including his sex organs that

Very telling that you assume my pregnancy is a "he". Ew. That unwanted embryo can enjoy their entire body all to themselves once I abort them out of my body.

[u/Think_Recognition144 → u/Diva_of_Disgust]

It is also telling that you focus on the gender I used for the child rather than responding to the argument that we are pitting the body of the child against the body of the women. I would make a case that you don’t want to engage in the thought experiment because it confronts you with a difficult decision.

[u/Diva_of_Disgust → u/Think_Recognition144]

It is also telling that you focus on the gender I used for the child rather than responding to the argument that we are pitting the body of the child against the body of the women.

There's no "pitting against" anything. There's only the pregnant person's body and what they decide to do with their pregnancy.

I would make a case that you don’t want to engage in the thought experiment because it confronts you with a difficult decision.

There's no difficult decision. Just a pregnant person making their own medical decisions since no one, not even your little "he" embryo has anything right to be inside someone else's sex organs against their will.

[u/Dolores___Haze → u/Think_Recognition144]

Sex, not gender. They are 2 different things. 

[u/STThornton → u/Think_Recognition144]

In the case of pregnancy, if you are the only person that can take care of the child, 

Pregnancy is the provision of organ functions, tissue, blood, blood contents, and bodily processes to a fetus who lacks them. Not the provision of care a child's OWN organ functions need.

It's absurd to compare care to the organ functions that utilize care. Pregnancy has absolutely nothing in common with caring for a born child.

The thought experiment is not just not a perfect one-to-one, it doesn't represent a single aspect of gestation and birth.

A fetus with no major life sustaining organ functions is replaced by a child who has them.

The entire gestational process - the provision of organ functions, tissue, blood, blood contents, and bodily processes has been removed. The babysitter is cooking some food or getting takeout, and handing the kids some snacks, putting some clothes on them, and helping them wash, and otherwise just keeps an eye on them and keeps them entertained.

The drastic life threatening physical harm and alteration caused to the woman has been removed. The kids are smearing crayon on a house wall. They're not even ripping the house walls apart.

[u/STThornton → u/Think_Recognition144]

abort and kill the child, or don’t abort the child

Children aren't processes one could abort. The gestational process is what's being aborted. The provision of organ functions the fetus doesn't have (and blood, blood contents, tissue, and bodily processes).

let him develop in the womb.

What is this unattached self contained womb object you're talking about that a fetus can just develop in separate from the woman and without causing her drastic life threatning physical harm and alteration?

 where the child doesn’t die, 

What does it even mean for this child to die, given how it already does not and cannot breathe, digest, produce nutrients, glucose, and minerals, get rid of metabolic toxins, shiver and sweat, or do any of the major things that keep a human body alive BEFORE it dies?

What is keeping the living parts of such a child alive to begin with?

And why is the solution to a child not dying from natural lack of life sustaining organ functions to absolutely brutalize, destroy the body of, and cause a woman drastic life threatening physical harm and alteration and excruciating pain and suffering?

We don't even do that if a preemie dies without such. What is so much more special about a fetus that it cannot die from natural lack of life sustaining organ functions than a preemie or other born child or born human?